Does velocity matter?

[BRICKBURN]

Last time I checked, 200gr from a .375H&H at 3200fps disrupted the blood flow to the brain on plenty of Cape Buffalo.

and 250's seemed to do the trick on Bushbuck too.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I have never shot the same weight of projectile out of two different firearms so I can't answer your specific question.

All cartridges I reload are being pushed at 2800 to 2900 fps.
130, 180 and 250 grain TTSX from .270, .300 and .375 respectively have dropped Zebra, Hartebeest and Bushbuck (in respective order) in their tracks with boiler room shots.
(Never mind all the Deer, Elk, Moose and Antelope)

Giraffe, ran 400 yards with two 180's in the boiler room.
Giraffe, ran 30 yards with two 130's in the boiler room.
Oribi, 50 yards with 1 250 in the boiler room.

Placement is always key.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Speaking of energy, what if one uses a 150gr TTSX instead of a 180gr TTSX, both of which, for the sake of this argument, will through/through the game animal. Energy will be very similar, but not velocity. Would you expect the 150 to produce more dramatic results, or not really?

I believe so. As I mentioned, some hunters rent my .375H&H for their Cape Buffalo hunts. I run 200gr GS Customs in that rifle at 3200fps. Comparing the results to a great array of dangerous game rifles from hunters who have hunted with me, there is a difference in how quickly they go down, without a doubt.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

and 250's seemed to do the trick on Bushbuck too.

Oh yes!

 

[adgunner]

Speaking of energy, what if one uses a 150gr TTSX instead of a 180gr TTSX, both of which, for the sake of this argument, will through/through the game animal. Energy will be very similar, but not velocity. Would you expect the 150 to produce more dramatic results, or not really?

Well, one can do the math:

E = (M x V²) ÷ K

where K = 450,435 and is derived from (2 x 32.1739 x 7000),
M is the weight of the projectile, in grains,
V is the velocity in feet per second and
E is the energy in foot pounds.

The fine line you must draw for achieving maximum results with minimal bullet weight is the factor to consider. You can drive a hypersonic lightweight bullet to the target but if there isn't enough mass you will not achieve the penetration required, shock effectively dissipating prior to arriving at the vitals. In your example the 150 grain would likely impart more energy, given the same point of impact. On a piece ballistic gel, that would hold true. However a heavier bullet can overcome the unknown factors that occur with hunting, like clipping a bone etc ... so it is after all about tradeoffs in the end.

 

[edward]

Do you notice a more immediate reaction,or just faster death?

please explain the difference.

 

[Code4]

Further to my original post.
I believe you can't just say 'this projectile, at this velocity, will work.

One of the most emphatic kills I've ever made was at 200 yards on a mature Red Stag at 200 yards with a 140 Sierra SptBt from my 7x57. Now that's a projectile that doesn't get much air play these days and wouldn't be recommend for an expensive overseas hunt. Animal dead before it hit the ground. No exit. The entire chest cavity, heart and lungs were a bloody pulp. Would I use that in Africa on small plains game ? Possibly but I would have a doubt. On a mature feral camel bull. No way.

The other side of the coin with again my 7x57. 175 Woodleigh PPSN on a feral camel bull. Maybe 150 paces. What was amazing to see were multiple shock waves travelling across its skin post impact from the energy transfer. No expansion, complete penetration of lungs (tumbling) and exit, multiple hurried follow up shots trying to get it down quickly.

The second most devastating shot was a Springbok (also at 200 yards) with a 165 Woodleigh PPSN from a .308W. Again dead on its feet, no exit and bruising under the jaw where it hit the ground going straight down. Would I use that on plains game ? Absolutely. On a Bull camel. Hmmm possibly.

Use what is known to work and learn from others mistakes.

 

[colorado]

Compare the 308 Winchester (180g at 2650 fps) with the 300 Weatherby (180g at 3250 fps) both using premium 180g bullets (Swift A-Frame) on elk. Velocity (given the same bullet weight and premium bullets) kills. No question. You can try and make up for it with a 308 by shortening the range, using bullets that expand quicker (Sierra Game Kings) that will still penetrate and hold together at the lower velocity and have success. But it's a catch up game. That being said you pay for the extra velocity in recoil, shootability and barrel life. I bought a well used Mark V in 270 Weatherby that is very accurate, but I like our 270 Win rifles better. Not recoil shy, just don't see the diffrence being worth the weight/recoil of the Weatherby. On the other hand I love my 500 Jeffery, go figure ...

 

[Art Lambart II]

This is the age old question speed vs weight, every hunter knowingly or unknowingly is in one camp or the other. I like many others prefer a heavy slower projectile, more weight means straight line penetration, you can't break both shoulders if your light weight bullet deflects when it hits bone.

 

[Jwg223]

please explain the difference.

By "more immediate reaction", I mean an animal that jumps violently and begins flopping/stiffens/locks up and drops/ seems "scrambled" and runs into a tree, etc. vs. an animal that shows little reaction to the hit except to run, but collapses soon, nonetheless. Both may die in 15-20 seconds, but one traveled a lot further.

