45-70 for RSA?

[andries 318 wr]

I don't think the discussion should be about the killing capabilities of the 45-70.
The original post is not clear as where he will be hunting in RSA.
As your primary/only rifle on safari ,you will limed yourself with a 45-70.
Take a second more suitable rifle with. Let one of the trackers carry it. When the opportunity is there to use the 45-70 use it.

 

[Mountain Man]

the 45-70 was perfect for most of the shots., Its short for carrying in the brush. and packed way more thumping power than people give it credit for. 40 steps for a giant Eland, dropped a kudu in its tracks. It worked perfectly for most shots.

I did borrow my daughters 6.5 Creedmoor for a long range shot on a bushbok.

My next trip will be carrying that 45-70 cowboy gun as the trackers call it.

 

[Mountain Man]

My little experience with the 45/70 had a swedish client built himalef a double in 45/70 with a side by side shoutgun. Groupings were not great but the first shot out of the first barrel was sighted in with an Aimpoint.

Struggled to get close enough to game in bushveld environment luck has a big part in it. Finally got a shot a a blue wildebeest at close range. Shot placment was not good and 3 hours later finally found the beest with little blood trail.

Then a south african hunter wanted to hunt buffalo with his 45/70 and instead of using conventional bullets he got 350gr monolithic flat nose cup bullets made.

Suddenly with a proper scope it was much more flatter shooting and had a bullet that could penetrate 2 shots 1 was insutance and he had his buffalo bull.

So my advise if your bent on bringing the 45/50 for the game you seek get a mono bullet in 300 or 350gr push up the speed and make sure you will be hitting a 6" target at 200 meters with a scope on it.
Limiting yourself on a first hunt is frustating for both the client and the PH especially on a first trip.

This was my second trip to Africa. The gun was right on to the 150 yards I had envisioned and restricted my range to.

 

[Mountain Man]

Good show Mountain Man!

Recognize this old rifle with 96% the case capacity of the .458 Win Mag and firing 450 grain solids at 2150 fps? Shoots through buff and Elephant heads. Not bad for a cowboy gun, eh?
View attachment 424701
I heard all the same BS before the bullet testing Safari, but no one can ignore the fact that it did the job.

I have since been over with another Cowboy gun and took the buff to the left. First shot through the heart with a 400 grain Woodie and then another Woodie to the pelvis to drop it before the brush.
View attachment 424700
Darn those out of date Cowboy guns anyhow!
My 1895 will get two updates for Christmas;
1. Magnaport
2. Sling swivel soldered onto barrel 4 inches forward of the fore end.

I now have 400 grain loads up to 2150 fps to justify the Magnaport job.
I am sure I can speed up the 300 grain loads from 2250 fps to at least 2400 fps, but with my new supply of North Fork bullets, who needs the added speed? This old gun has become my favorite big bore stalking rifle!

I am sold on the performance of the 45/70. Plus its short and lightweight. Ok on the range yes it kicks, but on game you never notice the kick.

 

[Mountain Man]

What load were you shooting?

These were handloads, with a 300 grain semi jacketed hollow point and I had some leverrevelutions with 325gr. I really found in difference in the ammo.

 

[Mountain Man]

Neither is a good choice for the animals mentioned, you will be over limiting yourself on shot taking ability.
45-70 is a good pig gun

Well after my Safari. you could not be more wrong.

 

[Mountain Man]

We can all be supportive of our heritage, and that is great. But I think @IvW simply makes a very practical point more directly than I did. The 45-70 in Africa is rather like using a .410 on quail. In the hands of an expert, It works adequately - but is a mistake for both shooter and birds in the hands of most. It is why I prefaced my comment with the assumption the OP should have extensive North American experience with the caliber. If he does, he hopefully realizes and accepts the limitations he is placing on what may be a once in a lifetime experience.

First yes I am an experienced hunter. I have mostly hunted with my 45 year old 30-06 Rem. 700, and the M16A2 (those targets shot back) Years of training and going to strange countries) YEs I more than know the limit of the 45/70 and it preformed perfectly! Its perfect for the bushveld and plains game.

