Resignation PHASA President

[SafariA]

Can I please refer you guys to the Phasa press release again. This resignation was not about CBL although some people would like you to believe it was ... No problem if you guys want to debate the merits of a practise . Just to point out that this was a misleading media statement by NAPHA . I cannot comment on their sources but find it odd that this was made without proper information .
..........

 

[Royal27]

LETS SEE IF I CAN GET MY POINT ACROSS FINALLY. IF YOU DONT LIKE A FORM OF HUNTING DON"T DO IT AS THAT IS YOUR RIGHT. DON"T SUPPORT IT OR GIVE IT ANY BACKING. JUST DONT BASH IT OR TAKE THE ANTI'S SIDE OF IT AS THAT WILL NOT HELP HUNTING OVERALL.THAT HAS BEEN PROVE NOW WITH WHAT HAS HAPPENED SO FAR WITH THE WHOLE LION MESS WE ARE IN NOW.

Even with your conflicting messages at times I think that most here understand your opinion on this matter. It's just that many us don't agree with it, myself included.

Who are you to tell anyone what they should and shouldn't say, or accuse another hunter of taking the antis side simply because they don't agree with you???

I'm curious.... is disagreeing with you publicly illegal? Because it seems by your own logic that as long as my disagreement is legal then you should support it publicly always. Right?

And the whole "If we disagree at all we will lose" argument is crap, total crap. I don't think many here will argue that the United States is the most powerful nation in the world. It was founded by a small group of people (not the government and had no power at the start) who disagreed with each other vehemently, at times even violently. And, they made big decisions for a large group many of who didnt agree with them. Despite all of that somehow it worked out OK I think (now remember, if you disagree with anything going on in the US you shouldn't state so publicly, as long as it it legal. Hmm.... I guess that also means you should now support the lion ban here, or at least not say publicly that you don't agree. It was after all enacted legally).

My point here is not about lion hunting though. It's that you're acting awful high and mighty while accusing others of being high and mighty. The details are different, but you're a great example of a pot calling the kettle black.

So either follow your own advice and quit commenting publicly when you disagree, or stop criticizing others for disagreeing publicly. I love these debates. I hate hypocrisy.

 

[billc]

Bob me saying the no reason is not the lions like Phil that are getting hunted. Mind you those are the very ones phasa was againist but the lions being killed by poachers and natives protecting there cattle. That is if you believe guys like Ivan carter who showed that own his show is now a growing problem again. Also if you believe the report about 300 lions need to be culled in that zim park. Those lions are being killed for reason hunting could help.Why if I was for raised lion hunting would I think Phil was for no reason. I am for all lion hunts even your hunt which we know was not what you thought.

Now redleg my high horse is for all legal hunting so I would rather be up there then calling hunters shooters just because I don't like something. Don't throw the first stone if you don't like an equally disrespectful reply I guess.

I also find it so funny when guys say about high fenced or raised animals but have done it. More then a few posting on this thread are guilty of that but then draw a line on what is ok to hunt like that because they did it. I guess if all the wild areas got closed or poached out we would have a lot of guys giving up hunting or maybe they would just become shooters. Oh but we all know then hunting raised or fenced areas would be ok because they decide to do it.

Pheroze I agree but until we have someone who can draw that line I take the side of all hunters. I am of the belief giving in on any hunting will only give them more reason to keep going after the next animal till they have stopped all hunting. Everyone is worried about the non hunter over people who hunt and that way we will not win. There is two groups who remember cecil the lion and that is the anti's and us hunters. The general public lost interest as soon as the news stop spreading all the false news about it.

Like I have said if it gets stopped I will back that till then I will support all hunting period be it by talking about it or not tearing it down because I don't like it.

 

[Royal27]

Can I please refer you guys to the Phasa press release again. This resignation was not about CBL although some people would like you to believe it was ... No problem if you guys want to debate the merits of a practise . Just to point out that this was a misleading media statement by NAPHA . I cannot comment on their sources but find it odd that this was made without proper information .
..........

With all due respect, I don't believe for a second that this wasn't about CBL. I don't doubt that other issues were involved as well, but I think it likely that the PHASA media statement is likely more misleading than the NAPHA statement.

