Experience & Value Versus Cost

[rookhawk]

You lost me with this part??

The illusion of benefit. I'd wager 90% of people go with a booking agent / US outfitter (again, these terms are not properly used in the States) do so because they think they have some assurances:

1.) If there is a problem, I know where to find this guy

2.) This guy has MY MONEY and if things go wrong I can go beat him until he returns ALL THE MONEY

3.) If I'm not inclined to exact physical violence on a huckster, at least I can sue him in the USA for a full monetary recovery

4.) If there is a battle of Me versus the PH/Operator, the Agent or US Outfitter will have my back and will fully support me

5.) Having a USA (or local to my country) representative is my insurance policy against being cheated/defrauded out of my money on an African hunt.


Most of those reasons above are illusions that are not really the case for many of the agent/outfitters in the states arranging African hunts. Thus, its a false safety net.

 

[CAustin]

Charlie, I'll repeat.
Whether flowery or critical the rules apply.

The devil is in the details as they say!
Where is the next windmill ?

 

[siml]

@rookhawk , okay my understanding of outfitter, is not the same as agent.

 

[JamesJ]

Just clarification on this. The outfitter is actually the one who facilitates or conducts your hunt at ground level, he may be your PH as well. The agent/broker is the one who handles your hunt from this side. Coordinating pickup, flights, monies, trophies etc.

In my business I'm the agent, unless I am physically running the hunt then I'm the outfitter.

 

[spike.t]

In my business I'm the agent, unless I am physically running the hunt then I'm the outfitter

so james you must be really coining it from both sides!! ..........couldnt resist in the name of transparency

 

[rookhawk]

@Traditional Mozambique Safaris and @James Jeffrey - HuntingAgent.com I understand. In the States we murder words so they no longer have any meaning.

Brokers in this country call themselves outfitters.

Booking agents call themselves outfitters. (and I even hate this term as they are not independent, they are AGENTS of the operator, not the client!)

It's all wrong as you both know.

I miss the good old days when outfitters were literally that, Von Langerke & Detmold, Abercrombie & Fitch, Griffin and Howe...they outfitted you with all the gear for your hunt. The agent would be "Ker & Downey" or another such firm that had an agent on the ground in the first world doing bookings. The agent's employer (often the same as the agent) would be the operator in Kenya or elsewhere that received you and paid the professionals their wages and provided the gear, lodging, food, etc. required in the bush. The professional hunter was either an employee or a co-owner in the operator.

Now anybody in the States that wants to broker hunts without a license is an "outfitter" when they are nothing more than selling the wares of others for a commission.

 

[BRICKBURN]

so james you must be really coining it from both sides!! ..........couldnt resist in the name of transparency

 

[BRICKBURN]

The devil is in the details as they say!

No

 

[JamesJ]

You guys are killing me.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@PHOENIX PHIL,
It takes folks a little while to realize that this site is a money making enterprise......business. The founder has a welcoming site for hunters to review all manner of hunting information. If there is a hunting question the answer can be found here. Opinions are offered and sometimes argued/debated.
At the same time sponsors pay for the privilege to post offers. Not all offers are created equal. Some offers, in my opinion, are over priced. To the new member that over priced offer may seem like a deal until much research is done. As mentioned nobody vets that offer or outfitter for the hunter.....he/she is expected to do that.
Who is to say what my intent is with regard to buying a particular type hunt. When I joined this site I had really only done one safari. Since then I have completed three more and have booked another. Three of these hunts were purchased here on AH. To date I have spent or agreed to spend in excess of $50,000 with an AH sponsor. I have made inquiries of outfitters and hunting agents publicly and privately about there advertised hunts. You can bet your last dollar that I ask a lot of probative questions before agreeing to a hunt. I have actually made a comment that some might view as unsupportive of an advertised hunt and had that outfitter email me and offer to work with me on a better price. Was I wrong to do that! I think several outfitters here know that I am serious about hunting and am apt to spend a great deal of money on doing what I enjoy and appreciate me asking questions. Am I wrong to do that? I have seen many offers here that I found the pictures of the lodge or hunting areas to be amazing and said so. Was I wrong to do that because I may not intend to buy the hunt from that outfitter? By the strict interpretation of the rule you reposted from Wayne I would be wrong. Right!? But because it's a flattering post nobody cares!
Flip that coin to unsupportive and it becomes a different proposition. Then comes the protection of the advertiser. The moderator or owner can remove those unsupportive comments.
You once told me in a PM that my questioning a hunt offer and price made you cringe. Why is that? Is it decorum your worried about or hunters stopping to ask themselves questions about the offer? Again I try to always wish the outfitter good luck in selling the hunt. If I neglect to do that sometimes then that's my mistake.

You asked
So for my own clarification on your post, do you think this rule is good orbad?

