Lion - stalk vs. bait

Mtgoat

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As some of you know, I've been giving serious thought to booking a lion hunt. The outfitters that I have spoken with hunt them using spot and stalk. However, on hunting shows that I have seen I think that all, or nearly, all have been done using bait. I realize that shooting over bait is probably a lot easier for the cameraman. However, what is the reality of lion hunts in southern Africa?
 

enysse

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Depends where you hunt, if it's behind high fence it will probably be spot and stalk. If it is free range it will be by bait most of the time, unless they are hanging around in a general area...then spot and stalk is possible.
 

Mtgoat

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Why is stalking preferred? Isn't it more dangerous?
 

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In RSA most of the lions are pen raised and then released "X" number of days before the client arrives. Not much in the way of free range lion in RSA. Some of the properties they are hunted on are rather large. So driving the roads looking for tracks or the lion itself seems to be more effective and cost efficient than baiting. For instance, I have seen RSa lioness hunts advertised for under $5000. Bait is not included in the offer. Price could go up a significant amount if you have to add bait to price. At that kind of price they can't afford to include bait. Most of the hunters doing this kind of lion hunt have a more limited budget than those doing the 21 day kind in Tanzania or Zim. Basically more budget friendly. Bruce
 

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Adrian

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After the bad press over the last few days, I suggest a huge amount of research is done and a hunt is booked that embraces the ethics of fair chase.
I can't imagine a worse thing than to shoot a pen raised lion released into unfamiliar territory to be shot at by someone who just wants to shoot one.
Free range and fair chase would be the only way to go in my personal opinion and definitely not choose your method because it benefits a cameraman.
 

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......... However, what is the reality of lion hunts in southern Africa?


Botswana: No hunting
Mozambique: Free Range
Namibia: Some Free Range
RSA: Vast majority are high fenced. There might be an occasional escapee from Kruger hunted in the adjacent large reserves.
Tanzania: Free Range
Zambia: No hunting (at the moment)
Zimbabwe: Free Range.

There are other countries in Sub-Saharan where you can hunt Lions as well.

Methods:
Tracking, chance encounter, baiting.
 

Martin

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Donï½´t want to say pro or contra to any of the types, to me itï½´s a personal decision.

Just two things to think about:

- Spot and stalk in a - lets say 20000 acres area, fenced. Is that a "real" hunt?
Many hunters say that they never want to hunt in any fenced areas, no matter how big the Areas are.

- Sitting in a blind and wait for a Lion, unfenced area. Is it a "real" hunt to sit and wait? (I know, itï½´s more than that)

I hunted Lion in RSA, huge area. That "hunt" was great for me, spot and stalk, exciting. I knew before what to expect in RSA regarding Lion hunting, and I was prepared and fine with it. As a foreign hunter there I have to trust those People what they say about the practise. If not, well, than I wouldnï½´t go there.
 

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Mtgoat-
I know the guy I hunt with in Namibia ( Jamy Traut jamy@jamyhunt.com ) hunts 2000 sq miles in the Caprivi all free range spot and stalk or bait and he also does 150,000 acres in the Kalahari also no fence and spot and stalk. Last time I was in the Kalahari with him we had one pride with 2 big males both with full black manes in one area for 3 days. I wasn't hunting lion though. Both were just a little too young anyway, they needed about 2 more years on them but boy did they look good.
 

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After the bad press over the last few days, I suggest a huge amount of research is done and a hunt is booked that embraces the ethics of fair chase.
I can't imagine a worse thing than to shoot a pen raised lion released into unfamiliar territory to be shot at by someone who just wants to shoot one.
Free range and fair chase would be the only way to go in my personal opinion and definitely not choose your method because it benefits a cameraman.

Wise words from Adrian there...... but it must also be acknowledged that pen raised lions don't just occur in RSA.

Even setting aside the illegal cross border lion transfers & an occasional breeder in other African countries, there's hardly a country in huntable Africa that doesn't have CITES permits issued for live lions to go to 'travelling circuses' every year....... Not only have I never seen a travelling circus in Africa in the 30 odd years I kicked around the continent, I don't know of a single person who has but nevertheless, those lions are going somewhere & obviously need replacing on a regular basis to warrant the new permits being issued so regularly.
 

