Thought Provoking Question: How Many Of You Would Use A Smaller Calibre If It Were Legal?

[Velo Dog]

Hello again Major Khan,

You can please kindly mark me down for “no”.

I’ve never shot a leopard but, when watching them on video, while otherwise not disturbed, until the moment of impact, they do not appear so heavily built as to require .375 H&H ballistics.
Nonetheless, even in countries where lesser cartridges are permitted for leopard and if indeed I was interested in bagging a leopard, I likely would use a .375 H&H.
This one is my favorite hunting cartridge for non-dangerous game so, I am very well practiced with it.

I am too hyper active to sit still in a leopard blind/hide.
Nonetheless, if I ever decided to change my mind and hunt old Chuy, my personal choice would be as mentioned, the .375 H&H.
(If I ever hunt another Buffalo, most likely I will use at least a .404 or .416 and probably larger but, I shoot these well and they are appropriate for heavy boned animals).

If I ever was to hunt hippo on land or elephant, very likely I’d use either my .458 Lott or my .500 Jeffery.
My ideas on such a topic has little or nothing to do with how I feel others should choose their firearm/s but, everything to do with how I feel I should choose my firearm/s for whatever species I’m intending to stalk.

However, back to leopard specifically, in the event all countries allowing leopard hunting with the .375 H&H as their minimum by law, were to suddenly decide they would move their minimum downward to let’s say, the 7x57, 8x57 or .30-06, I would guess that just as many leopard would end up in the skinning sheds across Africa.

Cheers,
Paul.

 

[Quaticman]

I am going to throw a wrench into your equipment by suggesting that if given the opportunity, I would love to hunt Africa using my 1874 Sharps rifle chambered in .45 2.4". Using 96 grains of black powder, it launches a 550 grain plain lead bullet @ 1,380 fps. I know, the muzzle energy number is not very impressive however that combo was highly effective on American bison in the 1870's-1880's.
How do you think it would perform on African game?

 

[Matthias5662]

I've not hunted DG other than bears in North America. The 9.3x62 is more than adequate to stop these animals in their tracks. Bull moose drop dramatically too. My opinion to say I'd use the 9.3 as an all-round dangerous game rifle comes from familiarity with the rifle, the ballistics of the round, and the situations (limited as they are) to which I have been presented. I've never faced a charging buffalo. If so, I guess I'd feel more confident with something above a .40 bore in my hands or at least my PH's hands.

 

[steve white]

Hell, no. From the time the .280 Ross got Fritz Schindlar killed until the current craze of 6.5 bores for really big game got the wounding rates up, people have somehow thought that smaller was more sporting (tho certainly lighter in recoil.) The truth imo is that frontal area in a bullet can really put 'em down compared to the skinny penetrators within sane parameters. Even the so-called pipsqueak .35 rem. has knocked down more deer and black bear than would fit in the average cargo ship. Why? Because the hydro-dynamic forces really go to work STARTING at 35 cal., when the striking velocity is lacking (as it will be in really long range strikes that are so in vogue today.) I know, I love the 6.5 mannlicher, too. ( I am the owner of several Mannlicher-Schoenauers.) It seems to kill beyond its ability--but it is too easy to get beyond a skinny bullets' ability; there is just less margin for error, especially way out there. And WHY, can anyone explain the reason to me, when so many really satisfactory cartridges are available? Ask some elk GUIDES what they think of light weight cartridges if you want to get an earful. It's rare for one of them to back you up as an African Ph might do--and I've got nothing against Africa or its traditions. So for anything besides small to medium size game, or ringing a long range gong, I think it's inappropriate to be undergunned. Note that I haven't even started on dangerous game, as I give you the credit of better judgement there.

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

my humble opinion

have hunted all dangerous game and my finding is this
375, min for elephant, and rhino
375, 9.3 min for buff
400+ calibres for hippo on land
cats, lion and leopard, 30-06 min
300 wm for hippo brain shot in water

just my thinking and these are for clients perspective not PH

 

[Pondoro]

Hello again Major Khan,

You can please kindly mark me down for “no”.

I’ve never shot a leopard but, when watching them on video, while otherwise not disturbed, until the moment of impact, they do not appear so heavily built as to require .375 H&H ballistics.
Nonetheless, even in countries where lesser cartridges are permitted for leopard and if indeed I was interested in bagging a leopard, I likely would use a .375 H&H.
This one is my favorite hunting cartridge for non-dangerous game so, I am very well practiced with it.