Answer
Jerome is free to make the rules as he owns the site.

The PM that we exchanged was started by you just to be clear. In that same PM, I explained to you why and have restated those same reasons in this thread why I cringed. And it wasn't you questioning the offer that made me cringe, it was declaring it too expensive for you that did that. Again if the offer isn't to your liking, don't buy it and let that be the end of it.

Don't recall ever saying or even questioning what your intent was in that thread. Only you know what your intention was. As such, the one making the offer, an AH sponsor does not know either. All the outfitter knows is that he made an offer, and presumably legitimate (not to be confused with a price of your liking) and you knocked it as being too expensive for you. Personally I don't think that's right. Furthermore, it would seem Jerome doesn't think it's right either since there is an AH rule against it.

As far as questions go about an offer, have at it! That is one reason we have this forum. I have never said not to ask questions regarding offers. When researching an offer, it's quite necesarry to ask questions and they be answered. But there is a difference between asking questions out of genuine interest in the offer for you or in the interest of others versus criticizing it as overpriced. They're not the same thing.

 

[Red Leg]

Some of you live in a terrible world. That is unfortunate. I have an "agent" though I prefer the word "consultant" who I have used regularly for a decade. His name is Jack Acheson Jr. He is conscientious, professional, and has yet to stear me wrong. I have booked other hunts on my own. But when entering a new environment, I have never regretted consulting him. I always strongly recommend every African newbie to find a trustworthy consultant as well.

It is a bit like buying a house in a strange city. You can do it without a real estate agent, but it can be a lot harder. Like buying that house, the trick is in finding the competent agent.

 

[rookhawk]

Some of you live in a terrible world. That is unfortunate. I have an "agent" though I prefer the word "consultant" who I have used regularly for a decade. His name is Jack Acheson Jr. He is conscientious, professional, and has yet to steer me wrong. I have booked other hunts on my own. But when entering a new environment, I have never regretted consulting him. I always strongly recommend every African newbie to find a trustworthy consultant as well.

Glad to hear, @Red Leg. But in the spirit of empathy, consider that the "consultant" role is probably the most abusive, most often exploiting/victimizing of anybody in the hunting chain of events. I've used one thrice in my hunting career and let me describe what I actually got:

Event 1 - Had a consultant that worked for Cabelas. Advised us to book this amazing all-u-can-shoot KS/MO late season snow goose hunt. Said we'd see millions, shoot hundreds of birds. We saw millions, that's true. We just had a terrible outfit with terrible spreads and in 3 days (left at the 2.5 day mark) 24 birds were shot. Absolutely no vetting of the hunt happened by the "consultant" or "agent" it appears. I chocked it up to bad luck at the time.

Event 2 - I "won" a bear hunt with Bob McConnell, Horseshoe Hills Outfitters. A friend also joined for the hunt. It turns out the outfitter wasn't the outfitter, he was the outfitter, operator, agent, scam artist. While in a decrepit camp government agents arrived in camp due to sanitation violations. (yeah, you have to be a big f-up to have health dept show up in northern Canada!) Rot. Mould. Workers and guides quitting several times while we were there for 5 days due to non-payment of wages. Baits weren't baited so no bears. I got lucky and killed a bear immediately upon arrival. My friend and several others saw no bears whatsoever. The "outfitter" was actually every role in the transaction and was useless.

Event 3 - I booked a cow elk hunt as a freezer filling event with worldwide adventures (who I didn't realize at the time was formerly Cabelas!). Guy that ran it appears in my opinion to be a psychopath. Running elk with a truck. No stalk. No walk. No glass. Just running around Ted Turner's ranch looking for cows that weren't there and chasing elk that all proved to be bulls. Disgusting. No money back from the scam artist "consultants" for illegal/unethical/misrepresented hunt. They claimed 98% success rate but 5 people that week alone had no elk so it was demonstrably false.

At any rate, that is par for the course. I've concluded I must do my own due diligence and there is no middle man I've found that is going to be a value add for me. When I needed representation none was provided. When I wanted a refund no advocate was to be found.

Solution: Found a PH I trust in Africa. I hand him a wad of cash and he meets me months later in Africa. We eat, hunt, drink and be merry. I no longer stress over the problems I had previously as I no longer pay for a middle man to provide a false sense of security.

I'm sure others like yourself have had good luck but I've not. I'm sure there are ethical agents/consultants right here on AH but how does a neophyte find an ethical consultant to help them not get robbed by an unethical operator when indeed, the consultant may be the crook?

 

[Art Lambart II]

Before I add my two cents to this discussion I'd like to know what it takes to be a "Free Range" or "Wild Africa" hunt. If the concession is managed or improved is it still a "Wild Africa" hunt.

