Politics

From a Fox news channel in Minnesota....

Very clear in that video and the dialog that the victim was disarmed before being shot. Pathetic how the Fox gal tries to make excuses, fear factor etc. Clearly she didn't expect the interview to go that way. Fox will be hearing from Trump tomorrow.

Anyone looking at the video has gotta be shocked at the lack of professionalism of those ICE goons. They acted like a gang of thugs, not law enforcement. And they looked the part too. Where did they get that menagerie of gear and clothing?

Heads are gonna roll for this one. Trump should just pull ICE out of Minneapolis and refocus elsewhere. Maybe Texas, Montana, Utah, all those good old boy Republican states. Those Trumplodites won't mind being invaded by his amateur army of immigrant hunters.
 
If you carry concealed, you're supposed to be the most responsible person on the planet. They focus on avoiding conflict in the classes I've attended.

A pretty good rule to follow, especially when carrying, might be don't harass or get in fights with the police (feds or otherwise).

Maybe they need to teach that in the CCW classes. "Don’t get in a scrum with the po-po when armed, Johnny." Cops tend to react, sometimes with deadly force, when someone yells "Gun Gun Gun".

None of this would be happening if the governor and mayor weren't calling for it, btw. They are as responsible, or irresponsible, as anyone - including the federal officers involved and the poor dead guy.
 
Generally, the weapon remained holstered when dealing with non-compliant individuals who wanted to get physical. Then the night stick was unholstered. The handgun was unholstered ONLY when a weapon was in play and only discharged as last resort. And only after the obligatory verbal warning TWICE "Stop or I'll shoot." Those were the official rules of engagement. Fortunately, I never had to test them. Three times I fired my 45 in three years. None of the situations applied to the rules ... not really. Once I did lock and load and issue the verbal warning but I chose not to shoot. Would have been a good shoot and perp escaped. I could tell you why I didn't shoot but no one would believe me. Divine intervention I think.

I'm sure I could clear a jammed 1911 faster than I could recock the hammer or fiddle with side safety.
Anybody, that carries a 1911 in condition 3 (empty chamber), in any situation where that firearm might be needed, is a fool. By design, the 1911 should be in condition 1, typically referred to as "cocked and locked"; round chambered. safety on. If you consider it "fiddling" to correctly use the thumb safety on a 1911, you don't actually know how to use a 1911. It has one of the most ergonomic safeties ever installed on a handgun.
If someone holding a knife is 20' or less from the person with a holstered weapon (and that weapon is actually ready to fire), the person with the holstered weapon is going to get stabbed before he can draw and fire. Just reality. Many times proven. Add the need to rack the slide and the distance available to the one with a knife probably extends to 30' or more.
Based on your statements, I am confident that you could clear a jam faster than you could re-cock the hammer or fiddle with the safety, as it sounds like any of these actions would require you to find a reference guide with pictures. You really should just use the smiling dog/frowning dog pictures that were recommended earlier; no words, just pictures....
 
Bit of back peddling..but doesn't mention any other military apart from UK......

And no real apologies either, just some sort of damage control attempt. I guess its more like someone told him that his statements on the matter was polling bad then a genuin will of apologizing;)
 
Bit of back peddling..but doesn't mention any other military apart from UK......
It must be that either he or his junior (safari hunter) reads this forum, and noticed red legs comments on the subject. ;)
 
Slightly longer read than most items on the BBC app but interesting

 
@Altitude sickness I’ll admit I have not studied this shooting very closely. I have a question about the first photo you posted. The guy pushing the woman does not appear to be the guy who got shot, that guy is the next guy to the right in the photo. I read a report that said an officer was pushing a demonstrator back and the guy that got shot attempted to help the demonstrator (interfering with a LEO).

I think you are correct.
 
It must be that either he or his junior (safari hunter) reads this forum, and noticed red legs comments on the subject. ;)

It’s more likely than not that Don Jr checks in here occasionally. He is very active on Social Media. Operates Field Ethos magazine. Partnered with Rigby for an African purposed rifle. Is very active on pod casts. And will attend SCI again. Yeah, I’d say he has pseudonym or pen name for AH.
 
That was my educated guess, too.
;)
 
Watching the videos of the male nurse protestor getting shot by a US Border Patrol Agent in Minneapolis, I honestly cannot see enough to gain knowledge of exactly happened. That stated, let’s review what not to do with any law enforcement officer (LEO),
  • If stopped by LEO, be polite with, “Yes sir, no sir, how do you want me to proceed (in retrieving an item from glove box and so on…)”.
  • When asked if I have any weapons, “Sir, I have my Concealed Pistol License (CPL) in my left hand and a pistol on my right hip.”
LEOs want to live just as most do. They do not know me from Adam so they will justifiably be concerned if I am armed. If I do NOT admit that I am armed when asked and later they discover I am, wouldn’t it be logical for any person, especially a trained LEO to be very concerned with their safety? I think so.

If attending a protest with intent to obstruct LEO actions, DO NOT carry a weapon. Why you may wonder? Because obstructing any LEO action has a many times higher probability of being at least detained by LEO than that of anyone who is NOT obstructing LEO actions. If when a LEO orders one to stand down, get back, or otherwise quit obstructing LEO actions, one disobeys the lawful LEO command, one can reasonably expect to be detained. The detention will for the safety of the LEOs and all in the area include a search for weapons.

