The ultimate Elk Cartridge? - Does a Man-Bun make you more sensitive to recoil?

Apologies to our Gen-X hunters out there if I step on your toes. I enjoy reading and watching videos about other hunters thoughts on best cartridges for various hunting applications. This morning I watched one that made me wonder WTF is going on with today's hunters?

The hunter was about late twenties to early thirties and lived somewhere out west where he hunts Elk every year. He was musing on what makes the ideal Elk cartridge. A big Magnum like a 300wm or a smaller, lighter round like the 6.5cm? He cited studies which concluded that bullet caliber and weight and energy do not matter at all or much anyways and that first shot accuracy is the most critical variable. Not hard to argue so far. He also cited a study by the US Army stating that soldiers rifle accuracy and shotgun accuracy fell off once recoil exceeded 11 ft-lbs. Really?? I wondered if the test subjects were field cooks or Delta operators, lol.

The author then went on to say that he flinches when he shoots a 308. At this point I noticed his Man-Bun and was reminded of a study of the pussification of the American male and that American men of today have a 20% lower testosterone level when compared to the men of 1947. Anyways in the end this so-called expert claimed that the absolute best Elk cartridge is the 22 Creedmore but that since it is not legal in all Elk hunting states, he recommends the 6.5 Creedmore over other notable choices like the 338wm or 300wm or 7mm RM etc. His argument is that lung tissue is easy to damage and if you shoot an Elk thru both lungs with a 22 it kills them just as dead as if you shoot them with a 338 Lapua and it won't hurt your shoulder. Well Hell, who knew? His logic is that all hunters shoot light recoiling rifles better than the big heavy hitters like 300wm thus they will place their hits better on game in the field if they shoot a mild cartridge and the animal will not know any better.

I have been prepping for a fall Elk & Moose hunt and was struggling with the choice between a 338wm or a 7mm RM and all this time all I needed to do was bring my 243. For the record the rifle that I shoot most accurately is my Sako S20 Hybrid in 243 with a 5-25x scope. The recoil is nothing but the big ass tgt scope is useless for hunting unless you are shooting very long shots from a solid rest in open territory. Think plains prairie dog or coyote maybe pronghorn. Not much else. That said the rifles I shoot best also include a 375HH, 7mmRM, 30-06 and a 7mm/08. All of those kick more than my 243 and all of them have proper hunting glass on them. So, I cannot buy the theory that recoil reduces accuracy. It just forces hunters to practice and concentrate on fundamental marksmanship technique. But, for the record, my hair is not long enough to pull back into a Man-Bun and likely never will be. My daughter is 5' 10" and is a size 2. She weighs maybe 120lbs soaking wet and shoots a 308 and a 45acp just fine. She can still pull her hair into a bun but it does not seem to impact her marksmanship.

Any of you Nimrods out there ever take a Moose or a Elk with a 243? or a 223? Maybe it will sound more effective if I called it my Sako 243 a 6mm/08? 80g Barnes TTSX or Fed Fusion bullets. How does it do? Us big Magnum hunters want to know. Pic below of my 243 Moose rifle attached for entertainment value only.

This kick of using the smallest bullet borders on being unethical to me. Do the animal a favor and shoot the biggest thing at it that you have total control and accuracy/prowess with. If that is only a .243, well good luck. In investing and life, there is a concept of "margin of safety" and i think it matters for cartridges used in hunHe'll, not every bullet is placed perfectly -- hunt long enough and you will pull one, hit a branch or misjudge the wind. Then bullet mass and velocity matter.

I have been debating an elk hunt and then debating do I shoot one of my .300 win mags (I used a BAR in .300wm to kill the only elk I have ever had a shot at and that was an AT&T reach out and touch somebody 600 yard shot which is long for me) or my .375H&H or my new .404J that is being built.

On ranches that I hunt in Texas, we'll let you use a 6.5 man-bun but the pigs will run off often. Kills deer fine assuming proper bullet and placement. I'm not saying a .22 long rifle won't kill a cape buffalo with proper placement" but I don't think it wise or ethical.

Hell, go back to spears and slingshots. With proper placement....

I have no personal experience with a .243 on moose or elk. I’ve got a buddy that killed quite a few elk with one though. He never had problems.

While agree with the logic that people shoot smaller lighter recoiling rifles better I think it’s also flawed logic. So let’s say it costs me $1.25 to reload 22 creedmoor, and $2.50 to reload .300 Win Mag. Which one am I likely to shoot more? Also I can comfortably shoot 50 rounds of that 22 creedmoor in one range session. The .300 win mag I’m probably done after 15-20 rounds. The bottom line is I’m more likely to shoot the smaller caliber more often due to a matter of cost and recoil, therefore I will probably know that rifle better. But if I were to spend just as much time with the .300 Win Mag I would likely shoot it just as well.

