Thought Provoking Question: How Many Of You Would Use A Smaller Calibre If It Were Legal?

Yes and no.

I don’t like phrases like “no replacement for displacement” because they are often oversimplified and incorrect. I do generally live by this one though because, in my experience, it may not always be correct, but it’s rarely wrong.

Too many people, in my opinion, depend on bullet technology to overcome physics and material properties of metals. Lead and copper have physical limits.

A screaming fast 338 may blow up three inches in while a plodding bullet of same weight and caliber will plow right through. Surely this can happen with a 378 Weatherby Magnum too, but the man who’s man enough to fire it can just punch the buffalo in the face anyway.

A 375 H&H, with a 300 grain Partition or A Frame, will provide predictable performance for it’s entire point blank range. Same can be said for a properly constructed solid.

The newfangled monometal projectiles appear to be well designed and provide a dependable performance envelope according to many. I have zero personal experience with them on game though. If what is said is true they may provide the ability to take one step down in caliber across the board.

The one and only time I have lost an animal was because I had begun to believe the hype about a new bullet. At 80 yards it was going fast enough to blow up on the shoulder. Had the bullet even been a cup-and-core soft point it probably would have made it through.

A body who is unable or unwilling to tolerate a 375 may aught to pick a different game to play. No need to lower the bar.
Standard Velocity
I 100% agree with your statement on the 375. My recoil tolerances now preclude me from the use of anything bigger than my 35 Whelen. This places a PERSONAL limit on the size of game I would ETHICALLY hunt to a max of water buffalo which I hope one day to do.
Cheers mate Bob
 
I’m not 125 lbs small but not a whole lot bigger either. I don’t enjoy the recoil but am also not bothered too much by it. 375 is about as big as I can enjoy shooting off the bench. With the exception of the intolerably high recoiling cartridges shooting offhand makes most anything tolerable.

Guys twice my size who are used to shooting a 30-06 act like I’m shooting a cannon. I think the most punishing recoil is between the ears.
Standard Velocity
I'm 6 and a half feet and just over 240 pounds but due to a shoulder injury my limit now is the stoutly loaded Whelen. Size has nothing to do with the way a person can handle recoil.
There was an old saying " a 124 pound English man fireing a 23 pound four bore at a 5000 pound elephant shoots the elephant. Who ever gets up first wins. If northern get up the natives share in the spoils "
Cheers mate Bob
 
Hello again Major Khan,

You can please kindly mark me down for “no”.

I’ve never shot a leopard but, when watching them on video, while otherwise not disturbed, until the moment of impact, they do not appear so heavily built as to require .375 H&H ballistics.
Nonetheless, even in countries where lesser cartridges are permitted for leopard and if indeed I was interested in bagging a leopard, I likely would use a .375 H&H.
This one is my favorite hunting cartridge for non-dangerous game so, I am very well practiced with it.

I am too hyper active to sit still in a leopard blind/hide.
Nonetheless, if I ever decided to change my mind and hunt old Chuy, my personal choice would be as mentioned, the .375 H&H.
(If I ever hunt another Buffalo, most likely I will use at least a .404 or .416 and probably larger but, I shoot these well and they are appropriate for heavy boned animals).

If I ever was to hunt hippo on land or elephant, very likely I’d use either my .458 Lott or my .500 Jeffery.
My ideas on such a topic has little or nothing to do with how I feel others should choose their firearm/s but, everything to do with how I feel I should choose my firearm/s for whatever species I’m intending to stalk.

However, back to leopard specifically, in the event all countries allowing leopard hunting with the .375 H&H as their minimum by law, were to suddenly decide they would move their minimum downward to let’s say, the 7x57, 8x57 or .30-06, I would guess that just as many leopard would end up in the skinning sheds across Africa.

