Politics

[SaintPanzer]

View attachment 741277
This meme is my opinion on people saying you shouldn’t protest ICE. Whether you agree with ICE’s massive presence right now or not, protesting is a constitutional right. Throwing snowballs is what caused the Boston Massacre, one of the major lead ups to the Revolution.

Let’s read the Declaration of Independence to remind ourselves why we went to war with the government to form anew.

“He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.” - Trump recently banned states from passing any laws against artificial intelligence, yet isn’t passing any laws of his own to control it.

“He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.” - Trump has had ICE camp outside of immigration courts and arrest people as they walk inside to prevent them from becoming legal.

“He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.” - trump has appointed dozens of unqualified people into judicial positions and other positions of power simply for the fact that they are loyal to him. Pam Bondi being a prime example.

“He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.” - Trump has made a handful of new offices, “department of government efficiency” being the biggest waste of taxpayer money in history. It saved almost nothing (provable) and cost taxpayers significantly.

“
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:”

Trump has been protecting ice agents from any form of accountability for their countless crimes. Such as kidnapping children away from their parents for hours at a time, breaking into homes without judicial warrant, his tariffs are taxes without representation, and he has been deporting people without any opportunity for trial. The constitution doesn’t protect citizens, it protects “People” meaning even illegal immigrants and criminals are given due process of the law to have a chance to defend themselves, and must be considered innocent until proven guilty.

Trump is trying to send the military to back ICE, which is a violation of our 4th amendment rights AND one of the reasons for the Declaration of Independence.

If the founding fathers were alive today they would be revolting just like they revolted then.

As for ICE needlessly killing people and people justifying then as “they’re on edge” well the fact is that it doesn’t matter if you’re on edge. You’re supposed to be trained to handle stress, fear, etc. They are committing actual war crimes such as gassing neighborhoods with lethal toxic gas (causes total organ failure within hours of exposure, a Geneva convention war crime) among using sonic weapons on non combatants.

As for Greenland, it’s one of the last primary places of native peoples in the world. Over 80% are indigenous there. You really want to commit another massacre of indigenous peoples to get some extra land? Hitler wanted more natural resources and invaded Poland. Resources is not a valid excuse.

As for Venezuela, let’s say another country kills all of Trump’s security, and kidnaps him to bring him to their own country. Would the United States not consider that an act of war???

“Justification” is not sufficient as morally acceptable reasoning.

Hey, did you see the part where the redcoats were successfully defended in court by John Adams?

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Aren’t the fishermen selling to the Chinese the ones selling out the rest of you then?

Not that simple fishing enterprises are high risk investments so banks will not always finance them a lot of lobster buyers were also money lenders ergo a lot of captains are indebted to a certain buyer and cannot just switch who they sell too. Last I checked licensing alone was 600k a new boat goes 1.2-1.5m and the longest terms a bank will offer is 10 years with ten percent down , that’s if the bank is in a lending position to take on that kind of note.

 

[Brent in Az]

Seismic activity generated at Virgina Tech.

 

[Rifleman97]

Who told you that ice agents and CBP agents are not held accountable? You do know that every case of a Leo that caused the death of anyone goes before a grand jury don’t you? Or does that part irrelevant to the programming? You should try to at least learn something of the basics before you start posting bs.

You gonna ignore the ICE shootings, war crimes using potentially lethal toxic gas on legal citizens,, children kidnapped and robbed of belongings by ICE just for ICE to immediately sell them for cash, kidnapped very young children from their parents for hours at a time, all of the Trump actions that are nearly identical to king George’s reasons for our Declaration of Independence, the parallels of the US between right now and the colonists, and all of my other points? Or are you just gonna find one point you think you might be able to argue and ignore the rest so you can tell yourself you’re winning the argument?

I said in my comment that LEO are held accountable and have a court hearing. But where was the court hearing for the shooter of whatever that lady was named in Minneapolis? Because Vance claims that ICE agents have absolute immunity in direct response to that shooting. That will be proven false in any reasonable court, but if it makes its way to the Supreme Court there’s no way trump’s judges will rule against him. Historically they haven’t, and even came up with presidential immunity on a surprise ruling with absolutely no constitutional backing to make sure he can’t go to jail no matter what crime he commits.