 

[LivingTheDream]

@billc I am really happy you are part of this forum.

Guys there is no need to get to 12 pages on this one. We all know there is going to be disagreement.

1. We will argue hunting ethics vs legality...This one we can never define so let's move on

2. To Bill's point, it isn't just about lions, it is about all high fence/ranch hunts, don't give the anti's ammo. Lions this week, impalas next.

3. To others points it gives the anti's ammo to influence those that don't hunt. The image of shooting something in a cage, etc etc.

We don't need to go down this path, and the letter that started this conversation was almost a trolling letter as we now know he resigned for other reasons not just the captive breeding thing. But yet here we are discussing it again. The bottom line is some will never support and some will always support.

Final point we have too much to fight for then to argue amongst ourselves. Now does anyone want to start a PR firm?

 

[siml]

Almost got to page 5

 

[Pheroze]

With all due respect, I don't believe for a second that this wasn't about CBL. I don't doubt that other issues were involved as well, but I think it likely that the PHASA media statement is likely more misleading than the NAPHA statement.

Namibia is really stepping up on hunting. There is also a very pointed letter to the Chinese commission about the illegal hunting practices of the Chinese citizens in Namibia. Me thinks that the people of Namibia are filling the void and drawing the line.

 

[BRICKBURN]

We can carry on two actual topics within this thread, cause you just can't stop the avalanche that is CBL. (Catchy acronym by the way)

Just to point out that this was a misleading media statement by NAPHA . ..........

Whoa horse!

Now you are confusing me. The press release you share states and quotes the new President :

"Not the only reason". That infers that it IS one of the reasons.

.............the hunting of captive-bred lions (CBL) .....is, however, not the only reason that led to Stan’s resignation on 23 May,” says newly elected PHASA president, Dries van Coller.

Perhaps, the NAPHA letter is leaning a little hard on the CBL, but misleading?
It is ONE of the reasons being confirmed for the resignation by PHASA!

No problem if you guys want to debate the merits of a practise . .

Don't worry about that. It is a typical reaction to the "CBL" topic.
You will note the prelude comment about 12 pages. We may yet get the new record....

 

[Royal27]

Final point we have too much to fight for then to argue amongst ourselves.

I'm still really glad that the people who started my country didn't agree with this and were willing to fight with each other in order to write and then amend the Constitution. I think they set some pretty clear guidelines and standards that have lasted for quite some time.

Fighting doesn't just divide you, it can actually make you stronger as a team.

 

[siml]

Free range..

 

[billc]

Even with your conflicting messages at times I think that most here understand your opinion on this matter. It's just that many us don't agree with it, myself included.

Who are you to tell anyone what they should and shouldn't say, or accuse another hunter of taking the antis side simply because they don't agree with you???

I'm curious.... is disagreeing with you publicly illegal? Because it seems by your own logic that as long as my disagreement is legal then you should support it publicly always. Right?

And the whole "If we disagree at all we will lose" argument is crap, total crap. I don't think many here will argue that the United States is the most powerful nation in the world. It was founded by a small group of people (not the government and had no power at the start) who disagreed with each other vehemently, at times even violently. And, they made big decisions for a large group many of who didnt agree with them. Despite all of that somehow it worked out OK I think (now remember, if you disagree with anything going on in the US you shouldn't state so publicly, as long as it it legal. Hmm.... I guess that also means you should now support the lion ban here, or at least not say publicly that you don't agree. It was after all enacted legally).

My point here is not about lion hunting though. It's that you're acting awful high and mighty while accusing others of being high and mighty. The details are different, but you're a great example of a pot calling the kettle black.

So either follow your own advice and quit commenting publicly when you disagree, or stop criticizing others for disagreeing publicly. I love these debates. I hate hypocrisy.

Royal I guess it is all what side you look at it from about the hypocrispy. I love how your friend gizmo is saying the same thing as me but you will not say a word to him. I get it you like coming at me and that is all good. I don't say my way is right but disagree with how some make comments. Then I comment and oh my the world stops spinning for some. Now you can try and bring in all the other stuff but if sticking up for hunters is bad. Asking other hunters to not look down at other hunters for hunting a way they dont like is calling the kettle black well then I am the black kettle.