 

[Red Leg]

Glad to hear, @Red Leg. But in the spirit of empathy, consider that the "consultant" role is probably the most abusive, most often exploiting/victimizing of anybody in the hunting chain of events. I've used one thrice in my hunting career and let me describe what I actually got:

Event 1 - Had a consultant that worked for Cabelas. Advised us to book this amazing all-u-can-shoot KS/MO late season snow goose hunt. Said we'd see millions, shoot hundreds of birds. We saw millions, that's true. We just had a terrible outfit with terrible spreads and in 3 days (left at the 2.5 day mark) 24 birds were shot. Absolutely no vetting of the hunt happened by the "consultant" or "agent" it appears. I chocked it up to bad luck at the time.

Event 2 - I "won" a bear hunt with Bob McConnell, Horseshoe Hills Outfitters. A friend also joined for the hunt. It turns out the outfitter wasn't the outfitter, he was the outfitter, operator, agent, scam artist. While in a decrepit camp government agents arrived in camp due to sanitation violations. (yeah, you have to be a big f-up to have health dept show up in northern Canada!) Rot. Mould. Workers and guides quitting several times while we were there for 5 days due to non-payment of wages. Baits weren't baited so no bears. I got lucky and killed a bear immediately upon arrival. My friend and several others saw no bears whatsoever. The "outfitter" was actually every role in the transaction and was useless.

Event 3 - I booked a cow elk hunt as a freezer filling event with worldwide adventures (who I didn't realize at the time was formerly Cabelas!). Guy that ran it appears in my opinion to be a psychopath. Running elk with a truck. No stalk. No walk. No glass. Just running around Ted Turner's ranch looking for cows that weren't there and chasing elk that all proved to be bulls. Disgusting. No money back from the scam artist "consultants" for illegal/unethical/misrepresented hunt. They claimed 98% success rate but 5 people that week alone had no elk so it was demonstrably false.

At any rate, that is par for the course. I've concluded I must do my own due diligence and there is no middle man I've found that is going to be a value add for me. When I needed representation none was provided. When I wanted a refund no advocate was to be found.

Solution: Found a PH I trust in Africa. I hand him a wad of cash and he meets me months later in Africa. We eat, hunt, drink and be merry. I no longer stress over the problems I had previously as I no longer pay for a middle man to provide a false sense of security.

I'm sure others like yourself have had good luck but I've not. I'm sure there are ethical agents/consultants right here on AH but how does a neophyte find an ethical consultant to help them not get robbed by an unethical operator when indeed, the consultant may be the crook?

Appreciate the additional data point. I have never used them. I merely noted that I regularly use a very competent one who has saved me a lot of frustration and expense by pointing me to opportunities I would not otherwise have found. I remain convinced that most inexperienced hunters going to Africa would be equally well served by similar competent consultancy.

 

[cls]

Interesting thread, I have been following the thread from the beginning and am glad I held off commenting sooner as my opinions have changed thanks to the insights that many of you have brought to the conversation.
That being said when it comes to value it really depends on how you interpret value.
Some people are perfectly happy shooting from the back of the Land Cruiser at a critter with a tag in it's ear and heading back to camp to hit the bar as soon as possible, while others want the total experience on large properties where it is primarily spot and stock and if you and the PH have done it right you may get a shot. It's not for me to decide who has received the better value although I know which way I would go.
Another point is it is up to us, the client, to do our homework. If you are ok with the first scenario then great but if you are not then you should be asking the questions prior to booking the hunt because once you are there it is too late with no one to blame but yourself.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Neale]

After following the posts on this thread I think there is one solution.
AH, (along with a small contribution from members) should sponsor me to experience and to vet all the offers advertised on this site. I could then give a short summary (rating) of each WRT experience,value and cost. Although the last one I will not have to worry about too much. May take a few years but I am up to the task.
By the way I am willing to do both high fenced and wild Africa

 

[BRICKBURN]

After following the posts on this thread I think there is one solution.
AH, (along with a small contribution from members) should sponsor me to experience and to vet all the offers advertised on this site. I could then give a short summary (rating) of each WRT experience,value and cost. Although the last one I will not have to worry about too much. May take a few years but I am up to the task.
By the way I am willing to do both high fenced and wild Africa

I was wondering how long it would be before a volunteer showed up.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Some of you live in a terrible world. That is unfortunate. ..........

That's the truth.

 

[CAustin]

@Neale I wish I had thought of this idea! Ok I will chip in the first $10 now you get the rest!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

After following the posts on this thread I think there is one solution.
AH, (along with a small contribution from members) should sponsor me to experience and to vet all the offers advertised on this site. I could then give a short summary (rating) of each WRT experience,value and cost. Although the last one I will not have to worry about too much. May take a few years but I am up to the task.
By the way I am willing to do both high fenced and wild Africa

You'll need an assitant you know.