 

[Rob404]

Last time I checked, 200gr from a .375H&H at 3200fps disrupted the blood flow to the brain on plenty of Cape Buffalo.

Someday you'll have to share your recipe for your 200g load,

 

[Buckdog]

It is called HYDROSTATIC SHOCK and it is what turns the vital organs to jello when the energy of the bullet is transferred to the animal which is mostly liquid especially the lungs. the faster the bullet is traveling the more ft pds of energy it has to transfer to the target. think about how small a 180 gr bullet really is but yet scraming out of a 30 cal mag it can knock a 1000 pd animal straight down and that's energy transfer!
SPEED KILLS!

 

[Ryan]

What have you all seen in game? Say, if you take a .308 with a 165gr projectile vs a .300 Weatherby with the same 165gr projectile? Will the several hundred fps on target product a more reliable or quicker incapacitation? I know what physics books claim...but what do you all see in the field, especially those of you who have shot a statistically significant number of critters.

Going back to the original question and parameters including the same good shot placement and reasonable range of under 200 yards it depends more on the animal and how calm it is. If calm small to average sized animals like springbok and warthog are going to drop just as fast with both, probably right there. The medium to large sized stuff from say hartebest to kudu and zebra will probably go down a little faster with the magnum. Eland would be the most critical since it's such a large mass, where a magnum would have the advantage of all the more hydrostatic shock to shut it down. This comes from my experience using a 30-06 with 168 gr TTSX bullets on 8 animals in Namibia that never knew I was there from springbok to kudu and zebra. The farthest any went was 20 yards. Things change when you add an alert or stressed animal. Adrenelin will keep them on their feet longer. In that case the magnum will have a greater effect dropping any animal faster with greater initial shock and trauma overuling the adenelin.

 

[sestoppelman]

Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor came to literally hate each other over this argument. I had a similar experience as above with my first two deer as a kid. Shooting my dads .284 using the same 140 gr Sierra bullets, the two deer were feet in the air dead before hitting the ground. Very dramatic and as noted above their insides were just a mess and we were picking little pcs of bullet jacket out of the venison at every meal! On small deer sized critters at relatively high velocity its a devastating combination but not so much for larger game, those lightly constructed bullets wont give adequate penetration usually. Another school of thought is the energy dump as opposed to thru and thru. Choose you preference. Thru and thru means full penetration and usually a good blood trail. Energy dump theory often amounts to not needing a blood trail to follow.

 

[sestoppelman]

Well, one can do the math:

E = (M x V²) ÷ K

where K = 450,435 and is derived from (2 x 32.1739 x 7000),
M is the weight of the projectile, in grains,
V is the velocity in feet per second and
E is the energy in foot pounds.

The fine line you must draw for achieving maximum results with minimal bullet weight is the factor to consider. You can drive a hypersonic lightweight bullet to the target but if there isn't enough mass you will not achieve the penetration required, shock effectively dissipating prior to arriving at the vitals. In your example the 150 grain would likely impart more energy, given the same point of impact. On a piece ballistic gel, that would hold true. However a heavier bullet can overcome the unknown factors that occur with hunting, like clipping a bone etc ... so it is after all about tradeoffs in the end.

Or in slightly simpler terms, Velocity squared, X (times) bullet weight, divided by 450240 = energy.

 

[edward]

Or in slightly simpler terms, Velocity squared, X (times) bullet weight, divided by 450240 = energy.

which has not nothing to do with real world killing results.

 

[sestoppelman]

Of course it does. It is the means by which we measure the suitability of one round over another for a specific task. It has everything to do with real world killing results as well and is what this thread is all about if I am not mistaken. I was merely pointing out what to me is a simpler way of using the formula. Its the same basic formula though.

 

[colorado]

We get back to the 47-70 vs 458 Lott argument. The low velocity folks would have us think that the 45-70 is a better DG cartridge with hard cast bullets and claim that it penetrates better. Truth being, if the bullet construction is right for the Lott (A-Frame, North Fork soft point, Woodleigh WeldCore/PP, etc.) and it retains 90% plus of it's weight and exhibits controlled expansion there is no comparison. I'm not a "speed freak". I shoot 150g Partitions at 3000 fps (a bit fast) out of my 270 and the 570g bullets out of 500 Jeffery lope along at 2300 fps. That's not saying a 45-70 isn't good brown bear medicine, just that all things being equal the Lott will hit harder.

 

[Clayton]

Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor came to literally hate each other over this argument...

On reading the OP, these two were the first thought I had. Oh how they would have loved to get in on this on. I never met either gentleman, but I'm sure Elmer would need a fresh cigar while Jack would need a fresh ribbon for his typewriter.

 

[CDorroh]

My impression is the OP's proposed question could be paraphrased "If firing the same caliber, same weight bullet at both a low/standard velocity and a high velocity, is one more effective at quickly killing game?" It would appear most agree that with premium bullets, the higher velocity round will be more effective.

I believe some are trying to turn this into the old "light, fast bullet vs heavy, slow bullet" debate, which is a whole different argument.