I am too hyper active to sit still in a leopard blind/hide.
Nonetheless, if I ever decided to change my mind and hunt old Chuy, my personal choice would be as mentioned, the .375 H&H.
(If I ever hunt another Buffalo, most likely I will use at least a .404 or .416 and probably larger but, I shoot these well and they are appropriate for heavy boned animals).

If I ever was to hunt hippo on land or elephant, very likely I’d use either my .458 Lott or my .500 Jeffery.
My ideas on such a topic has little or nothing to do with how I feel others should choose their firearm/s but, everything to do with how I feel I should choose my firearm/s for whatever species I’m intending to stalk.

However, back to leopard specifically, in the event all countries allowing leopard hunting with the .375 H&H as their minimum by law, were to suddenly decide they would move their minimum downward to let’s say, the 7x57, 8x57 or .30-06, I would guess that just as many leopard would end up in the skinning sheds across Africa.

Cheers,
Paul.

235 grain TSX in .375H&H should be good on leopard..? It kills PG like the hammer of Thor..

 

[Tanks]

...

In other words , if you don't use an big bore rifle you can shoot DG with a smaller caliber , but never on your own. You must be accompanied in all cases by someone who has something suitable with them , whether that is now a legal requirement or in all cases for security. Is it so or not ?

I don‘t like this at all , but it doesn't seem to bother many.

Well, I seem to recall a post or two where it was said "the PH will have the bigger gun to back up".

In my view the only difference between a PH gun and a client gun would be not in class of caliber and capability, but in optics. If he has to, the PH will be shooting at much closer distances so most likely should have iron sights. The client can have optics or not based on his capabilities or the shots being offered.

Now, I have no issues with a client having a .4xx and the PH having a .4XX - .5XX caliber for DG. In both cases it is "enough gun".

 

[Forrest Halley]

What is not known about that fellow with the 7x57 is how many wounded elephants ran away, we'll never know. Also, I believe he was taking specific shots only. Also, the fact that one fellow was able to do it does not mean it is advisable. Would you try to stop an elephant charge at 15 meters with a 30-06? If you would, then you have much bigger balls than I do.

While I believe that WDMBell cherry picked the snot out of his data, I'm leaning in with my .30-06 at 15m. It's not an ideal situation, but I'm not about to let a smelly pachyderm tell me where to get off so long as I can keep up a steady base of fire. Last part purely in bravado laced jest, but I'd opt to shoot and move back rather than run without shooting.

 

[grand veneur]

Well, I seem to recall a post or two where it was said "the PH will have the bigger gun to back up".

In my view the only difference between a PH gun and a client gun would be not in class of caliber and capability, but in optics. If he has to, the PH will be shooting at much closer distances so most likely should have iron sights. The client can have optics or not based on his capabilities or the shots being offered.

Now, I have no issues with a client having a .4xx and the PH having a .4XX - .5XX caliber for DG. In both cases it is "enough gun".

I deleted the posting because I don't want to provoke. I know the answers. It all happens on two fronts , the clients on one side and the PH on the other side. Some are allowed to play , the others have to take care , and that with the right tools in hand.

 

[mark-hunter]

From general consensus, of various discussions on this forum, my understanding is following:
- trophy hunting DG is teamwork where everybody has a duty to perform. PH, hunter, tracker(s), make the basic team.
- shot placment is most important for hunter/client in all hunting situations.

So, for hunting DG and team member duties:
- client/hunter job will be to place the bullet in proper place, of vital zone of DG, for this, basic requirement is his skill, plus using proper (or legal) caliber. 375 is more then sufficient, up to ele.

- PH duty, to bring client in good position for shooting, and secondly, in case that the first shot is followed by charging DG animal, PH job is to stop the charge to protect the hunting party. (client is welcome to participate in stopping the charge, after failure of first bullet, in a safe manner, depending of development of situation, position of others etc,)
But for PH - For that duty he needs stopping caliber. (something in .40 and up)

Proper hunting/legal caliber, and stopping calibers, again, as per consensus of this forum are not the same.

 

[grand veneur]

Proper hunting/legal caliber, and stopping calibers, again, as per consensus of this forum are not the same.

That makes no doubt , and as I have already written , this dependence of somebody doesn't seem to bother many.

