Experience & Value Versus Cost

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by JamesJ, Feb 7, 2017.

  1. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    And then there's the whole mess of getting deposit refunds.....
     
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  2. Karoo Wild Safaris

    Karoo Wild Safaris SPONSOR Since 2016 AH Enthusiast

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    Neale's Australian...a well-shorn sheep ewe would do the job. A beer sponsorship is more important :)
     
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  3. siml

    siml AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    @LivingTheDream , thanks!!! My morning coffee landed across my laptop, that was so darn funny!!!
     
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  4. Neale

    Neale AH Enthusiast

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    Hey Victor, Aussie not a Kiwi besides we do not mind un-shorn.
     
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  5. LivingTheDream

    LivingTheDream AH Legend

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    And if you think a PH is mad if you put a tape measurer on the animal. How angry will a stripper be if you put tape measurer around her waist and said wasnt the right size.

    Andddd how long till SCI gets involved.

    I think everyone here is much better off sticking to hunting.
     

  6. Royal27

    Royal27 AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    It's the real reason for high fence rook. Keeps the agents out. ;)
    The stripper slam is coming
     
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  7. CAustin

    CAustin AH ENABLER BRONZE SUPPORTER AH Ambassador

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    Don't forget the high priced color variants ........blondes, red heads.........got to have one of each!
     
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  8. Clayton

    Clayton AH Fanatic

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    This has gone off the rails. At this pace we'll get the attention of the Anti-Strippers and that will be followed by lawyers and a negative media blitz.
     
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  9. LivingTheDream

    LivingTheDream AH Legend

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    @CAustin

    You just opened a whole other debate. Natural vs artificial coloring!!!! What counts as part of the slam. Where do highlights fall in spectrum? Would wigs be equilivent of "canned" hunting?
     
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  10. Lrntolive

    Lrntolive AH Fanatic

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    James, I myself, as a soon to be first time hunter in Africa, looked for the best overall "value," not cheap. I believe that may be something outfitters do not make clear with their marketing.

    While I've never heard a person marketing their own product call it cheap, I have heard "inexpensive," but that's not the same as value. I personally look for the best value in everything I buy. I may be different than most, but I do believe that presented properly, a hunter looking for inexpensive will choose value every time. Some of us just get caught up in the romantic notion of things, and then all logic goes out the window. I'd be a hypocrite if I said it never happened to me.

    Lastly, I do believe that many in our society in the USA are of the equal opportunity of results mindset, and believe they should have a Bentley on a Budweiser budget.
     
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  11. Art Lambart II

    Art Lambart II AH Fanatic

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    @Wheels your definition was close to my assumption.

    So on these large tracks of free range land who builds and maintains the camps, builds the roads and runs the anti poaching efforts.
     

  12. Wheels

    Wheels AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    Generally the concession holder. Usually a form of leasehold in most of Africa that I am familiar with. Concession holder is probably the outfitter, but not always.

    In many areas there may be villages with shambas and pastoralists that have to be worked around. There may be some roads/trails in place to accommodate them. Many times these are the people that own or control the concession. Think CAMPFIRE areas in Zimbabwe. In some areas the outfitter may build schools or help support health clinics as partial payment for the use of the area. Some of the trophy fees, meat may go as payment as well as cash. Some places you might work directly through the local officials. Some through the federal government. Human encroachment is rapidly shrinking the areas that wildlife live in. Going forward these types of partnerships will be important to the fauna.

    Sometimes hunting where there is people can get odd. ie: My father shot a buff out of a herd of maybe 200. This was on a wide open plain where you could see for miles. The buff could have gone anywhere. They chose to run through a herd of maybe 500 cows one kilometer away. My father felt bad and we went over to check on the cows and the herd boys. (Usually around 10 years old) They were all okay. We felt relieved. We left the herd boys the entrails. ie 2: My father thought the scope was off on a 375. A tracker walked over to a 24 inch tree and cut a blaze to aim at. My father shot and a lady ran out from behind that very tree. She had evidently seen us coming and decided to hide behind the tree we shot at. She ran off not hit or hurt. You would have sworn no one was within miles.

    Some areas are totally uninhabited.

    I know Simon has posted on this thread. Perhaps @Traditional Mozambique Safaris or someone else with experience can give you a better answer.
     
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  13. siml

    siml AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    @Art Lambart II , as the owner of the concession, we are responsible for building all the roads, camps etc. We have to do the anti poaching. 2/3 of all the meat that is hunted goes to the local communities. For every client in camp X amount has to go the community per day, besides the annual fee we have to pay. We have to hunt half the value of the animals on quota, if you not you still have to pay the govt.
     