If a protestor resists LEOs as the late nurse did, and is subdued by LEOs, and a handgun is discovered, a LEO will shout “GUN” to alert the other LEOs. Those LEOs involved in restraining the uncooperative protestor will already have their adrenalin flowing. This is a natural human physiological reaction to danger. Everyone reading this knows what adrenalin does to them.

Now, imagine you are a LEO trying to restrain an armed protestor and it is true as reported that the protestor was reaching or at least looked like they were reaching for their handgun, any LEO would be justified by law to shoot. Yes, maybe the LEO who shot the protestor fired too quickly, maybe. You or I were not in that scuffle so how would we know?

As a non-LEO it seems that LEOs shoot to quickly and too many rounds. But I am not nor have ever I been a LEO. LEOs do not know if this person or that person has a weapon and will try to kill them. Like us, LEOs want to live and have a natural survival instinct.

As to how many shots LEOs fire, during the time for challenging with adrenalin flowing, one’s marksmanship will likely not will any trophies. Further, how good of marksmen is the average LEO?

As good citizens we should have enough common sense not to physically challenge armed LEOs. That is unless we want to become martyrs for a cause? Did the late protestor intend suicide by cop (SBC) or martyrdom? I do not think we will ever know.

What was the cause of this unnecessary death?
  • Was if a bad situation caused by the uncooperative protestor?
  • Was it the late protestor wanting to die for the cause?
  • Was the cause of this tragedy the Minnesota politicians making public statements clearly intending that the citizens film, protest, and obstruct Federal LEOs from doing their duty?
  • Was the cause the Biden era open borders?
  • Should Federal, State, or Local government(s) remove illegal aliens who have other criminal convictions to their countries of origin?
  • Would the late protestor have been shot if Minnesota would allow the Federal Government to take custody of those criminally convicted illegal aliens when released from local or state custody?
It is unfortunate the person died. It is also unfortunate a LEO had to take a life.

Rules to live by,
  • If detained my LEOs, cooperate.
  • Advise LEOs you are armed.
  • Avoid conflicts when armed.
  • If you think you need to be armed to go there, you probably should not go there.
  • If undocumented or otherwise illegal in a foreign country, do not commit other crimes. If you or I were in Mexico or say, an African country legally or illegally, and committed a crime, we would be in prison for a long time. If we resisted a foreign LEO, we would be dead.
From this unverified post,
"Country's top expert in the law of self defense weighs in. The firearm matters—and the media is hiding it. At the Minneapolis Border Patrol shooting, the suspect was armed with a SIG Sauer P320 AXG Combat, a high-capacity 9mm pistol with a threaded barrel, extended 20–21 round magazine, and a SIG Romeo optic—a setup costing $1,500–$2,000. This was not a cheap carry gun.

Officers were in a physical struggle with an armed suspect when a gun was perceived and the word “gun” was shouted. Under settled self-defense law, officers are entitled to rely on fellow officers’ reasonable perceptions. They do not have to personally confirm the threat.

Once a firearm appears during active resistance, the legal standard is simple: reasonable perception of imminent deadly force. That standard was met here. Freeze-frame activism doesn’t override real-time dynamics, and the law does not require officers to wait to be shot. This was a tragic—but lawful—use of force."
 
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Watching the videos of the male nurse protestor getting shot by a US Border Patrol Agent in Minneapolis, I honestly cannot see enough to gain knowledge of exactly happened. That stated, let’s review what not to do with any law enforcement officer (LEO),
  • If stopped by LEO, be polite with, “Yes sir, no sir, how do you want me to proceed (in retrieving an item from glove box and so on…)”.
  • When asked if I have any weapons, “Sir, I have my Concealed Pistol License (CPL) in my left hand and a pistol on my right hip.”
LEOs want to live just as most do. They do not know me from Adam so they will justifiably be concerned if I am armed. If I do NOT admit that I am armed when asked and later they discover I am, wouldn’t it be logical for any person, especially a trained LEO to be very concerned with their safety? I think so.

If attending a protest with intent to obstruct LEO actions, DO NOT carry a weapon. Why you may wonder? Because obstructing any LEO action has a many times higher probability of being at least detained by LEO than that of anyone who is NOT obstructing LEO actions. If when a LEO orders one to stand down, get back, or otherwise quit obstructing LEO actions, one disobeys the lawful LEO command, one can reasonably expect to be detained. The detention will for the safety of the LEOs and all in the area include a search for weapons.

If a protestor resists LEOs as the late nurse did, and is subdued by LEOs, and a handgun is discovered, a LEO will shout “GUN” to alert the other LEOs. Those LEOs involved in restraining the uncooperative protestor will already have their adrenalin flowing. This is a natural human physiological reaction to danger. Everyone reading this knows what adrenalin does to them.

Now, imagine you are a LEO trying to restrain an armed protestor and it is true as reported that the protestor was reaching or at least looked like they were reaching for their handgun, any LEO would be justified by law to shoot. Yes, maybe the LEO who shot the protestor fired too quickly, maybe. You or I were not in that scuffle so how would we know?