Maybe when I see the same people come on the threads like this and all they do is start with this is shooting not hunting I don't care for it. Maybe coming with I don't agree with this practice instead would be better.

As for supporting the lion import ban here again think about what I say not what you want to so you can disagree. I said I support all legal hunting. The ban is not stopping lions from being hunted. It only stops them from being brought back here. What the ban has done is stop to many people from hunting them and lowered the lions value because of not being able to bring the lion back.Thank phasa for helping that ban along to. Is me fighting that ban hurting any hunter? Nope I would be against the ban but for all lions not just the ones I think are ok to hunt. I myself would rather support a hunter over the antis stance any day or just not say anything at all.

 

[ActionBob]

Bob me saying the no reason is not the lions like Phil that are getting hunted. Mind you those are the very ones phasa was againist but the lions being killed by poachers and natives protecting there cattle. That is if you believe guys like Ivan carter who showed that own his show is now a growing problem again. Also if you believe the report about 300 lions need to be culled in that zim park. Those lions are being killed for reason hunting could help.Why if I was for raised lion hunting would I think Phil was for no reason. I am for all lion hunts even your hunt which we know was not what you thought.

Now redleg my high horse is for all legal hunting so I would rather be up there then calling hunters shooters just because I don't like something. Don't throw the first stone if you don't like an equally disrespectful reply I guess.

I also find it so funny when guys say about high fenced or raised animals but have done it. More then a few posting on this thread are guilty of that but then draw a line on what is ok to hunt like that because they did it. I guess if all the wild areas got closed or poached out we would have a lot of guys giving up hunting or maybe they would just become shooters. Oh but we all know then hunting raised or fenced areas would be ok because they decide to do it.

Pheroze I agree but until we have someone who can draw that line I take the side of all hunters. I am of the belief giving in on any hunting will only give them more reason to keep going after the next animal till they have stopped all hunting. Everyone is worried about the non hunter over people who hunt and that way we will not win. There is two groups who remember cecil the lion and that is the anti's and us hunters. The general public lost interest as soon as the news stop spreading all the false news about it.

Like I have said if it gets stopped I will back that till then I will support all hunting period be it by talking about it or not tearing it down because I don't like it.

Bill, sorry I misinterpreted your comment. Without going back to find the post, my recall is that you mentioned lions being killed in the same context where you pointed out that captive need lion trophies cannot currently be imported to many Countries. I apparently missed your reference to the Zimbabwe lion culling discussion and assumed you meant a captive bred lion shot without the physical trophy being taken home was a lion killed for no reason.

And yes I was disappointed in my lion experience. I was sold something by a supposedly very reputable operator that did not feel right after the fact.

That plus some other experience picked up along the way has my thinking on similar lines to @Red Leg .

Howeve I fully respect the way @Phoenix
Hunted his cat and his reasoning behind it. Phil always seems to honestly represent what he sells. I don't feel that is always the case in the hunting industry. And that seems to me to be the biggest hurdle the industry in RSA faces. I think that as the client base shrinks, the model of "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" is really starting to catch up to S.A..

I will probably hunt in RSA more, especially if I get to old and slow for grander adventures. However i will be much more cautious and not assume people there are reputable just because they have a good reputation.

 

[Royal27]

I love how your friend gizmo is saying the same thing as me but you will not say a word to him.

I disagree with @gizmo too on the subject of keeping quiet no matter what (as well as with anyone else who holds that position). I've done so with him publicly on this subject before as well as privately, so again, your facts aren't correct.

Hope that helps to set the record straight for you.

 

[billc]

Bob the key is you said hunt in RSA some more.

Don't know how I could have been anymore truthful to you on a lion hunt then I was. I told you that you were being sold something it was not. There is always going to be bad outfitters and getting what you want is not always easy. I agree Phil does a great job and Jacques is a good Ph to. I also think sometimes what people hear is what they want not always what is being said to them by the person selling the hunt.

I hope you have many more fun hunts in all the places you want to see and hunt yet. You have at least two years before your to old. LOL

 

[billc]

I disagree with @gizmo too on the subject of keeping quiet no matter what (as well as with anyone else who holds that position). I've done so with him publicly on this subject before as well as privately, so again, your facts aren't correct.