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  14. JamesJ

    JamesJ AH Elite

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    @Lrntolive there is a definite difference between value and cheap. Lots of the deals posted here represent a great value without being just a cheap hunt. Some guys sacrifice the value in lieu of the price. Comparing two hunts side by side apples to apples, the cheaper one being the same quality, i would take the cheaper one, that's a no brainer. But along the lines of the original post, staying in a terrible lodge, eating bad food, taking mediocre animals, when you could have spent a bit more money and had a great experience represents true value. Sometimes the difference may only be a couple hundred dollars over the course of the entire hunt.
     

  15. Lrntolive

    Lrntolive AH Fanatic

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    James, the connotation of "cheap" makes it sound less than worthy. Let's say two comparable hunts with vetted outfitters and everything else matches up except the price of one is lower, I call that a clear value and that hunt is less expensive.

    One of the things I see is that many of us in the US view going to Africa as a once in a lifetime event. And while some have the budget to go all out, others just want to get over there to say they did it on the "cheap." Again, I think this is a reflection of the mindset of so many in the US who believe they deserve a Bentley on a Budweiser budget.

    I don't consider these types the kind of dedicated hunters I see on this message board, but more the passe types. They don't spend the time to do the research, ask the right questions, prepare properly, and they get what they get. Does that make sense? I'm trying to define the type of hunter/person that would do such a thing. Even though it is hard for many of us to fathom, they are out there.
     
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  16. ActionBob

    ActionBob AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Having hunted a couple of South Africa concessions next to APNR of Kruger, one large and one smaller.. And once in Zimbabwe in a CAMPFIRE Unit and once in Mozambique with Simon... I cannot in good conceince call even that 20,000 acre Kruger area "wild". I will not hunt an area lije that again unless it is all i can do physically or financially. Simon's is definitely wild.. as is he sometimes;) I had the most difficult conditions physically and emotionally during the Zimbabwe hunt. Yet it is my most memorable, by a small margin. I would not give up that experience and am grateful to have had the opportunity to endure and enjoy that adventure. Many of you will instantly understand this, a few never will.

    As for South African "close to wild" hunts, I would say the Karoo rises to the top for me. I hunted a high fenced area where we entered the gate, drove 121 kilometers and did not see a fence until we exited another gate well after dark. However the herd was "managed", to a degree. They ran at the sight of the truck because they had been culled and hunted for meat heavily. Had a better experience in the Karoo on my first trip over but also a very large and only low fenced area.

    Value is a key word to me. What I am getting for my hard earned money. And I don't mean just trophy quality. My first hunt was booked through James and was not cheap, but was a good value.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
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  17. JamesJ

    JamesJ AH Elite

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  18. JamesJ

    JamesJ AH Elite

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  19. ActionBob

    ActionBob AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    James, thank you... I recall visiting many times on the phone about everything from tennis shoes to scopes. And you made the money transfers easy. As I added animals during the hunt, I took your advice that when we saw something I liked, aim carefully and squeeze the trigger;) Worry about payment after getting home. (Within reason of course)

    I do recall asking for a short legged PH I could keep up with, that was all good on the flats, but going uphill he just seemed to gain torque with those short legs;) So you only half delivered there:)

    Seriously, keep me informed on your West and Central African opportunities.
     
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  20. ActionBob

    ActionBob AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Art,
    Wheels and Simon addressed your questions well. But to add, in Zimbabwe where I hunted that CAMPFIRE Unit, the locals got all the extra meat after we kept prime cuts for ourselves in camp and the camp staff got an allocation. It was rather moving to have the village women actually kneel (well I suppose I could say I'm used to women kneeling in front of me, in my dreams;) down and thank us for the meat. On an elephant and buffalo hunt, we ended up supplying a lot of meat to 1500 villagers.

    Of the trophy fees, I was told $10,000 of the elephant went half to the Unit, and half to the closest village. This created some small competition between villages wanting me to shoot an elephant in their area. I believe about $3000 of the $4000 buffalo fee went to the same large village.

    There was a,school that had just been remodeled, a real decent medical clinic, a veterinarian clinic (it was a livestock/Farming community. 5 drilled and regularly tested Wells (we drank from them), and they had a community tractor. So the money from my hunt was all going to be able to go to a new community project or machine. The USFWS closing of elephant had lead to cancellation of 5 hunts. I took one and another was taken after mine. But the community lost over $30,000 and they were very unhappy about that.

    The Outfitter had 9 guys on poaching patrol and on his payroll. It is a bit daunting when you think of it. We were in a remote camp all but two nights and one full day we spent at main camp. We had the PH, government scout, and 4 staff, then at base camp another couple cooks, couple spinners and maintenance guys and Secretary. All those people living on what I was spending. Plus what the locals and government got. So athe least 20 people working for the Outfitter. Now he had resources to run a couple hunts at a time, but I was the only one there at the time, due to governments.

    Also worth mentioning is ice and fresh produce where hauled in every few days, anout a 4-5 hour drive. Pretty wild even if Cattle and villages were around. No power lines, solar and generators. These are places you buy Global Rescue type insurance for;)
     
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