Cheers,
Paul.
Velo Dog
If we are only talking leopard, the PH I hunted with shot his last leopard on his own property with his 25/06 with one shot. It now sits on a branch above hide bar. I personally would feel more comfortable with my Whelen just in case the shit hits the fan.
Cheers mate Bob
 
That is true @Tanks - I don’t recall ever feeling recoil in the field either, but you still have to practice with a rifle, and you still have to sight it in. And there is some recoil I’ve felt sighting in a rifle which I’m afraid I won’t easily forget!

For sighting in you can use a lead sled and/or Pabst recoil pad and it won't be an issue. For practice, this is what I do. First it is all free hand or from sticks. I shoot a lighter recoiling rifle, then 5-10 rounds from my big bore and then lighter recoiling rifle again. The brain forgets.

Also, a lot of people exaggerate the recoil, they are tense, they try to fight it. A good friend of mine who recently passed away was a world class competitive shooter and firearms instructor. His favorite saying: "Let Recoil Happen" if you are relaxed and in proper stance the recoil energy passes through you to the ground and you are ready to go again. I am overtly simplifying it, but he has written multiple articles regarding this (google the term if you wish) and I think there are some videos too. Now, this was in regards to handguns, but applies to rifles as well. Relax and ride the recoil instead of being tense and fighting it.
 
As I said in another thread, rifle design and fit also appears to be a big factor. My slightly built five foot eight son in law shooting my 375 flanged mag Verney Carron O/U at the charging lion target, 300 grains 2400fps, first time handling it was that day, scored two bulls right off. And the 375 FLanged with that load, and with that accuracy, is good enough for lion and buff.
 
Velo Dog
If we are only talking leopard, the PH I hunted with shot his last leopard on his own property with his 25/06 with one shot. It now sits on a branch above hide bar. I personally would feel more comfortable with my Whelen just in case the shit hits the fan.
Cheers mate Bob

Hi Bob,

I used to own a Ruger Model 77 in .25-06.
With it I shot some feral hogs, coyotes, feral house cats, a lot of jack rabbits and untold numbers of ground squirrels (California and Nevada).
The soft tissue destruction this cartridge and similar super high velocity / small bore cartridges cause at close range, is remarkable.

I’ve always thought it would make a passable Police / SWAT cartridge, because criminal skulls are not made of cement (despite the fact that criminals typically act like they are).
One piggy I shot with it was between the eyes, at perhaps 5 or 6 paces as it, unaware of my presence, walked toward me.
Death was instant and the 100 grain Hornady Spire Point did not exit.

The .25-06 is effective, beyond what it’s tiny hole at the muzzle suggests.
Here in Alaska, I once saw the photo of a large bull moose, reportedly shot very dead, from a single well placed 120 grain Core-Lokt Remington .25-06 factory load (broadside/just behind the shoulder).
It is no surprise to me that your PH friend successfully bagged a leopard with this cartridge.

Saying all that, yours truly would not prefer to use this cartridge for moose or leopard either one.
It was not ideal for shooting pigs either but with brain shots and broadside lung shots, it kept my family supplied with breakfast sausage year-round.
As a side note, the ballistically boring .30-30 Winchester / 170 grain flat nose soft is my favorite feral piggy getter (in case you know anyone who gives a flip).

Seems to me that if for some unknown reason, I wanted to shoot a leopard with a cartridge based more or less on the .30-06 family, I’d probably use the .30-06 itself with 165 grain or heavier bullet.
Another one might perhaps be the 7x64 / 160 grain.
As mentioned before, I expect that if all countries where leopard are hunted were to suddenly make their minimum requirement in the vicinity of 7x57, 8x57 or .30-06, I fully expect the yearly average take of leopards would not change.

However at the end of the day, my preference would likely always be the .375 H&H / 300 grain round nosed soft, with plenty of lead showing.
No doubt it would be more punch than needed for a 110 to 180 pound kitty cat but, it is what I’d prefer.
Having never shot a leopard and not even being interested in doing so, I am the last person anyone should consult on this topic.
Nonetheless, if I ever decide I can after all, sit quietly still, hour after hour, day after day, watching for a leopard, I would want my Brno .375 for this.

