Lion - stalk vs. bait

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Adrian,
I can't speak for other outfits, but will tell you how our Lion hunts are conducted. Maybe we are very fortunate to be able to do them like this because of the type of market we have. We definitely have a lion season. When I say this, I mean, there is a definite date range of when our Lion hunts happen and I think this is the most important factor that allows us to do it the way we do. Most our lion hunts are for Scandinavians, and their hunting time is very early and very late in the year. I'm speaking about early January stuff. That early.
The agent that brings them, organizes big groups, so there are a couple of hunters who wish to shoot lion. The groups come in thick and fast during this short time as well and start early Jan until around end March.
Keep in mind, that we know who wants to shoot what so have an exact number of cats needed.The entire quota gets released into the area. I don't just mean the quota for that group. I mean the quota for the number of hunters of the next group as well. When you have to hunt that many cats, you don't have the time to search for a single cat on that size ground. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, one of the area we hunt Lion is 60K acres.The more cats there are, obviously the better the success. As the number dwindle, we top up the numbers, so there is not an accurate way of saying how long a specific cat has been out. Unless you find one that had a specific mark or something like that.
Last year, we had to offer 6 lions to locals at a really low price, since they were not hunted successfully during that year. Those lions were in there a couple of months.
As has been mentioned, it would not make financial sense to leave them amongst the plains game until the next hunters arrive the following year.
 

spike.t

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marius whats the largest total that can be running around at one time in the 60k area, and what sizes are the other areas and what amounts would you release into them?
 

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marius whats the largest total that can be running around at one time in the 60k area, and what sizes are the other areas and what amounts would you release into them?

Spike,
The other area that we hunt is only about 8000 acres in size and not too far from the 60K acres place so terrain is very similar. Saying this, keep in mind a Lion's home range starts from around 4000 acres. ( Just some useless info) The number would be between 9-12 cats at one time. This number totally depends on how quickly the next group arrives and how big the group is.
 

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Phil

you're missing those subtle differences I mentioned. I haven't insulted individuals but I have said what I think of people who partake of this practice. Actually, I've been very polite about that. You certainly wouldn't want to hear my real opinion! However, if individuals think the cap fits and my description applies to them then that's their problem not mine.

I guess you can piss down people's backs and tell them it's raining, but I think most will know the truth. There's nothing subtle about it.

I've met CB a few times and communicated with him a fair bit and have read his opinions on captive bred lions many times but that doesn't make him right and me wrong. It just means we disagree. He has his opinion and i have mine. The fact that we disagree on the issue won't ever stop me buying him a beer and enjoying his company etc.

Nor does it make you right and CB wrong by the same logic which is exactly what I've been trying to say.

Do I know my comments on this are likely to be monitored by others (including antis)? ...... yes I do and what's more, I don't care a fig. If something is wrong, you can't ever make it right by hiding it....... It isn't my comments that are wrong, it's the practice of shooting captive bred lions that's wrong. The way to cure it isn't for me to stop my fight against the abhorrant practice, it's for people to stop marketing & shooting lions that don't know which way is up!!!!!!

The last thing I am is elitist....... what I am is an honest man debating against unethical practices and as I've said, I donï½´t care how many noses I put out of joint during that debate.

And be damned the unintended consequences?

You also accuse me of attacking the RSA lion shooting industry...... and you're wrong in that as well. What I'm doing is attacking the shooting of captive bred lions and if you think that practice is restricted to RSA alone, you're very wrong. It also happens in several other African countries.

As I said before, I'm not trying to prove you right or wrong. I'm only trying to get you to think about the way you're going about fighting the battle. There's this thing in war called collateral damage which needs to be considered. I'm not accusing you of anything more than not taking this into consideration or perhaps not giving it enough thought.

As to your idea of improving the populations of wild lions: Good luck with that one........ There's not a hope in hell you or the collective world and his dog will ever stop Afs killing lions at any and every opportunity and by any and all means possible..... Nor will you ever stop them breeding and encroaching on wilderness areas and that's the two biggest causes of the decline.

As for your last paragraph you may be right. If you are then the battle for hunting of wild lions and I would also say all trophy hunting in Africa has already been lost. Be that as it may, then we're simply milking the cow for the last few drops, the utter will soon be empty.

Personally I'm not willing to raise the white flag just yet. I may go down in defeat but it won't be without a fight. I introduced my first son to Africa this year and I intend to introduce my second in the near future. I hope they will be able to introduce their kids and I'll do what I can to see that that happens.

I've said enough in this thread and likely too much, so I'm out after this post.
 

