22 or 6.5 Creedmore for Moose and Elk?

FlyGuy said:

I saw that video clip by the self proclaimed elk whisperer.

It’s actually a rather flawed discussion.
He quoted a number of military tests that you can’t compare to hunting statistics.
If I was sending 100+ rounds per day, I would also prefer a light recoiling platform, but who can remember the recoil from the last shot you took at game? 22LR or 375H&H….

Yes… you can kill elk and moose using a 6.5 with ideal shot placement, but that seldomly happens in the real world.

Click to expand...

Truly, I thought the young elk expert in the video to be mostly full of $#!t. I laughed out loud while watching his video. But it reminded me of the general pussification of the younger American male and what seems to be the popularity of shooting game animals with tiny, fast bullets and hoping they will do the job. 6.5 and 22 Creed are great target rifles and good varmint rifles. Might be adequate for hunting small deer or Pronghorn antelope as well. While they might also be adequate for larger game with quality heavy bullets, I would not use any of them on big game like Elk, Moose, Caribou or other similar game even at close range.

I would love to own a 6mm arc in a quality short action bolt rifle but not to hunt big game. I like to tease my shooting buddy when he shows up at the range with his 6.5CM and I brought my Sako S20 in 243. When he asked me what it was chambered in?. I tell him it is a 6mm/08. His reply, "I never heard of that one" whereby I say, "It is the metric version of the 243 and by calling it the 6mm/08 it becomes much cooler sounding and thereby acceptable for long range shooting"

Just to be clear, I still think the 7mm RM is a little light for Elk or Moose despite being generally thought to be one of the top rated rounds for those larger animals. To me the 338wm is darn near perfect for these big critters.

Ideal, no. Adequate, absolutely. My boys all hunt with 6.5 CMs using 142 gr ABLR. First two cows were taken at 350 yards. Simulateous shots from each boy-- both cows were killed with a single shot. Next bull killed with a single shot from 200 yards, went about 40 yards then piled up. Last bull took three shots to put it down. I could post many others too: mule deer, whitetail deer, pronghorn, and bobcat all taken by them so far with 6.5 CMs. Zero lost animals to date...and I'm not that good of a tracker!

Depending on terrain, my go-to is either a 300 Win Mag, a 338 Win. Mag, or a 35 Whelen. The boys have to pass up high shoulder shots on elk and I don't, but that's about the only difference. I killed my moose with a bow this year, but if I had had a 6.5 CM i wouldn't have been bashful taking it out.

The key is bullet selection. I started out using monos and hated it-- doesn't have the velocity at the ranges that I wanted to expand them. But since switching to 142 gr ABLR, my wife and sons have cleanly killed dozens of animals and have lost none. YMMV

I’d hunt Mule deer with a 6CM, and maybe elk with a 25 creed but I’d start there I think. I wouldn’t go down to .223 or 22cm because there’s better options, but who knows…. There’s truckloads of elk killed every fall with .22s and they seem to work fine so live and let live I guess.

I have a feeling the 25 is a better killer on bigger critters than the 6.5 but I don’t really know, I’ve never shot elk with either. The last time I hunted elk or mule deer I used a 30-06. I think it’s just my love of quarter bores.

With the smaller calibers running heavy bullets I do think there is a solid argument to be made for using match type bullets but that’s not an argument I want to have with anyone.

I think it’s pretty cool that new cartridges are hitting the market, even if I’m not interested in half of them .

We took three bull elk last year with 6mm arc shooting 109 eldms. All one shot kills and they died real quick and in a hurry like. Two were shot through the shoulder joint on a hard quater. I put the wound channels in the bullet preformance data base page here. The thing you also have to understand is a bull elk is only about 15-16 inches wide. They maybe 4 times heavier than a deer, but they are only a couple inches wider. They key is to use heavy for caliber bullets, which are very long. A picture says a 1000 words. (107gr 6mm tmk next to a 250 gr 375). The good thing is, everything can work if you use the correct bullet and send it through the lungs. We are blessed with a plethora of choices.