Cheers mate,
Paul.
 
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That is true @Tanks - I don’t recall ever feeling recoil in the field either, but you still have to practice with a rifle, and you still have to sight it in. And there is some recoil I’ve felt sighting in a rifle which I’m afraid I won’t easily forget!

One must be able to fire a rifle with a very strong recoil on a bench. This is the only good way to zeroing an scope on a big bore rifle , and it is also a good training for recoil tolerance. It is half as bad if you use good sandbags and put pillows under the elbows. Neck and brain remain a problem. I shoot to practice more often in this way with my two scoped big bore rifles caliber 460WM and 500 Schüler , and sometimes also with my DR caliber 577NE with open sights.

Besides , I find it very good that some honestly admit without further comments that they have an upper limit due to the recoil. It's really no shame. I don't want to insinuate anything , but I think's it's better than downplaying the working of the big bores to hide something.
 
Besides , I find it very good that some honestly admit without further comments that they have an upper limit due to the recoil. It's really no shame. I don't want to insinuate anything , but I think's it's better than downplaying the working of the big bores to hide something.
I agree with you completely. I've seen people in camps where I've hunted with a .460 Weatherby or whatever that clearly is brand new, brought only because they read about how important it is to "have enough gun." If you close your eyes before you pull the trigger, you have more than enough gun!

I'm perfectly willing to admit that my tolererance for enjoyment ends right about .416 Rigby territory, and even there, it has to be a well made and balanced version. I had a CZ in .416 and sold it because I was developing a flinch. Many years later I bought a Rigby version which fits me very well, and I actually sort of enjoy shooting it!
 
I am reading 'Maneaters of Kumaon' by Jim Corbett. He was sited as being a good example of small calibres on tiger and leopard. Interesting thing is that he states the his 275 is too small for thick jungle in two cases in that book and goes home for his 450/400. One case was a leopard and the other a tiger. He clearly states that he carries the 275 on long walks because it was more pleasant and perfectly adequate on long shots (where there was distance between him and the animal and no personal danger)WDM Bell was much the same, he used a light calibre (Because it was cheap and quiet-poaching was a business ) But when he went after wounded elephant or if circumstances dictated then he used a 375 or larger.So if you are a poacher, then 7mm is suitable but only if there is no personal danger. Governments will want hard and fast rules- not allowing people to judge whether a situation demanded a bit more gun

It is a no from me. And I would suggest that WDM Bell and Jim Corbett seemed to prefer small calibres when walking and poaching and large calibres when things were close and bush was thick and they might get hurt. So I would suggest that nowadays, they would also put aside their small calibres and carry a 375 + rifle.
 
Another reason for small caliber used by Bell, common way to hunt in tall grass as depicted by this drawing, very close range, and accurate shot. Standing high in this position with very large caliber rifle would not be convenient.

bell_shootingintallgrass.jpg
 
I agree with you completely. I've seen people in camps where I've hunted with a .460 Weatherby or whatever that clearly is brand new, brought only because they read about how important it is to "have enough gun."...

Just out of curiosity, I plugged in the recoil numbers for two of thigh highest recoiling rifles I have. My .500 MDM is at 87 ft/lbs and my newly acquired .500NE is at 85 ft/lbs. Then, I plugged in the numbers for .460 Weatherby load data and the recoil came at 115 ft/lbs!!! 25% more than I am used to. I can't imagine going to the field with that gun without shooting it much. I do not take a firearm to a hunt unless I have several hundred rounds through it at various shooting distances I might encounter. I just can't imagine taking a gun that recoils 25% more than I am used to cold.

However, I'd submit that guys that take firearms they are not that familiar with to a hunt, especially DG safaris outside of RSA, are rare. We hear stories of "that one guy", but out of how many hundreds or thousands?
 