The .22 cals can be very effective and while not my first choice I do know that a 63gr hammer bullet out of a .223 Remington will entirely penetrate the chest cavity of an oryx (yes I’ve done it because it was the rifle I had in my hands when I had to finish of a poorly hit archery shot oryx). Would the .243 with an 80gr Barnes take out an elks lungs? I have no doubt. Will the bigger guns get through big shoulder bones easier? Yes.

My personal opinion is that there is not a finer elk cartridge than the .300 Winchester magnum. Loaded with 180gr Barnes TTSX it absolutely pounds large ungulates. But I shoot a lot and am very familiar with the rifle and cartridge so I shoot it very accurately. Use what you want just remember what you have in your hands and pick shots accordingly is always my opinion.

I've taken a lot of elk. Some with a 7mm RM, but most with a 338 WM. Also took a moose with my 338. For those that can't handle the recoil, add a suppressor.

I’d also add that the 6.5 creedmoor is fine on elk in my opinion. Bullet selection matters for the creedmoor family though. My buddy shot a beautiful bull elk at like 380 yards last fall with 6.5 creed. Loaded with 124gr hammer hunters at 2994 fps. I put together the handloads for him which is why I know that specific load data. Anyways that bullet went in ripped the heart in half jellied the bottom of the lungs and the bull took about 5 steps and tipped over dead.

I do think in the small caliber discussion people get hung up on caliber when really they should be discussing bullet selection.

I do still lean towards bigger is better but have been using smaller and smaller cartridges these days with some excellent results.

My elk rifles start at 338, but is mostly a 9.3x62 or 375 H&H.

My blackpowder elk rifle is a traditional hopkins & allen underhammer in 12 bore.

Seams to be going that way. There is a really large forum on western hunting and the amount of people that have killed deer, elk, moose, and bear over there is stagering with a 223 or the various 6mm cartridges is staggering. There is one thread with thousands of post mortom pics. I don't get it. Most are shooting Sierra TMK's or various Berger bullets.

I had my daughter shoot an elk 2-3 years ago with her 7 PRC with a 180 ELDM at roughly 250 yards. She hit it perfect on shoulder. Killed it quickly but what a mess, dressing that bull was disgusting. She is back to shooting LRX's.

Hornedfrogbbq said:

This kick of using the smallest bullet borders on being unethical to me. Do the animal a favor and shoot the biggest thing at it that you have total control and accuracy/prowess with. If that is only a .243, well good luck. In investing and life, there is a concept of "margin of safety" and i think it matters for cartridges used in hunHe'll, not every bullet is placed perfectly -- hunt long enough and you will pull one, hit a branch or misjudge the wind. Then bullet mass and velocity matter.

I have been debating an elk hunt and then debating do I shoot one of my .300 win mags (I used a BAR in .300wm to kill the only elk I have ever had a shot at and that was an AT&T reach out and touch somebody 600 yard shot which is long for me) or my .375H&H or my new .404J that is being built.

On ranches that I hunt in Texas, we'll let you use a 6.5 man-bun but the pigs will run off often. Kills deer fine assuming proper bullet and placement. I'm not saying a .22 long rifle won't kill a cape buffalo with proper placement" but I don't think it wise or ethical.

Hell, go back to spears and slingshots. With proper placement....

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It doesn't even border on unethical, it IS unethical! Respect the animal you are hunting enough to use the right tool for the job. Period!

Have used 280 to 348 Winchester for elk 38 & moose 4. Best was 338-06 or 338wm.

I’m bored today, so I’ll build a stray man and burn him down on a social media forum.

BAY said:

I’m bored today, so I’ll build a straw man and burn him down on a social media forum.

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Fixed it for you.

There is no question that at the range, with say 50 shots, my shooting with my PRS rifle a +20lbs 6.5PRC with almost no felt recoil or my 22LR trainer will be better than my 300PRC. This is because of recoil. But hunting is not the range. I can honestly say that in a hunting situation, shooting at game, whether thats shooting a 300PRC or 12 gauge with 3" magnums or something small I have never thought about or felt recoil. The only difference I see is spotting your shots for follow up shots as needed. But that rarely is needed......

But it is also absolutely true that with today's ballistics and bullets that smaller faster stuff kills effectively and ethically. I am in the camp of you do you, I'll do me. I won't judge you, you don't judge me.

I’m in the bigger is better camp. I don’t agree with the modern philosophy of using fast moving small bullets to try and kill large game. I don’t care about trajectories, recoil, short actions or rifle weight. I care about delivering enough energy to quickly and humanely kill the animal with a reasonable margin for error. Tiny fast bullets don’t give enough margin for error given the vagaries of nature.