Adrian

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Adrian,
I can't speak for other outfits, but will tell you how our Lion hunts are conducted. Maybe we are very fortunate to be able to do them like this because of the type of market we have. We definitely have a lion season. When I say this, I mean, there is a definite date range of when our Lion hunts happen and I think this is the most important factor that allows us to do it the way we do. Most our lion hunts are for Scandinavians, and their hunting time is very early and very late in the year. I'm speaking about early January stuff. That early.
The agent that brings them, organizes big groups, so there are a couple of hunters who wish to shoot lion. The groups come in thick and fast during this short time as well and start early Jan until around end March.
Keep in mind, that we know who wants to shoot what so have an exact number of cats needed.The entire quota gets released into the area. I don't just mean the quota for that group. I mean the quota for the number of hunters of the next group as well. When you have to hunt that many cats, you don't have the time to search for a single cat on that size ground. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, one of the area we hunt Lion is 60K acres.The more cats there are, obviously the better the success. As the number dwindle, we top up the numbers, so there is not an accurate way of saying how long a specific cat has been out. Unless you find one that had a specific mark or something like that.
Last year, we had to offer 6 lions to locals at a really low price, since they were not hunted successfully during that year. Those lions were in there a couple of months.
As has been mentioned, it would not make financial sense to leave them amongst the plains game until the next hunters arrive the following year.

Thank you for the insight Marius, much appreciated.
 

shakari

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Phil

At the risk of breaking my own rule about making it personal:

That attitude & indeed some others here prove yet again what's wrong with the industry & sport. You don't care about what's right or wrong. All you care about is getting the trophy on the wall at any cost & milking the clients for as much as possible in as short a time as possible.

Maybe I'm an old fart & an anachronism in this modern day but I hardly recognise the industry & sport that I entered so many years ago.

I was taught & have always believed that one must first be true to onself & live life honestly & ethically. To hunt to the rules of fair chase & sometimes to accept the game will come out on top.

I've always believed Sher Jung had it right with his words: "The jungle is the place to test one's mettle and one's skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it's own choosing and to outwit it in it's own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it"

Quite honestly, the industry & trade I was in is a totally different one to what it appears to be now. I'm helluva glad I'm not involved in the way it is today because it's not what I gave a large part of my life to.
 

Bhfs300

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As some of you know, I've been giving serious thought to booking a lion hunt. The outfitters that I have spoken with hunt them using spot and stalk. However, on hunting shows that I have seen I think that all, or nearly, all have been done using bait. I realize that shooting over bait is probably a lot easier for the cameraman. However, what is the reality of lion hunts in southern Africa?

I just saw a good show Hunting North America & Beyond with Team Cross Canyon Arms. Quagga Safaris Plains and Lion hunt is showing again Thursday and Sunday on 604 on Directv.

They show a spot and stalk more like find tracks and stalk I thought it was great.

BHFS300
 

peras

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I just saw a good show Hunting North America & Beyond with Team Cross Canyon Arms. Quagga Safaris Plains and Lion hunt is showing again Thursday and Sunday on 604 on Directv.

They show a spot and stalk more like find tracks and stalk I thought it was great.

BHFS300

Believe me,no matter who says what,tracking the lion down,is a great hunt.
 

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My synopsis of this whole deal here is the following...

There are some who are for fenced lion hunting and some against it. Some may have good reasons to support it and some may have good reasons why not to support it... All fair because everyone is entitled to their own opinions...

Then there are those who are evidently very bored with their lives and have nothing better to do than drink "vinho", stir s*#t on the Internet / hunting forums - and move the focus of just about every single thread they contribute to, to serve their own agendas...

This thread was started with an honest question that deserved a simple answer: "stalking lion vs. baiting lion - which is preferred?" Somehow it has evolved to a "canned lion hunt" vs. "ethical lion hunt" debate...

Of course this post is not aimed at anyone in specific as I didn't mention any names so I guess all is good and no one will be offended...
 

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Chris

You won't offend me bwana....... and do I have my own agenda? - You bet your arse I do. It's to ensure the next generation & the generations that comes after gets the chance to do what I've done, go where I've been & see what I've seen........ and as I've said previously, I firmly believe this captive bred lion crap is the biggest threat to that ambition in existence today.

Also as I've said before, I don't care a fcuk who I upset with my comments about it & that includes you & the (now former) President of that PHA I mentioned. (Actually, I'm glad to say we still get on but he wasn't best pleased with me at the time :) )

I was unaware you're a mod here but as you seem to think you are, you should have done you're job & asked me to stay on topic........ if you're not, I suggest you stick that criticism of topic change where the sun don't shine because I'm sure the mods would have told me to stay on topic if they had wanted me to.

And those comments were aimed at a particular person. (Albeit in retaliation to your comments)

Mark my words: One day in the future, African sport hunting WILL be banned. Hopefully, not in my lifetime but sooner or later, it'll happen & I'll bet that when the sad day comes, one of the largest contributory factors in the ban will be the shooting of captive bred lions being used as a tool to influence the general public who will then take up the call of the antis!
 

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.....
I was unaware you're a mod here but as you seem to think you are, you should have done you're job & asked me to stay on topic........ if you're not, I suggest you stick that criticism of topic change where the sun don't shine because I'm sure the mods would have told me to stay on topic if they had wanted me to.

And those comments were aimed at a particular person. (Albeit in retaliation to your comments)
...........

