Does velocity matter?

[Dwight Beagle]

I've never noticed deer dying quicker when shot with a 30-06 than deer shot with a 30-30. This with 150 grain bullets. As a rule I prefer higher velocity because there is less wind drift and the bullet gets there quicker, making accurate shooting easier. But I don't believe velocity kills better or quicker. For me there is also a point of diminishing return with the increase in recoil that comes from higher velocities.

 

[Jwg223]

My impression is the OP's proposed question could be paraphrased "If firing the same caliber, same weight bullet at both a low/standard velocity and a high velocity, is one more effective at quickly killing game?" It would appear most agree that with premium bullets, the higher velocity round will be more effective.

I believe some are trying to turn this into the old "light, fast bullet vs heavy, slow bullet" debate, which is a whole different argument.

You pretty-well nailed it. I want "general answers" that can then be "adapted to the specific"

What is "the specific" in my case?

The 5.56, after a deer. The 75gr Gold Dot, which I have found to expand to around 0.55" and penetrate around 20" (plenty to through/through a deer), but which leaves my barrel at 2500fps

Or the 55gr GMX 5.56, which I note leaving the barrel at 3100fps or so, and expanding to .45 calbier, while penetrating again around 20".

So is the slight expansion loss worth 600fps? Is 600fps worth anything at all, over 2000fps or so impact velocity?

Those who shoot people for a living and study the effects thereof (Dr. Roberts, among others), have told me "No/doesn't matter", but I also know hunters, who look at a block of jello and "expert" opinions and say "That's fine, but I've killed hundreds of..." "and I can tell you...that jello isn't the real world".

Hence my posing the question here. Among people who shoot animals, which are not motivated by opinions, TV shows, fear of dying, etc. but simply react to stimulus and environment.

I am aware that my choice of 5.56 is not one that allows me to "pick whatever bullet" and ethically kill deer with. I am attempting to make informed selection, therefor. Last year I used the 64gr Bonded round that Olin loads for the FBI. It worked well, but I honestly would have liked to see more damage from it. My shot placement was flawless, and the animal is dead. Just as fast and ethically as if I had used a .300WM and taken the same shot. Still, I'm looking to see what other options exist that may be better.

Also, this thread is again about generalities, to spawn healthy debate, and help others adapt what is discussed to THEIR circumstance.

 

[JMM]

This is a subject that I like personally and spend quite a bit of time on. First of all, I am a deer hunter/guide who also enjoys hunting in Africa. I shoot a lot of cull deer every year for West Texas ranchers and also guide hunters. Every year, hunters show up with premium ammo that they handload and others show up with their 10 year old box of Core Lokts that they shoot twice per year. Once to make sure it is still sighted in and once on a deer. I can tell you that I have tracked a lot more deer that were shot with premium bullets than with the old Remingtons. So, what have I learned? The Barnes TTSX in 150 to 180 grain weight has given the worst performance in whitetail deer with factory ammo. It appears that it runs too slow in the .308 ish caliber loads. I have tracked a lot of deer that have .308 holes going in and .308 holes going out. It is a combination of too low velocity/too small animal to make the bullet work effectively. I have ended up finding most of these deer, but not without a lot of tracking and sparse blood trails. Based on actual hunts, I have witnessed premium bonded bullets zip right thru deer without opening up which also results in lost game or lots of tracking.

I went on a plains game cull hunt this past year and shot 55 animals in 5 days. I carried GameKings, Nosler Ballistic Tips, Swift A Frames and Hornady Interlocks. For smaller game such as impala, any of cup/core bullets worked well in the 30-06. I did get some extensive meat damage in shots that were hit in the shoulder, much to the dismay of the meat processors. The Swifts were too tough for the smaller plains game and never had a chance to expand. .308 holes in and out. Found them all, but no fun looking in the tall grass without much blood trail. The A-frames worked perfectly in the wildebeest and zebra size game. Picture perfect expansion and transfer of energy. I studied the wounding characteristics of each shot, recovered bullets when I could and thought about how I could improve by having quicker kills, less meat damage and little or no tracking.