Legitimate elk cartridges have bullet calibers of .284 or larger and bullet weights of 140gr and larger. Anything less is unethical IMO but you do you. If it’s legal I support your right to use whatever you want but I absolutely do not agree with your choice.

It is all down to physics.
In general terms the less quick back the more accurate. This has nothing to do with the capacity of an individual to handle recoil or not. So all other things begin equal, a 6.5 should be more accurate than a 7 rem mag. Individual rifles will vary.
Having said that. I’m not about to bring my 6.5 creed to an elk hunt. I need to be able to take shots less than perfect. Maybe need to go through some bone and still have a pass through for tracking!.
I’m not going to wait a whole year too take only a perfectly broadside shot and pass any other opportunity. But at the same time I’m not bringing a 375 to it either. I need to be confident in my shot to 400 to 500 yards. So a 7mag my choice.

I live in elk country and grew up hunting elk, I have shot elk with everything from a 6.5 PRC to 338 Lapua Ackley improved and from ranges of point blank to over 1100 yards,
I would venture a speculate there’s very few on this website who have taken as many as I have in the past 60+ years, They are tough critters that can be very hard to kill maybe not as hard to kill as comparable sized animals and Africa, but a 6,5 Creedmoor is not an elk gun, I almost always get three out tags in my resident state of Wyoming and frequently hunt surrounding states. I participated in the development of the 22 Creedmoor many many years ago and currently own two of them. With the right bullets, they make a perfectly fine varmint rifle and I’ve taken a couple of antelope with them.
I’ve shot several elk, especially in the dark timber with a 375 H&H and in the right circumstances, it can be a great elk rifle.
Years ago while guiding an elk hunter, I finished off his elk after a 2 mile track with the only gun I had with me, a Remington XP 10 221 fireball. I shot many small varmints and lots of prairie dogs with that gun but it’s no elk gun.
My personal opinion is the 6.5 Creedmoor is not a big game cartridge for anything bigger than an envelope or Whitetail deer. And I would question the ethics of anybody who tries to use one on elk Moose or bears. And yes, I have personally witnessed an Inuit in northern Canada taking a grizzly with a 243 but that’s very different circumstances..

One should be moderate in the choice of caliber. Although I'm a fan of the 243win, I don't think it's an ideal choice for shooting elk. I also have 300wm, 3006 and 8x68 in the closet. I hunt most game with the 243, and use it every day. He will knock down any animal if hit in the chest. The choice of bull is very important. With a bonded bull of 100 gr, 243 is ready for anything and everything. However, for ethical shooting, I consider distance to the target more important than caliber. If someone shoots an elk from 500-600-700 meters, I consider it unethical. I know that sometimes such a distance is imposed by itself and that the hunter has no choice, but it is not logical to me that this true hunter talks about how I am not normal because I shoot a deer at 120yds with a 243, and they are ok because at 600yds they shoot with a 300win mag.

Most Elk on Western public land are extremely pressured and despite putting in your best hunting efforts, even the best hunter is likely going to get only a small window of seeing a bull in the early morning of last bit of light. And were we hunt in Colorado this is almost always (80 percent of the time) across a canyon 300-600 yards away. In this instance there is never enough time to get closer (across a canyon) before the window and Elk are long gone. Not to mention if you do get to the other side of the canyon the vertical terrain with 20’ tall scrub oak makes it impossible to see anything.

In this situation a Mag like 7mm rem mag, 300 mag or my buddy has had a lot of great luck with his 280 AI, is very effective and a large advantage especially when paired with a Leupold CDS scope. Not because they are needed to kill an elk at 150 yards but they are very helpful shooting across a canyon at 300-600 yards.

I would rather not shoot over 300 yards honestly, but the public land situation of high pressure, drones and thermals (we see all the time people using illegally) and most guys have a long range gun they are trying to shoot 800 yards with has changed the ranges needed to shoot, is you don’t want to dramatically decrease you success rate.

Just replying to the OP's title. Yes I think a man bun has a direct reflection on sensitivity!

I dont buy into the smaller is better craze, yes in perfect conditions they work but marign of error is a real thing. you can do everything right and unforeseen things happen animal takes step, twig that you couldn't see wind gust ect. all my elk have been with a 30 nosler. hunting is not target shooting and in the heat of the moment on an often times paid for hunt it few people actually have the will power to turn down a shot when a guide is whispering in your ear now or never.

Hornedfrogbbq said:

On ranches that I hunt in Texas, we'll let you use a 6.5 man-bun but the pigs will run off often.

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I too have noticed a considerable difference between the decisiveness of the AR15 calibers and the 308/300 cartridges. I’ve been very successful with the Blackout at reasonable ranges, but it’s impossible not to see the difference in the field.