Maybe you should read some of the original texts of the Declaration of Independence, the constitution, read a bit of history on pre revolutionary war America and pre WWII Germany. Because the 3 have a lot in common right now.

And before you go and assume, I’m not a liberal or a democrat. I just don’t side with having massive government that controls every minute aspect of everyday life. Trump’s incorporation of Palantir should terrify you. ICE is using palantir to know the absolute location of pretty much every person in America, down to an accuracy of a few feet, and uses meta data to guess the race of the individual, their politics, if enough is public they know their name, social security number (thanks to Elon’s massive data leak recently from the stolen Social Security database) and more.

Those who refuse to learn history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Betterinthebush]

You gonna ignore the ICE shootings, war crimes using potentially lethal toxic gas on legal citizens,, children kidnapped and robbed of belongings by ICE just for ICE to immediately sell them for cash, kidnapped very young children from their parents for hours at a time, all of the Trump actions that are nearly identical to king George’s reasons for our Declaration of Independence, the parallels of the US between right now and the colonists, and all of my other points? Or are you just gonna find one point you think you might be able to argue and ignore the rest so you can tell yourself you’re winning the argument?

I said in my comment that LEO are held accountable and have a court hearing. But where was the court hearing for the shooter of whatever that lady was named in Minneapolis? Because Vance claims that ICE agents have absolute immunity in direct response to that shooting. That will be proven false in any reasonable court, but if it makes its way to the Supreme Court there’s no way trump’s judges will rule against him. Historically they haven’t, and even came up with presidential immunity on a surprise ruling with absolutely no constitutional backing to make sure he can’t go to jail no matter what crime he commits.

Maybe you should read some of the original texts of the Declaration of Independence, the constitution, read a bit of history on pre revolutionary war America and pre WWII Germany. Because the 3 have a lot in common right now.

And before you go and assume, I’m not a liberal or a democrat. I just don’t side with having massive government that controls every minute aspect of everyday life. Trump’s incorporation of Palantir should terrify you. ICE is using palantir to know the absolute location of pretty much every person in America, down to an accuracy of a few feet, and uses meta data to guess the race of the individual, their politics, if enough is public they know their name, social security number (thanks to Elon’s massive data leak recently from the stolen Social Security database) and more.

Those who refuse to learn history are doomed to repeat it.

If it’s not too much trouble, would you please ask the criminal aliens in my country to go back home? Thank you.

 

[Brent in Az]

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Nevermind the possibility of a failure to feed malfunction. There's also the issue of having both hands on your sidearm while dealing with a non complaint individual.

Generally, the weapon remained holstered when dealing with non-compliant individuals who wanted to get physical. Then the night stick was unholstered. The handgun was unholstered ONLY when a weapon was in play and only discharged as last resort. And only after the obligatory verbal warning TWICE "Stop or I'll shoot." Those were the official rules of engagement. Fortunately, I never had to test them. Three times I fired my 45 in three years. None of the situations applied to the rules ... not really. Once I did lock and load and issue the verbal warning but I chose not to shoot. Would have been a good shoot and perp escaped. I could tell you why I didn't shoot but no one would believe me. Divine intervention I think.

I'm sure I could clear a jammed 1911 faster than I could recock the hammer or fiddle with side safety.

 

[Red Leg]

Now go back and read Mask of Command and review the part about how personal leadership is no longer needed/relevant in the nuclear age.

"Oddly". "Thoroughly." Tomato/Tomahto.

Yes, he got some things right. But then there was that. One can't just rest on one's laurels, can one? In this case, he deserved the rebuke because he was not thorough in his research. As the stock traders say, past performance is not an indicator of future results.

Fair point. He did somewhat miss the possibility that we would continue to figure out how to robustly pursue politics by other means in the nuclear age.