Thinking about transfer of energy, I loaded up 208 grain Amax at 2500 fps and shot some culls in West Texas after I got back from Africa. It kills every time, however, I had some run off with a chest full of destroyed organs and no blood trail due to no exit wound. Next I loaded up the Berger Hunting VLD in 165 grains. My thought was a little tougher bullet than the Amax and I wanted to try them. They worked 100% of the time. I had exit wounds on some of the deer and none made it past 50 yards. I was still searching for the bang/flop and less meat destruction. I thought about the TTSX again and wondered if I drove a light bullet very fast, I could get hydrostatic/hydraulic shock along with expansion and penetration. I loaded up the 110 grain TTSX at 3500 fps and went on a cull hunt. 100% bang/flops, 100% penetration and less meat damage than any of the other loads, irregardless of range/angle. I shot them close(50 yards) to far for me(250 yards), broadside, facing and angling away. Did not recover any bullets but internal destruction was devastating. Culling season starts in less than a month and I will start dropping off deer for Hunters for the Hungry. We will see if this load continues to work great. If not, I have several other bullets that I am anxious to try.

 

[Ryan]

This is a subject that I like personally and spend quite a bit of time on. First of all, I am a deer hunter/guide who also enjoys hunting in Africa. I shoot a lot of cull deer every year for West Texas ranchers and also guide hunters. Every year, hunters show up with premium ammo that they handload and others show up with their 10 year old box of Core Lokts that they shoot twice per year. Once to make sure it is still sighted in and once on a deer. I can tell you that I have tracked a lot more deer that were shot with premium bullets than with the old Remingtons. So, what have I learned? The Barnes TTSX in 150 to 180 grain weight has given the worst performance in whitetail deer with factory ammo. It appears that it runs too slow in the .308 ish caliber loads. I have tracked a lot of deer that have .308 holes going in and .308 holes going out. It is a combination of too low velocity/too small animal to make the bullet work effectively. I have ended up finding most of these deer, but not without a lot of tracking and sparse blood trails. Based on actual hunts, I have witnessed premium bonded bullets zip right thru deer without opening up which also results in lost game or lots of tracking.

I went on a plains game cull hunt this past year and shot 55 animals in 5 days. I carried GameKings, Nosler Ballistic Tips, Swift A Frames and Hornady Interlocks. For smaller game such as impala, any of cup/core bullets worked well in the 30-06. I did get some extensive meat damage in shots that were hit in the shoulder, much to the dismay of the meat processors. The Swifts were too tough for the smaller plains game and never had a chance to expand. .308 holes in and out. Found them all, but no fun looking in the tall grass without much blood trail. The A-frames worked perfectly in the wildebeest and zebra size game. Picture perfect expansion and transfer of energy. I studied the wounding characteristics of each shot, recovered bullets when I could and thought about how I could improve by having quicker kills, less meat damage and little or no tracking.

Thinking about transfer of energy, I loaded up 208 grain Amax at 2500 fps and shot some culls in West Texas after I got back from Africa. It kills every time, however, I had some run off with a chest full of destroyed organs and no blood trail due to no exit wound. Next I loaded up the Berger Hunting VLD in 165 grains. My thought was a little tougher bullet than the Amax and I wanted to try them. They worked 100% of the time. I had exit wounds on some of the deer and none made it past 50 yards. I was still searching for the bang/flop and less meat destruction. I thought about the TTSX again and wondered if I drove a light bullet very fast, I could get hydrostatic/hydraulic shock along with expansion and penetration. I loaded up the 110 grain TTSX at 3500 fps and went on a cull hunt. 100% bang/flops, 100% penetration and less meat damage than any of the other loads, irregardless of range/angle. I shot them close(50 yards) to far for me(250 yards), broadside, facing and angling away. Did not recover any bullets but internal destruction was devastating. Culling season starts in less than a month and I will start dropping off deer for Hunters for the Hungry. We will see if this load continues to work great. If not, I have several other bullets that I am anxious to try.

Thanks for the information. I am a fan of the 30-06 with 168 grain TTSX. They worked perfectly on caribou here in Alaska and on everything in Namibia but my longest distance there was around 200 yards so they still had pretty good speed. I've wondered how it would fair on longer distance shots and light animals. My concern is if I drew another Dall sheep tag again. And more recently I've bought a 7mm-08 and I've been concerned on it's effective limits. On the flip side I have thought about the Berger VLD's. They're effective, but the meat devastation I've seen is more than I like. Barnes claims the 7mm TTSX will fully mushroom at 1800 fps+ which is out to 500 yards on a load I'm working on and I won't shoot much beyond 300. Things to mull over.

 

[Wheels]

Speed kills.

Not the best example but.............

All else being equal, would you rather hit the water at 40mph or 140mph.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Pick the proper bullet for the situation would be my input to this discussion. Distances expected, animal size, bullet behavior all come into play. Speed as a decision for the bullet type will come about on its own.