Speaking of authors and their experiences:

James H. Sutherland, who over the course of his life shot between 1,300 and 1,600 elephants, stated in his The Adventures Of An Elephant Hunter, “after experimenting with and using all kinds of rifles, I find the most effective to be the double .577 with a 750 grains bullet and a charge in Axite powder equivalent to a hundred grains of cordite.” And further stating “I think the superiority of the .577 over the .450 and .500 rifles, will be evident when I state that I have lost elephants with these last two rifles, while I have bagged others with identically the same shots from a .577.”
I guess he did not try the .375 H&H and its superior stopping power on elephants. ;)
 
Another reason for small caliber used by Bell, common way to hunt in tall grass as depicted by this drawing, very close range, and accurate shot. Standing high in this position with very large caliber rifle would not be convenient.

View attachment 342827

Do you really think that one can shoot always very accurate from such positions , especially on the shoulder of a person ?

I would like to know how many elephants Bell has wounded.
 
I gotta get me one of those .577's because it makes all other calibers feel like a .22 and kills with authority! Mark Sullivan's bin-ock-lers get slid over to the left. And he only carries six of those .577's into battle! Lest he step in a puddle and drown...

Oooh love the .375 baiting! Haha! I'll have to reach for my compensation caliber the .458 Lott! So I can revel in a man's recklessness and have recoil far beyond what I need to get the job done. Although I would like to shoot one of the .577's some day just to see what will happen to me.
 
Gorge Rushby preferred a .577 for elephant, unless he was shooting from the top of a ladder, then he preferred a .318. His 577 nocked him off the ladder the first time he tried it. Yes he was a poacher.
 
Don't know why you keep mentioning MS when no one talked about him. Unrequited love? Do you have a man crush on him? :LOL::LOL::LOL:
Well he's the face of the bigger is bestest as I see it. What is it with all the high speed abbreviations around here? MS, Ele, Buff? Too cool to enunciate? The computer bloody spells it out for you. As to my man crush and unrequited love for "MS," for to spell out his name might conjure the devil indeed, Ha! I don't know the guy, but the testosterone there is compensation for shortcomings unavailable to common observation. He seems a humourous wrecked life not unlike many here. Ha!
 
I gotta get me one of those .577's because it makes all other calibers feel like a .22 and kills with authority! Mark Sullivan's bin-ock-lers get slid over to the left. And he only carries six of those .577's into battle! Lest he step in a puddle and drown...

Oooh love the .375 baiting! Haha! I'll have to reach for my compensation caliber the .458 Lott! So I can revel in a man's recklessness and have recoil far beyond what I need to get the job done. Although I would like to shoot one of the .577's some day just to see what will happen to me.
Forrest Halley.
Dang man what are using them puny little guns fer, mice or something. When it comes to bigger than a mouse man I use one of them that 950 A Squares.
Ha ha ha ha ha
Cheers mate Bob
 
Well he's the face of the bigger is bestest as I see it...

Actually, .577 NE is a step down for him. He used to have a John Wilkes .600 NE. And I would not call him the face of the larger bore rifles either. As quoted above a lot of old time hunters used .577 NE. Caliber matters, especially when shooting solids.
 

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ghay wrote on No Promises's profile.
I'm about ready to pull the trigger on another rifle but would love to see your rifle first, any way you could forward a pic or two?
Thanks,
Gary [redacted]
Heym Express Safari cal .416 Rigby

Finally ready for another unforgettable adventure in Namibia with Arub Safaris.


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Unforgettable memories of my first hunting safari with Arub Safaris in Namibia (Khomas Hochland) !!!

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ghay wrote on Joel Rouvaldt's profile.
Love your rifle! I'm needing a heavier rifle for Africa. Sold my .375 Dakota Safari several trips ago. Would you have any interest in a trade of some sort involving the custom 338/06 I have listed here on the site ( I have some room on my asking price. I also have a large quantity of the reloading components and new Redding dies as well as a box of A-Square Dead Tough ammo.
dogcat1 wrote on WAB's profile.
They are yours. Please send your contact info and which pair you want.
Thanks,
Ross
 
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