The sun is about to stop shining here today I'll jump in. Steve, I did not jump in on the "hijacking" because members seemed to be learning and sharing ideas on an important topic.


I am the "Super Moderator" (My friend Jerome's twisted sense of humour) with the attendant powers and long ago I adopted the "hands off" policy to allow the members to police themselves and not become an editor.

So, in effect Chris is a moderator.

Generally members are courteous. The reason most people enjoy this forum.


So on the topic of Stalking vs Baiting Lions, any thoughts?
 

shakari

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Brickburn

It's not very often you'll see a comment from me that's less than ultra polite and if there had been a problem, I'm sure a mod of some description would have communicated with me.

I was trying to shed informed light and not heat on the debate and I reckon I've done that for the most part so will for now at least, sign off.

Byeeeeeeee
 

siml

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Baiting is definitely for the free range lion hunting, not a common practise in South Africa(baiting). Your chances of shooting a wild lion are less than 6%. If you do happen to get that large male lion, what damage have you done to the pride? I did a bred lion about 12 years ago in SA, was an awesome hunt, with a truly close call, again last week, hunted one in the Kalahari, again on foot and tracking, it was a total rush. Lions that are bred for hunting, aren't some tame pussy cat, their natural instinct for survival kicks in immediately, it's not a walk in the park.

Shakari, I hunt on 690 000 acres in Mozambique, have lost count of the amount of buffalo I have hunted, and enough elephant, I believe that the way you portray people hunting bred lions is totally wrong, the 2 lion hunts I did in SA, were as close to the real deal as possible. I give the thumbs up to hunting bred lions.

Back to the topic, those final steps on the stalk is mind blowing, sitting in a blind at a bait.....when you hear the lion approaching...again mind blowing...which ever way you going to do the hunt, you will feel the rush!
 

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I have never participated in and nor am I likely to ever be able to afford a lion hunt. I have my opinions on both sides of the debate and my own hunting ethics but I would like to thank all participants for the education and insight they have provided on the subject.
Your time and experience is much appreciated.
 

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Brickburn

It's not very often you'll see a comment from me that's less than ultra polite and if there had been a problem, I'm sure a mod of some description would have communicated with me.

I was trying to shed informed light and not heat on the debate and I reckon I've done that for the most part so will for now at least, sign off.

Byeeeeeeee

You have a wealth of experience and informed light is exactly what is needed and you and anyone else is welcome to jump on in.
 

kal

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Back to the original subject as to stalk or bait. I will be hunting lioness with archery gear next Auguste in the RSA. I cant even pretend to understand the excitement of closing the distance on a 300lb professional killer. The idea of finding a track even excites me.
 

Martin

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Back to the original subject as to stalk or bait. I will be hunting lioness with archery gear next Auguste in the RSA. I cant even pretend to understand the excitement of closing the distance on a 300lb professional killer. The idea of finding a track even excites me.

Good plan, you will see, the whole story, the whole hunt IS exciting!
 

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First off Happy Thanksgiven to all!

Finally had time to read the whole thread and can only offer MY experience since having done a spot and stalk Lion in SA.
I have never been interested in a bait and wait style hunt (even though it was an option), I found tracking the cat for 3 days leading more to the overall experience then anything. I enjoy the physical aspect of an adventure more then anything and that leads me towards the Stalking choice. I think either way you go, you will have the time of your like, no doubt about it.
If you (OP) have any specific questions by all means please as ask as you can never gather enough info before making a choice. Take care

Nathan
 

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Well, this is my experience with lion hunting.

In 2010, I had booked a hunt for buffalo in Natal, a friend of mine wanted to hunt a lioness, and told me he would like me to join him for the hunt. I was very interested in the experience, and we arranged it with our booking agent, who is also a good friend.

So I went to Natal with my booking agent, hunted my buffalo, then we proceeded to JHB to pick up my friend and we set for a very large game ranch in NW P, on the Botswana border.
That first night we heard the lions roar, which is quite impressive. We could hear them the five days we spent there, and when my friend shot an eland, its backside had claw marks, so there were some lions loose in the ranch.

The hunt was done in the usual way, we set on the bakkie, looking for tracks, and when we found one which pleased the trackers and PH, we set on foot. The two trackers in front, hunter in center, PH on one side, booking agent on the other side, and me, about five meters behind.

Tracking went on for about three hours, until the lioness was spotted, the hunter took the shot, we waited about ten or fifteen minutes, tracked her again, and found her dead.

Is stalking more exciting than baiting ? For me, definitely, you don t know where the lioness is, in fact she might me stalking you. Besides, I hate sitting in a blind.

Is it more dangerous? I would say so, the PH and booking agent told us of many close calls with lion charges, and the PH himself was bitten in the arm by a lioness the following year.

Would I hunt a lion in this way? No, and I would not hunt any cat either, but that is a personal choice. I am not against my fellow hunters doing it, whether it is bait, stalk, free range or bred, as long as it is done in an ethical way.
 

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