It's been awhile since I've drawn a Coues deer tag. But when I go again it will likely be once again my 7mm Rem Mag with 140gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. My biggest Coues buck was shot from 250 yards out of this rifle. Bullet entered about midway back in the rib cage through the lungs and what was left of it was found under skin of offside shoulder. The buck never flinched as he went down. Perfect performance in my mind.

Use that same load on an elk or a moose at that distance and you may be chasing him for awhile with not recovering the animal a real possibility. The violent quick expansion of that bullet is not conducive to big animals. But the same rifle has downed Shiras moose, elk and even a Coues deer with 160gr Nosler Partitions. Of those 3 animals the Coues buck went the furthest after being shot.

Coues deer are small creatures and you need a more frangible bullet to create the type of damage you need if you're looking for a DRT shot. But they'll still go down for you with a bullet that has more controlled expansion.

I know this thread was more about deer hunting, but if applying this thought process to African hunting I want the bullet type that gives me the most chance for success for the largest of animals I may hunt, not the smallest.

But if I'm hunting for something specific such as a Whitetail only hunt, then pick the bullet/load you think works for just that one animal.

 

[Jwg223]

This is a subject that I like personally and spend quite a bit of time on. First of all, I am a deer hunter/guide who also enjoys hunting in Africa. I shoot a lot of cull deer every year for West Texas ranchers and also guide hunters. Every year, hunters show up with premium ammo that they handload and others show up with their 10 year old box of Core Lokts that they shoot twice per year. Once to make sure it is still sighted in and once on a deer. I can tell you that I have tracked a lot more deer that were shot with premium bullets than with the old Remingtons. So, what have I learned? The Barnes TTSX in 150 to 180 grain weight has given the worst performance in whitetail deer with factory ammo. It appears that it runs too slow in the .308 ish caliber loads. I have tracked a lot of deer that have .308 holes going in and .308 holes going out. It is a combination of too low velocity/too small animal to make the bullet work effectively. I have ended up finding most of these deer, but not without a lot of tracking and sparse blood trails. Based on actual hunts, I have witnessed premium bonded bullets zip right thru deer without opening up which also results in lost game or lots of tracking.

I went on a plains game cull hunt this past year and shot 55 animals in 5 days. I carried GameKings, Nosler Ballistic Tips, Swift A Frames and Hornady Interlocks. For smaller game such as impala, any of cup/core bullets worked well in the 30-06. I did get some extensive meat damage in shots that were hit in the shoulder, much to the dismay of the meat processors. The Swifts were too tough for the smaller plains game and never had a chance to expand. .308 holes in and out. Found them all, but no fun looking in the tall grass without much blood trail. The A-frames worked perfectly in the wildebeest and zebra size game. Picture perfect expansion and transfer of energy. I studied the wounding characteristics of each shot, recovered bullets when I could and thought about how I could improve by having quicker kills, less meat damage and little or no tracking.

Thinking about transfer of energy, I loaded up 208 grain Amax at 2500 fps and shot some culls in West Texas after I got back from Africa. It kills every time, however, I had some run off with a chest full of destroyed organs and no blood trail due to no exit wound. Next I loaded up the Berger Hunting VLD in 165 grains. My thought was a little tougher bullet than the Amax and I wanted to try them. They worked 100% of the time. I had exit wounds on some of the deer and none made it past 50 yards. I was still searching for the bang/flop and less meat destruction. I thought about the TTSX again and wondered if I drove a light bullet very fast, I could get hydrostatic/hydraulic shock along with expansion and penetration. I loaded up the 110 grain TTSX at 3500 fps and went on a cull hunt. 100% bang/flops, 100% penetration and less meat damage than any of the other loads, irregardless of range/angle. I shot them close(50 yards) to far for me(250 yards), broadside, facing and angling away. Did not recover any bullets but internal destruction was devastating. Culling season starts in less than a month and I will start dropping off deer for Hunters for the Hungry. We will see if this load continues to work great. If not, I have several other bullets that I am anxious to try.

Have you had any experience with federal fusion? Also, I think caliber may matter a ton with Barnes, as I have lots of friends who kill lots of animals with them in 5.56, and they expand well. This makes sense due to velocity. What distance were the failures shot at? I presume from your narrative that you inspected also the wound channel and it was very lacking?