 

[CJW]

Glad it worked well for you. I shot 13 animals in Namibia and only one of them was well over 100 yds, a blue wildebeest at around 175ish. Th8e rest were 110ish and under. A 45/70 would have been just fine and fun to use. With modern loads and bullets I can't see why it wouldn't work just fine for a good shooter at 200yds or less.

 

[M McDindi]

Depending on where you go, meaning the terrane and cover and the anticipated average distance you expect to be shooting (based on terrane and cover), YES the 45/70 or 450Marlin is more than adequate/capable. Modern powders/bullets in modern lever guns or modern single shots or bolt actions are a completely different animal compared to the original black powder Springfield Carbine rifles.

I've hunted in NW Namibia with 1895 Marlins in 45/70 and 450 Marlin, #1's and H&R's in 45/70 and 450 Marlin and Siamese Mousers, a Custom pre-64 Win in 450 Marlin and a Custom Ruger 77 in 450 Marlin. Even used a little Remington (Biakal) DBL rifle in 45/70. Taken from Jackal to eland. Longest shots taken were under 180m. Between us, those rifles have accounted for at least 75 head.

Normal hunting loads for the lever guns is 425gr Cast Performance w/gc at around 1900-1950fps - best accuracy. Sighted dead on at 150m, basically just put the crosshairs in the vital triangle and squeeze. The bolt guns use 350gr TSX loaded to 2200-2300fps depending on which rifle and I take a few CEB 325 solids loaded to 2400fps, just in case.

I completed the RSA PH school in KZN with a Marlin 1895 in 450 Marlin. Chose it over a bolt gun because of the simulated "charge" shooting practical requirement. Outside of a semi-auto rifle, there is NOTHING faster shooting than a lever gun. I did cheat a bit as I was using a downloaded hand load of a 385gr hard cast with gas checks loaded to 1800fps. I could repeatability hit all three targets and have the gun cleared and safe in under 8 seconds while the other classmates were just getting their second shots off. After I completed the class, I stayed for a few days and took a nice hog, impala, blue w/b and a nice nyala.

Would I take it to the wide open spaces of say....the Karoo in RSA. Not if I had something else but, for where we hunt and how we like to hunt they have been just fine.

 

[Wiley64]

To me it seems like the wrong round as well. I’d rather bring a deer rifle or rent from the ph.

 

[1dirthawker]

To me it seems like the wrong round as well. I’d rather bring a deer rifle or rent from the ph.

this seems like a reoccurring theme on this thread. if a gun that shoots a 350 gr bullet at 2100-2150 fps and can easily shoot to 200 yards (scoped rifle) does not seem like enough gun to shoot plains game, well then one should not bring or hunt with it.

i have used the 45-70 semi extensively here in alaska. it kills moose, caribou, brown and black bears with authority. i suspect if one does not push out the distance too far, then it will do (and apparently has done) just fine in africa as well.

hunters go to africa all the time and hunt with open sights, double rifles, bows, etc. not many complain about their choice of weapon and quite honestly I don't understand the gripe on this thread either. if it is not for you, don't use one!!!! if you like the nostalgia, the effectiveness, the fast follow up shots then by all means bring it.

this argument against is why there are blondes brunettes and red heads, nobody is wrong, they just have different tastes. (or 308's, 300's, 338's, 9.3's and 375 for you gun guys)

 

[crs]

TT
Well said!

 

[sgt_zim]

well, as is my wont, I've been playing around with some math on momentum.

turns out that a 525 gr bullet, with an MV of only about 1625 fps, has more momentum than a 225 gr .338 bullet has at 200 yards. and the difference isn't trivial - that 525 gr bullet has about 25% more momentum.

that says nothing for the looping trajectory, but for large ruminants, here thinking domestically about nilgai, bison, moose, and elk, it's easy enough to sight in for MPBR and therefore not have to adjust for holdover out to about 200 or 225 yards.

 

[Philip Glass]

I believe you will struggle with the .45/70 in Africa but it can be done. Rimfire are not allowed.