Spoke with him at some length around 87 (while he would have been writing "Mask of Command). It would have been interesting to have had the same conversation even in say 92 following Desert Storm or following his research leading to "The Iraq War" where he was very critical of Rumsfeld's centralized control of the battlefield from the Pentagon. But, "Face of Battle" is a brilliant treatise.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I know of no LEO that would walk around without a round in the chamber. A guy with a knife in hand could get to you before you could jack that round in the chamber, especially if they were as close as you say they were.

They weren't that close at all. Not sure how you made such an inferrance. There's always at least two MPs so not like I'm facing off with an armed beligerant on my own. I'm agile enough and a pretty big boy back then. Not terribly worried about some guy who's drunk sticking a knife in me before I can get a gun on him. Truth be told, I'm not sure I would have shot either one if they'd refused to drop their knives. They just weren't that much of a threat. But I made them believe I would do it and that's what counts. We didn't have mace then. Army just started issuing it before I was discharged.

 

[pilar]

Generally, the weapon remained holstered when dealing with non-compliant individuals who wanted to get physical. Then the night stick was unholstered. The handgun was unholstered ONLY when a weapon was in play and only discharged as last resort. And only after the obligatory verbal warning TWICE "Stop or I'll shoot." Those were the official rules of engagement. Fortunately, I never had to test them. Three times I fired my 45 in three years. None of the situations applied to the rules ... not really. Once I did lock and load and issue the verbal warning but I chose not to shoot. Would have been a good shoot and perp escaped. I could tell you why I didn't shoot but no one would believe me. Divine intervention I think.

I'm sure I could clear a jammed 1911 faster than I could recock the hammer or fiddle with side safety.

I didn’t know the dog catcher was issued a service weapon, what did the dogs and cats, raccoons do when they heard you say “ stop or I’ll shoot “ the second time?
Never mind you were a MOS 31B/31A , and guardian of the B units ( peaches, pairs, fruit cocktail) in the DFAC/goulash cannon ?

 

[John Wasmuth]

You gonna ignore the ICE shootings, war crimes using potentially lethal toxic gas on legal citizens,, children kidnapped and robbed of belongings by ICE just for ICE to immediately sell them for cash, kidnapped very young children from their parents for hours at a time, all of the Trump actions that are nearly identical to king George’s reasons for our Declaration of Independence, the parallels of the US between right now and the colonists, and all of my other points? Or are you just gonna find one point you think you might be able to argue and ignore the rest so you can tell yourself you’re winning the argument?

I said in my comment that LEO are held accountable and have a court hearing. But where was the court hearing for the shooter of whatever that lady was named in Minneapolis? Because Vance claims that ICE agents have absolute immunity in direct response to that shooting. That will be proven false in any reasonable court, but if it makes its way to the Supreme Court there’s no way trump’s judges will rule against him. Historically they haven’t, and even came up with presidential immunity on a surprise ruling with absolutely no constitutional backing to make sure he can’t go to jail no matter what crime he commits.

Maybe you should read some of the original texts of the Declaration of Independence, the constitution, read a bit of history on pre revolutionary war America and pre WWII Germany. Because the 3 have a lot in common right now.

And before you go and assume, I’m not a liberal or a democrat. I just don’t side with having massive government that controls every minute aspect of everyday life. Trump’s incorporation of Palantir should terrify you. ICE is using palantir to know the absolute location of pretty much every person in America, down to an accuracy of a few feet, and uses meta data to guess the race of the individual, their politics, if enough is public they know their name, social security number (thanks to Elon’s massive data leak recently from the stolen Social Security database) and more.

Those who refuse to learn history are doomed to repeat it.

Ok I think I’m done with this conversation. You have a good night.

 

[Betterinthebush]

They weren't that close at all. Not sure how you made such an inferrance. There's always at least two MPs so not like I'm facing off with an armed bigerant on my own. I'm agile enough and a pretty big boy back then. Not terribly worried about some guy who's drunk sticking a knife in me before I can get a gun on him. Truth be told, I'm not sure I would have shot either one if they'd refused to drop their knives. They just weren't that much of a threat. But I made them believe I would do it and that's what counts. We didn't have mace then. Army just started issuing it before I was discharged.