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Have you had any experience with federal fusion? Also, I think caliber may matter a ton with Barnes, as I have lots of friends who kill lots of animals with them in 5.56, and they expand well. This makes sense due to velocity. What distance were the failures shot at? I presume from your narrative that you inspected also the wound channel and it was very lacking?

@Jwg223 , for what its worth, I used Federal Fusion for this last season in .300 Win Mag for a rental rifle.I was very impressed, and never had a single failure.

 

[Jwg223]

@Jwg223 , for what its worth, I used Federal Fusion for this last season in .300 Win Mag for a rental rifle.I was very impressed, and never had a single failure.

Good stuff! How did it compare to TSX/GMX, if you have any experience with those two in similar loadings?

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

It really depends on your application. If you want to use it for meat hunting, then I would go with the TSX. I have never used GMX.

 

[Jwg223]

It really depends on your application. If you want to use it for meat hunting, then I would go with the TSX. I have never used GMX.

Was the Fusion much more destructive?

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Was the Fusion much more destructive?

As mentioned before, your most important factor will always be shot placement. There is no doubt that lead core bullets cause more meat damage and bruising than mono-metal bullets, but certainly does not have the penetration capabilities, or the excellent ballistic coefficient of the latter. This is the very reason why many use the mono-metal bullets on their meat hunts. However, as I mentioned, it depends on your application. For my rental rifles, as mentioned in .300 Win Mag for my guests hunting with me, I use lead core bullets. This is more for the "less than perfect" shot. On a well placed shot on a broadside animal, how many hunting bullets on the shelf won't get the job done? To me the lead core bullets certainly cause more body trauma, whether it being bruising, or damage to organs. This can be from pieces of copper jacket and shrapnel flying all over the place internally. To me, this gives us and our tracking dogs the best opportunity at finding the animals that don't go down at the shot.
Any animal with severe internal trauma, won't be as reluctant to run as one with two small holes through them.

But, as I mentioned a couple of times, it depends on your application. Some of my rifles I use mono-metals, and others I use lead core, so in no way biased. Premium bullets is a must. I would have no hesitance in recommending the Federal Fusions. I used them this entire season after one of the Federal distributors hunted with me and left me a couple of boxes in .300 Mag. I would estimate that we probably took around 60 animals from Duiker, Oryx, Blue Wildebeest and Kudu with them, with not a single failure.

 

[Jwg223]

As mentioned before, your most important factor will always be shot placement. There is no doubt that lead core bullets cause more meat damage and bruising than mono-metal bullets, but certainly does not have the penetration capabilities, or the excellent ballistic coefficient of the latter. This is the very reason why many use the mono-metal bullets on their meat hunts. However, as I mentioned, it depends on your application. For my rental rifles, as mentioned in .300 Win Mag for my guests hunting with me, I use lead core bullets. This is more for the "less than perfect" shot. On a well placed shot on a broadside animal, how many hunting bullets on the shelf won't get the job done? To me the lead core bullets certainly cause more body trauma, whether it being bruising, or damage to organs. This can be from pieces of copper jacket and shrapnel flying all over the place internally. To me, this gives us and our tracking dogs the best opportunity at finding the animals that don't go down at the shot.
Any animal with severe internal trauma, won't be as reluctant to run as one with two small holes through them.

But, as I mentioned a couple of times, it depends on your application. Some of my rifles I use mono-metals, and others I use lead core, so in no way biased. Premium bullets is a must. I would have no hesitance in recommending the Federal Fusions. I used them this entire season after one of the Federal distributors hunted with me and left me a couple of boxes in .300 Mag. I would estimate that we probably took around 60 animals from Duiker, Oryx, Blue Wildebeest and Kudu with them, with not a single failure.

Great data! Thank-you!

For my unique application, the Fusion is actually the bullet with the highest BC, the 75gr Fusion (BC 0.373). It sounds like that is the way for me to go vs. the "zippier" 55gr GMX, if I want to cause maximum trauma/damage to the organs of my deer, which is my goal. I just wish it moved out at faster than 2500fps vs. the GMX's 3100+

 

[Bos Javanicus]

Well for my two cents worth.
With out doing the math or comparing bullet construction etc, in the bush I've noticed that a large bullet for calibre (which travels slower than a small bullet for calibre) seems to rock animals that much more and even more so if the bullets energy is fully expended inside the animal. Energy is wasted with a bullet that blows through, a bullet found under the skin on the far side has done its job just fine I think.
I'd rather shoot my .500NE with slow 570gn bullets than 450gn bullets of the same construction moving a at a quicker pace.