Hope that helps to set the record straight for you.

Never said you did not say anything to him but was talking about this thread and his post. Pretty much was against everything you said but no word about it. Like I said I get it I make myself a easy target and you have nothing better to do.

 

[ActionBob]

Never said you did not say anything to him but was talking about this thread and his post. Pretty much was against everything you said but no word about it. Like I said I get it I make myself a easy target and you have nothing better to do.

Bill I've hung around Royal enough to know he has lots to do. He must just be so damned efficient it only seems like he has tons of time on his hands.

But in this day and age it seems perception is considered reality.. So your right, he has nothing better to do.. So have at him

 

[LivingTheDream]

@Royal27 come on man, how and I am going to refute the Constitution argument.

I have no problem arguing about this, just think we have beaten it to death and it is time to move on. The way I see it is if you have hunted or plan to hunt anything in an area that is high fence, no matter how big then you really can't be against CBL. If you only hunt free range then you can take that stand, and I applaud you.

My concern is that we all know free range is more expensive, if by only having free range does this become more of an elitist sport that leaves more of the population out of our sport.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

In regards to the PHASA president resigning, I'm not sure we who aren't directly connected, i.e. "in the know", really know much of why this happened. But I think it worth reviewing what happened late last year and the events that led up to it. For those much more in the know than me, please feel free to correct me.

1. The issue of hunting, or shooting if you must, of captive bred lions has been an issue for quite sometime. Cecil certainly did lion hunting as whole no favors and served well as a catalyst for the anti's. But the issue was there prior to Cecil. Did Cecil also drive the issue of captive bred lion hunting back to the top of PHASA's concern and specifically an issue to be discussed at the 2015 AGM? Perhaps, but I don't know for sure.

2. At the 2015 PHASA AGM there was a resolution passed that as I understand it "distanced PHASA from the practice of captive bred lion hunting" or had wording to that extent. What exactly that meant or was intended to mean, I'm not sure. What I am fairly certain of is the language of the resolution was limited essentially to what I put in quotes. The resolution that was presented, voted on and subsequently passed did NOT include language that included any repercussions for PHASA members who conducted/marketed captive bred lion hunting.

3. In November 2016 a bit prior to that year's AGM, at least some PHASA members who conducted/marketed captive bred lion hunts were approached by I believe members of the executive committee and asked to sign a document that said they would no longer conduct/market these hunts. If they didn't, they were told they would be kicked out of PHASA.

4. At least some of those who were approached did not sign the document. Furthermore, they in turn sued PHASA in court. At the crux of the lawsuit was LANGUAGE ADDED to the 2015 resolution AFTER the resolution was voted on. This language is what was apparently being used to remove these PHASA members. It would seem the court agreed that the original resolution did not give the PHASA excom the power to remove the PHASA members as the plaintiffs won their court case.

Might this all have something to do with the PHASA president resigning?

 

[ActionBob]

Bob the key is you said hunt in RSA some more.

I said "probably". To clarify further, as a laid back vacation type thing. Likely with people I want to spend time with but who don t want to or cannot go to true wild places and enjoy that fully.

This whole Africa hunting culture is fascinating to me. I do love it. Such extremes but so much good.

We are loosing the public opinion battle. And unfortunately that General public opinion knows not what it asks for. It will be the downfall of the wild areas and animals so many of us treasure.

I'm not sure how the S.A. lion hunting is affecting this overall. But strong opinions all around and I don't think it is helping. At the same time I do think hunters should have those opportunities if done right. But then what is "right"? Slippery slopes.

 

[Pheroze]

I'm not sure how the S.A. lion hunting is affecting this overall. But strong opinions all around and I don't think it is helping. At the same time I do think hunters should have those opportunities if done right. But then what is "right"? Slippery slopes.

The guiding question is what is the objective of defining the sport? Is the objective to have wild places that are available to hunt wild animals such as lion. Or, is the objective only to be able to hunt an animal such as a lion? Personally, the former is the more important objective. It is also the objective that makes our sport unassailable.