An attempted assault against the sentries is an assault against the colors. You were woefully trained.

 

[Rifleman97]

I have lost the argument and I give up.

Fixed that for you, message me when you have some actual facts to dispute what I’ve said. All of it, not ignoring points.

The double standards of partisan politics. Neither republicans nor democrats are immune, but the republicans are far worse right now. I’d love to identify as a Republican due to my alignment with many Republican values, but until the hypocrisy and pro totalitarian government shit is gone I will remain an independent.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Fair point. He did somewhat miss the possibility that we would continue to figure out how to robustly pursue politics by other means in the nuclear age.

Spoke with him at some length around 87 (while he would have been writing "Mask of Command). It would have been interesting to have had the same conversation even in say 92 following Desert Storm or following his research leading to "The Iraq War" where he was very critical of Rumsfeld's centralized control of the battlefield from the Pentagon. But, "Face of Battle" is a brilliant treatise.

Agreed. The real issue (and we've seen this many times) is someone does something really well, and is then considered an expert. It is then assumed "this guy knows what he's talking about..." (previous performance) ergo, this more recent statement must be true (future performance). With that comes a lack of critical thinking. We stop questioning and instead dangerously use an appeal to authority fallacy.

VADM Stockdale addressed the issues of Mask of Command at length (NWC connection). If one cannot find a copy of Foundations of Moral Obligation, I highly recommend finding Thoughts of a Philosophical Fighter Pilot. While the latter tends to repeat itself, that's not really a fault: It is an anthology, a collection of essays and speeches, and it's not surprising a public speaker would continue to address similar themes.

Foundations of Moral Obligation

In these times of ethical uncertainty, especially among senior Navy leaders amid the ongoing “Fat Leonard” fiasco, we need to look to our roots. The Foundations of Moral Obligation elective, otherwise known as “The Stockdale Course,” has been a mainstay at the Naval War College (NWC) for most of...

digital-commons.usnwc.edu

Foundations of Moral Obligation: Brennan, Joseph: 9780891415282: Amazon.com: Books

Foundations of Moral Obligation [Brennan, Joseph] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Foundations of Moral Obligation

www.amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/Thoughts-Philosophical-Fighter-Pilot-Reprint/dp/0817993924/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1GN9ILOXIGXLC&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.0orb9KQJXKb1uG2TxERR2qRUiOePJyM2-adgTa8ndJPMc_bERyk8JSgvQAJtcidC_PONgLmrxd_ZoVqHJ1TbOB80lK9X6aBykrYrEfB2st4.S-Wu_ht4Qy6cCqC5N9w1ehE6fXTBClYNC10dSzq2lrM&dib_tag=se&keywords=thoughts+of+a+philosophical+fighter+pilot&qid=1769298014&sprefix=thoughts+of+a+philo%2Caps%2C232&sr=8-1

Ah, here is the bit in Chapter 16:

Keegan concentrated the book on the last imperative, calling it heroism. After an enlightening and thorough review of exactly how Alexander the Great, the duke of Wellington, U.S. Grant, and others handled themselves in battle—in what patterns they rode or paced during the heavy fighting, how close they approached the opposing lines, what personal mannerisms seemed natural to them as they showed their mettle, dodging bullets or spears while keeping track of the state of play at the same time—he tacked on a chapter at the end about modern times. There, in so many words, he told us that as of right 1987, example as he dubbed it, had to go, that in the high-tech world it had no meaning, that computers and their ilk replace human motivation in modern warfare, that the spirited and the phlegmatic stand as one in their presence, and, furthermore, that those given to “theatrics” (which he equated to heroism) were dangerous.


John Keegan is no flake, but his last chapter was so inconsistent with his great buildup before it, and so inconsistent with the late-twentieth-century warfare I have been involved in, that I had to believe that some fear of Armageddon was polluting his judgment. He seemed to be using any excuse to put down that old bugaboo of the dangerous influence of individual personality on history. Moreover, he seemed to be trying to convince the reader that there is safety in leadership by committee and that natural forces are now dictating the shaping of our lives around a harmonious antheap of universal mediocrity. (I, of course, in disagreement, share the view of Harry Truman: “Men make history, and not the other way around.”)