We also like to use the long, heavy for caliber rule for big magnums too. 358 norma with a 225 accubond vs 340 gr cutting edge single feed.

In my opinion the trend to smaller and smaller cartridges for big game is because of better bullet technology – and I have no problem with that, to an extent.

I have a young son who's 12 and is about to start deer hunting with me, and the number 1 consideration for me when choosing a rifle was recoil.
If you can use a smaller, less recoiling rifle to get the same result, that's great.

But the problem is when it's taken too far, like using something like a .243 on elk, moose, etc.
A cartridge like that was never designed for that task, and when it fails, the cartridge gets an undeserved bad name.
Sure, it'll work sometimes – even most times – but when it fails...

Personally, I would never use any .22 cartridge on deer and don't really consider the 6.5CM a great choice for elk-sized game.
I've seen how tough sambar are, and they're smaller than elk. I have personally shot sambar with a .458WM and seen them run off... and it was a solid hit as well.

I would rather someone use a bigger rifle and use a muzzle brake... and I don't like brakes.

Better bullet technology, better scopes, rangefinders, etc. are all good things, but the fact remains that you still need enough horsepower to do the job – not when everything goes right, but when everything goes wrong...

Just my 0.02c

Russ

AckleyHunter said:

We took three bull elk last year with 6mm arc shooting 109 eldms. All one shot kills and they died real quick and in a hurry like. Two were shot through the shoulder joint on a hard quater. I put the wound channels in the bullet preformance data base page here. The thing you also have to understand is a bull elk is only about 15-16 inches wide. They maybe 4 times heavier than a deer, but they are only a couple inches wider. They key is to use heavy for caliber bullets, which are very long. A picture says a 1000 words. (107gr 6mm tmk next to a 250 gr 375). The good thing is, everything can work if you use the correct bullet and send it through the lungs. We are blessed with a plethora of choices.
View attachment 764740

Click to expand...

It’s true, elk body width broadside, bone structure, musculature etc isn’t too much different from deer….. they are just bigger every other direction. We cull deer with body shots using a 6mm running 108 eldm bullets and they work excellent 100% of the time, so there should be no difference on elk in theory. I just haven’t been brave enough to try it. Thanks for sharing the experience.

A few years ago my eldest son killed a great Bull Elk at 467 yards with one shot from a 6.5 PRC pushing 143 grain ELDX’s. The bull was bedded for 7 hours, stood up at 4:55 PM completely relaxed, the shot across the canyon was perfect and the bull died in 30 seconds next to a 7 Pt shed and within a few feet of where he was bedded.

My answer to the 22 and 6.5 CM or (PRC) is still no for general use on Elk and especially Moose. Everything must be too perfect and that rarely happens.

I love my 280 AI and 300 Win Mags.

No.

Elk worthy calibers start at 7mm and the closer they get to .30 cal the better.

308 is too much recoil?!? We’re doomed……..

I never understand these questions but it is all about what problem we are trying to solve as hunters when selecting the right gun. I like what another person said in here. Folks it isn't about how little I need to use but what ethically do I need to use to harvest the animal. And if you are using a gun just because it is accurate and doesn't kick you are not using the right criteria to think. I have hinted for almost 70 years and have shot a lot of game from large to small and I have never felt any gun kick when I am shooting at what I am hunting. Way too much excitement. And when that excitement stops, I will stop hunting.

So my answer is absolutely not. You are harvesting a great animal not shooting paper. Show a little ethical behavior.

If it’s legal, I would support those that choose to hunt big game with these cartridges. But legality doesn’t make it a good idea IMO.

My low recoil option would be a 270WIN with a 7RM as a step up. But I’d prefer a 30-06 (lower recoil.30 cal option) or 300WM so a heavier bullet at a faster speed could be used.