 

[Tom Leoni]

Recently a buddy of mine and I came back from a RSA plains game hunt, with game ranging from impala to waterbuck. My buddy did spectacularly well with a scoped Marlin Cowboy in .45-70. His longest shot was about 265 yards--on waterbuck. He used Underwood Xtreme Hunter monolithic bullets, and they were all one-shot kills. So good did he do, in fact, that on our next safari he is planning to ditch the Ruger .308 he also brought, and to make it a one-gun safari with the .45-70.

I see no reason whatsoever not to take a .45-70 on a plains game hunt, especially with today's bullet selection.

 

[crs]

Tom,
Thanks for the information. I almost bought that same type Marlin Cowboy rifle years ago, but because I grew up with Winchesters, I went with the 1886 TD in 45-90 and it has performed well with bullets from 300 grains at 2200 fps ( tested some at 2600 but they were not necessary in Texas or Afrika) up to 450 grains at 2150 fps. They terminated a some big stuff in Afrika. Our bullet testing team also did well with an 1886 45-70 on that outing. Both rifles were not scoped and most of the animals shot were DG not PG. Ele and leopard at 20 yards and buff at many ranges up to 100 yards. Good sport!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

well, as is my wont, I've been playing around with some math on momentum.

turns out that a 525 gr bullet, with an MV of only about 1625 fps, has more momentum than a 225 gr .338 bullet has at 200 yards. and the difference isn't trivial - that 525 gr bullet has about 25% more momentum.

that says nothing for the looping trajectory, but for large ruminants, here thinking domestically about nilgai, bison, moose, and elk, it's easy enough to sight in for MPBR and therefore not have to adjust for holdover out to about 200 or 225 yards.

@sgt zim
Why is it the naysayers think the 45-70 is no good for a PG hunt. All my shots bar one were less than 200 yards and that was in the Kalahari region.
Based on your calculations and the average hunters capability I see no reason to leave it at home.
That big bullet at 1600 fps is going to penetrate well.
Know your cartridge and its trajectory and all will be well.

 

[375Fox]

@sgt zim
Why is it the naysayers think the 45-70 is no good for a PG hunt. All my shots bar one were less than 200 yards and that was in the Kalahari region.
Based on your calculations and the average hunters capability I see no reason to leave it at home.
That big bullet at 1600 fps is going to penetrate well.
Know your cartridge and its trajectory and all will be well.

From my perspective, asking about 45/70 in Africa makes me think inexperience. I’m not sure how it is in Australia but in the North East United States 45/70 is a popular deer gun, but often (from what Ive seen) these hunters have very limited experience outside their home area and not many other rifles. They think a 45/70 will go through any brush and have very limited understanding of bullets because they only hunt a couple times a year. The average shot on a deer is 50-70 yards and maybe you can harvest a couple a year during a short season. So when I see a post about 45/70 I often think they don’t recognize a difference from local hunting. This post didn’t start by asking about 45/70, but I think if a person would start out a post about 45/70 in Africa with their bullet testing, scope choice, practice ranges, anything to demonstrate an understanding of its limitations and what they are getting into they would receive a much more positive response.

 

[375Fox]

These were handloads, with a 300 grain semi jacketed hollow point and I had some leverrevelutions with 325gr. I really found in difference in the ammo.

Did you recover any bullets?

 

[Art Lambart II]

I don't own a 45-70 so I cant comment on its effectiveness and I have only been to Africa twice so I'm no safari expert but based on what I have seen the more flexiable your rifle is the better off you'll be. In my experience the bushveld allways buts up againt more open terrain providing the hunter with close and longer range shots. Some hunters find that flexibality in a 7x57 with its long, sleek 170 grain bullets, others prefer a 30-06 or 300WM with a 180 grain bullet, the really smart hunters use a 35 Whelen with a 225 grain Accubond or a Barnes TSX bullet. There is no question with the right bullet the 45-70 is a good round for PG under a 150 yards, after 150 yards their are alot better option avaiable.