DOC-404

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The finest, scariest, most adrenalin pumping, heart-stopping, jock-crapping lion hunt I've ever been involved in was one that you will never see advertised or for sale. It was a 'in the right place at the right time' event, a PAC hunt, over three days and nights, after a nasty pair of wild brothers that had developed an expensive taste for livestock. So, Mtgoat, come on over, buy a farm in the right area, and settle down. Then, buy lots of beer, I'll come and visit and, who knows, you might get lucky..!
:biggrin2:
 

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Just a thought, 20,000 acres is a huge area, Thats like 31 square miles at that point it is not a canned hunt. That is an area more than five miles by six miles. YOu can hunt for days an never see the animal you are after.
 

shakari

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Just a thought, 20,000 acres is a huge area, Thats like 31 square miles at that point it is not a canned hunt. That is an area more than five miles by six miles. YOu can hunt for days an never see the animal you are after.

There's more to it than just the size of the land.

The major questions about fenced areas is how long has the animal been there and how habituated to people & vehicles is it?

If it's only been there a day or two then it doesn't know the area and escape routes etc so even if no drugs are clouding the animal's mind, the hunter still has an advantage over a normal hunt and that just ain't right.

You might say what if the animal has been in the area for a considerable time? and the answer to that is it's highly unlikely. Let's first do some sums and work on just one lion eating one impala valued at US$100 per day.

If the animal is there for just 10 days, that's $1000 out of the potential profit or $3000 if it's there for just a month.

Then factor in that lions don't know the difference between an impala, a kudu or a sable etc and just an occasional kill like that can quickly cost the landowner thousands more.

If more than one lion on the property, costs can escalate incredibly quickly so it's in the landowners interests to have the animal on his property for as short a time as possible.

Now factor in the fact this animal is habituated and very possibly more likely to run towards a vehicle than away from it and you quickly realise that a pen bred and released lion has about as much in common with a true wild lion hunt as chalk and cheese.

I haven't even begun to address the issue of drugged animals here but if I did, you'd very quickly realise what a abomination that is as well.

I personally believe that these canned shoots and the fidiots who put them on you tube etc will be the death of all African sport hunting and the more & sooner we disassociate ourselves from these shameful practices the better.
 

Martin

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As a foreign hunter there I have to trust those People what they say about the practise. If not, well, than I wouldn?ï½´t go there.

Thatï½´s what I meant with trusting.
As far as I know the law says that the Lion to be hunted must be there for at least 6 months.
 

shakari

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Martin

That's not true. The proposed law did say a wilding period of 6 months but the breeder's association threatened to sue both the minister (van schalkwyk) and the government if the law was introduced so the spineless van schalkwyk removed lion from the list of 'dangerous animals' that the act applied to. Therefore there is no restriction on lions and according to SA, lions are not a dangerous animal. LOL

Even if it did apply, the wilding period would be impossible to enforce. The RSA Govt can't even keep run an efficient firearms licencing or e toll system so there's nooooo way on God's earth, they could ever efficiently monitor individual lions.
 

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Thanks Shakari.
You see? A foreign hunter comes to RSA, prepared himself for that what comes and - again - has to trust. OR: has to accept the practise.
 

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Any lion breeder that tells you a lion in a fenced area has been there for anything like 6 months is misleading you if only because of the costs involved.

If you allow 6 months at $100 per day & then add on 10% to allow for an occasional kudu or sable etc, you'd be up to around the $20K mark which is often considerably more than the total cost of the hunt........ and certainly almost always more than the total profit margin.

As I see it, anyone who shoots such an animal is nothing more than an interior decorator collecting trophies to make a pretty room & certainly not any kind of a true hunter.
 

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As I see it, anyone who shoots such an animal is nothing more than an interior decorator collecting trophies to make a pretty room & certainly not any kind of a true hunter.

And I completely agree with the above.

As ethical hunters we should be distancing ourselves from abhorrent practices such as this and not perpetuating the industry that causes so much harm to all of us as hunters.

A 'quick fix' for a cheap lion might satisfy a hunter in the short term in reality it causes more harm than good and makes someone else an awful lot of money.

There is a world of difference between hunting a lion and shooting a lion.
 

Norwegianwoods

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And I completely agree with the above.

As ethical hunters we should be distancing ourselves from abhorrent practices such as this and not perpetuating the industry that causes so much harm to all of us as hunters.

A 'quick fix' for a cheap lion might satisfy a hunter in the short term in reality it causes more harm than good and makes someone else an awful lot of money.

There is a world of difference between hunting a lion and shooting a lion.

I wouldn't have such problems with it if only people could be totally open and honest about it and admit it was more like shooting than hunting when they got their high fence lion in South Africa.
This has very much to do with trophy collecting and very little to do with hunting.

I have tried to tell people on another forum how it is done and what is going on when it comes to "hunting" farmed lions in South Africa, but I get accused of being a liar and that I totally lack knowledge about it.
Also from one representing a rather large hunting outfitter in South Africa.
 

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