One of my favorite rifles is my winchester 70 super grade in 6.5 creedmoor its an awesome deer rifle or varmit, for deer I shoot 130 Terminal Ascent or Swift Sciroccos, I do not like inteflock or corelock bullet performance. However for elk or moose i would use the 9.3x62 or 7mm Backcountry. Note lots of people in Scandinavia use the 6.5x55 swede... i love this rifle in my ruger hawkeye african and i am taking it to africa, but that cartridge when handloaded is (case is 11% bigger than 6.5cr) is closer to 6.5 PRC levels in factory ammo, but i still wouldnt use it for elk.

Animals die from bullets entering vital tissue. I probably wouldn’t go into interior Alaska hunting moose with a 22CM because there are grizzlies or brown bears. But at the end of every blood trail that leads to a harvest is an animal that suffered an injury from a wound tract. Arrows, spears, and projectiles all create wound tracts and there are multiple factors that allow that to happen. Twist rate and bullet design are improving performance of smaller calibers. The kudu i shot last summer with 143 ELDX from a 6.5 cm (I was on a dedicated tiny ten hunt and a broken horn kudu popped out) didn’t know I didn’t shoot it with a 375.

I'll never understand the argument that in a hunting situation at least that recoil is a significant factor in your ability to hit your target. Yes, after several shots on the bench while at the range you could start to develop a flinch and consistency will suffer. But I've never once felt the recoil during a hunting situation after over 45 years of hunting. I've never had the opportunity to hunt elk but for me the ideal round will be my 300 win mag.

Could you and should you have very different meanings.

I can’t say I have never felt recoil when hunting.
I will say I never felt it before my shoulder was messed up.
With the 45-70 and the 358 I know when I pull the trigger I will fell it now.
But it has not effected my hunting.
I just know I will feel a little pain.

Now with that being said the 10ga will not be used by me now.

A surgeon can use a butter knife for your needs but the better tool is probably a scalpel. The last thing we need is an inexperienced hunter shooting a load that doesn't allow for alot of margin for error.

Just because I can do something, doesn't mean I should and how ethics isn't discussed by the magazines, is shocking. Go buy a normal, down the fairway caliber for the animal you intend to kill and practice. That is your responsibility as a hunter.

Or go use a bow...if you are so rexoul sensitive.

Ayayayayayayaya................................

Another one of these........................

Did you know that there is a documented case of a kid in Africa during the golden years in Kenya killing a Buffalo with a .22 LR? True story, told in one of the PH biographies (cannot remember which one). The bullet went through the ear canal. Rather than being proud of his boy, the father gave him a good trashing. Reasonable man...

So yes, it can be done. Will you be packing your .22 LR on your next Buffalo hunt?

A hunting caliber should not be selected to deliver a killing shot when everything goes well, it should be selected to deliver a killing shot when everything goes wrong.

Yes, modern bullets improve the odds, but going small and light is still a gamble. Bullets need to either slip between bones, or break them. Elk may not be much wider than deer (?) but all the ones I killed had much thicker bones...

Adding insult to injury, the problem with the Creedmoor is twofold. In addition to folks thinking that a .22 or 6.5 can kill anything, which is already a problem because they forget the word "reliably" in the sentence, they also think that they can do it at stupid distances, forgetting that residual energy at those distances may be enough to punch paper but are grossly inadequate to kill RELIABLY large animals.

Yes limiting shots taken to ideal conditions and reasonable distance goes a long way, but so few are capable of it... I have no issue with well reared kids guided by reasonable experienced parents hunting in perfect conditions and limiting their shots to perfect presentation at limited range, but, sadly, the largest cohort seems to be would-be snipers opening at 800 yards on fleeing animals quartering away, and this is where the Creedmoor myth collapses...

I have a friend in South Africa who works for a safari video filming company. You guessed it, he confirms emphatically that for the one 600 yards one-shot 6.5 kill you see on YouTube, there are dozens of wounding shots, or prolonged gun battles, and many, many lost animal that never make it out of the editing laptop.

'nough said.........................................

One Day... said:

Elk may not be much wider than deer (?) but all the ones I killed had much thicker bones...

Click to expand...

No, they didn't.

Elk width(x2) for reference.