I stuck it to Keegan on those grounds in the Wall Street Journal review I had been commissioned to do. About a month later, I got a nice letter from John from England, and he almost seemed to agree with me. He sort of expected it from me, he said.


My experience as a squadron and wing commander in Vietnam showed me that in combat, high-performance, high-technology fighter airplanes are illuminating the difference between the courageous and the timid, not fuzzing it up. As the air war matured, as North Vietnam’s air defenses became more sophisticated, human motivation became important in the wild blue yonder. High-tech gear does not have the effect of lumping every combatant into the same amorphous mass of emotion-free anonymity. The truth as I saw it, now reinforced by many new books written by experienced airborne commanders who regularly took strike groups into what we called Package 6, the Hanoi/Haiphong complex, was that failures of pilot nerve matched the record-breaking numbers of high-caliber flak guns and enemy fighters, to say nothing of the surface-to-air missiles they faced. Higher-tech airplanes facing ever-higher-tech opposition tend to increasingly polarize the warrior mass, with the heavy end of the fighting load being taken over by proportionately fewer and fewer of the best.

 

[steve white]

Remember being at the sci show after he was arrested or imprisoned....lot of talking/ stories about it at the time....he was quite well known at the show....and how he survived I don't know....

Thank you for posting this. I remember back when he got arrested, but did'nt know the rest of the story. I am sorry for his injustice and joyful for his spiritual freedom.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

An attempted assault against the sentries is an assault against the colors. You were woefully trained.

Fortunately, training in Sunday school prevailed over military indoctrination. When I was in basic I tested out qualified for West Point prep school. Of course I accepted but after three weeks of basic I realized military career was not for me. I did my three years honorably and went home.

I could give a shit about saving "the colors". I don't live in Roman times. More concerned about saving lives, my own being at the bottom of the list.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Fixed that for you, message me when you have some actual facts to dispute what I’ve said. All of it, not ignoring points.

View attachment 741354
The double standards of partisan politics. Neither republicans nor democrats are immune, but the republicans are far worse right now. I’d love to identify as a Republican due to my alignment with many Republican values, but until the hypocrisy and pro totalitarian government shit is gone I will remain an independent.

That's somewhat misleading. He did not show up to protest or in the role of a protester - he was there, as I recall, to assist with the protection of private property. The way it's worded it makes it sound like he was an armed protester... which he wasn't.

 

[Betterinthebush]

Fortunately, training in Sunday school prevailed over military indoctrination. When I was in basic I tested out qualified for West Point prep school. Of course I accepted but after three weeks of basic I realized military career was not for me. I did my three years honorably and went home.

I could give a shit about saving "the colors". I don't live in Roman times. More concerned about saving lives, my own being at the bottom of the list.

Well, see, there’s another difference between us. The colors represent my country. And no assault on a sentry can be tolerated.

 

[Tanks]

I'm sure I could clear a jammed 1911 faster than I could recock the hammer or fiddle with side safety.

So, you could remove the magazine, clear the jam and then reinsert the magazine and rack a round (assuming the problem wasn't the magazine) before anyone gets to you?

We all know you are a master of arms of all weapons, but this seems like a stretch.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Fixed that for you, message me when you have some actual facts to dispute what I’ve said. All of it, not ignoring points.

View attachment 741354
The double standards of partisan politics. Neither republicans nor democrats are immune, but the republicans are far worse right now. I’d love to identify as a Republican due to my alignment with many Republican values, but until the hypocrisy and pro totalitarian government shit is gone I will remain an independent.

You obviously have some difficulty that you need help with and if you insist upon having the last word then by all means you have it. I would try and explain to you the workings of grand juries and how they work in regards to the subject at hand and how slow the wheels of justice work but I highly doubt you’d grasp the concept. Have a nice night.