 

[HWL]

Would you try to stop an elephant charge at 15 meters with a 30-06? If you would, then you have much bigger balls than I do.

May be,....not for long.



HWL

 

[Tanks]

...

Proper hunting/legal caliber, and stopping calibers, again, as per consensus of this forum are not the same.

I think people are looking at shot placement as depicted by "Perfect Shot" rather than caliber performance being paramount for their hunting as people keep on harping on how placement of shot is much more important than caliber.

I'd submit that both are equally important.

Here is a hypothetical example: You are shooting at a Cape Buffalo straight on for a heart shot. Just as you are pressing the trigger the buffalo moves and your straight on heart shot became a quartering heart shot having to go through a lot of dense bone to get there. Rat calibers are going to fail, stopping calibers are not.

"Perfect is the enemy of good." One can be giving up a lot of shots with the lighter calibers because the "perfect shot" is not there. The elephant in my profile pic was a quartering shot through the right shoulder, I would never have taken that shot with a lesser caliber, but felt confident of the results with a 500 grain solid from a .500 caliber rifle at 55 meters.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I love how this descends invariably into the haves and have nots. Caliber X is not good enough because I have to justify my having a caliber Y. "What's that you say? You have a .375?" "Why that's just dandy, but I have a .470NE double and it's a stopping rifle!" "Only a .470NE double you say?" "Well I have a .500 NE double and it produces a noticeable difference on game that pales the .470 by comparison." Then some raucous fool slides his bin-ock-lers over to his left armpit and wants to show us his Heym .577 NE and tells us how it's a battle rifle. The everyday Joe genuinely impressed, says, "Wow guys that's really impressive, but all I have is a .30-06 bolt action." They all chime in unison "Ohhh I could never be comfortable carrying that into the field!" Meanwhile out of all of those folks the guy with the .375 and .30-06 are the two best shots of the bunch while the others drone on about regulation and sight size and cost of various things.

 

[Tanks]

I love how this descends invariably into the haves and have nots. Caliber X is not good enough because I have to justify my having a caliber Y. ...

Actually, my .500 MDM (or .458 B&M) cost a lot less than the Blaser .375 H&H that has been touted here.

Lots of guys shoot CZs (which are not expensive) in stopping calibers as well.

PS. I put my "bin-ock-lers" under my RIGHT armit, not left.

PPS. African DG hunting is not cheap and the cost of firearm being used is really immaterial if you factor in all the other costs involved. Plus, the firearm cost can be amortized over multiple hunts. So, it is a case of haves and have nots only in the case of being able to afford a free range DG Safari.

 

[spike.t]

Yeah not that many actually simply answering the question......

 

[AES]

To answer the initial question, I would have to respond 'NO'. Half of the fun of hunting DG is to let the big guns eat! Where else are you going to shoot them?

As an aside, I do think the 375 is unnecessarily large for Leopard and one risks undue hide damage to an expensive trophy. I would personally have no problem shooting a 300WM at a Leopard if I were allowed.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Ive seen a lot of people on the range taking shots with each other's rifles and it is abundantly clear that there is an upper limit for everyone. Exceed that and the level of accuracy, especially consistent second shot accuracy falls apart. So there is the crux, not how small can you go, but how big can you go and shoot consistently well. For me, i have two 375's, the H&H mag and the Flanged mag. I took my buff and other game incl zebra with the H&H, but the truth is I shoot the flanged better. So there is my upper limit, the 375 Flanged and I will probably sell the H&H because its now redundant. My going smaller was just one step that made a lot of difference. Both rifles weigh about the same incidentally.

 

[Tanks]

...Exceed that and the level of accuracy, especially consistent second shot accuracy falls apart. So there is the crux, not how small can you go, but how big can you go and shoot consistently well...

You are forgetting one thing. It is a lot different in the field when adrenalin is flowing and you are concentrating on the game instead of possible recoil. I can't even remember the recoil of the rifles after a shot at game.

 

[Hank2211]

You are forgetting one thing. It is a lot different in the field when adrenalin is flowing and you are concentrating on the game instead of possible recoil. I can't even remember the recoil of the rifles after a shot at game.

That is true @Tanks - I don’t recall ever feeling recoil in the field either, but you still have to practice with a rifle, and you still have to sight it in. And there is some recoil I’ve felt sighting in a rifle which I’m afraid I won’t easily forget!