As a non-LEO it seems that LEOs shoot to quickly and too many rounds. But I am not nor have ever I been a LEO. LEOs do not know if this person or that person has a weapon and will try to kill them. Like us, LEOs want to live and have a natural survival instinct.

As to how many shots LEOs fire, during the time for challenging with adrenalin flowing, one’s marksmanship will likely not will any trophies. Further, how good of marksmen is the average LEO?

As good citizens we should have enough common sense not to physically challenge armed LEOs. That is unless we want to become martyrs for a cause? Did the late protestor intend suicide by cop (SBC) or martyrdom? I do not think we will ever know.

What was the cause of this unnecessary death?
  • Was if a bad situation caused by the uncooperative protestor?
  • Was it the late protestor wanting to die for the cause?
  • Was the cause of this tragedy the Minnesota politicians making public statements clearly intending that the citizens film, protest, and obstruct Federal LEOs from doing their duty?
  • Was the cause the Biden era open borders?
  • Should Federal, State, or Local government(s) remove illegal aliens who have other criminal convictions to their countries of origin?
  • Would the late protestor have been shot if Minnesota would allow the Federal Government to take custody of those criminally convicted illegal aliens when released from local or state custody?
It is unfortunate the person died. It is also unfortunate a LEO had to take a life.

Rules to live by,
  • If detained my LEOs, cooperate.
  • Advise LEOs you are armed.
  • Avoid conflicts when armed.
  • If you think you need to be armed to go there, you probably should not go there.
  • If undocumented or otherwise illegal in a foreign country, do not commit other crimes. If you or I were in Mexico or say, an African country legally or illegally, and committed a crime, we would be in prison for a long time. If we resisted a foreign LEO, we would be dead.
From this unverified post,
"Country's top expert in the law of self defense weighs in. The firearm matters—and the media is hiding it. At the Minneapolis Border Patrol shooting, the suspect was armed with a SIG Sauer P320 AXG Combat, a high-capacity 9mm pistol with a threaded barrel, extended 20–21 round magazine, and a SIG Romeo optic—a setup costing $1,500–$2,000. This was not a cheap carry gun.

Officers were in a physical struggle with an armed suspect when a gun was perceived and the word “gun” was shouted. Under settled self-defense law, officers are entitled to rely on fellow officers’ reasonable perceptions. They do not have to personally confirm the threat.

Once a firearm appears during active resistance, the legal standard is simple: reasonable perception of imminent deadly force. That standard was met here. Freeze-frame activism doesn’t override real-time dynamics, and the law does not require officers to wait to be shot. This was a tragic—but lawful—use of force."
Chris rock covered this 20 years ago lol. Still funny

 
Isn’t the Sig 320 the model that has had issues with un-commanded discharges. Different from unintentional discharges. Or Accidental discharges.
 
Mark, I agree with your assessment completely.

I wish Trump, and ICE officials would stop making declarative statements minutes after a shooting. The responsible response would be to wait for more information. It weakens their footing immensely.

But as you stated. Why would a rational person inject themselves into the immediate proximity of an active arrest situation.

Would anybody think it’s normal to see a traffic stop on the side of the road and to stop your car and get in the face of that cop and not expect consequences. Or worse drive around looking for a traffic stop to start your martyrdom.

New video appears to show the nurse was disarmed just before the shooting started. Was the pistol completely clear of the scrum when shooting started ?

Did the cop have an AD prompting others to shoot?

This is why officials should know better than to make declarative statements too early.
 
One of the common refrains of the uninformed chattering class is that ICE activity is not taking place in Red states. Currently, Texas is detaining an average of 176 illegals a day, or over 1200 a week. That is being accomplished with a minimum of public notice, much less outcry. Minnesota has seen the detention of approximately 3,000 since the start of operation Metro Surge some six-weeks ago with the attendant violence against and impediment of law enforcement. The difference between the two is pretty simple. In Texas, state and local government and law enforcement agencies cooperate fully with federal counterparts. In Minnesota, Waltz and the mayor of Minneapolis are leaders of the resistance. I do not know what the investigation of this shooting will disclose, but if anyone has blood on their hands, it is these two.
 
maybe you should worry about the women and children that were raped by illegals on the way to America. maybe you should worry about the children 300,000 of them that disappeared once they got in the country during the biden/mayorkas reign. maybe we should all worry about the sanctuary cities that protect illegal aliens (the ones in the prisons that those cities do not allow to come in and safely retrieve)

you wanna protest, peacefully, no problem. you want to block traffic, spit on, push, shove law enforcement (of any flavor) better find a nice clean spot on the ground to end up on!

would you personally allow individuals that act like these "peaceful" protesters to act out on your wife, daughter or grandkids? not me.
Whether you have been radicalized into believing that most immigrants are like that or not, (the statistics show most of them are not like that and have lower rates of crime than US citizens https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/fact-sheet/debunking-myth-immigrants-and-crime/ ) the constitution says they get a fair trial, not be beaten to near death in the streets with no proof of committing any crimes. Especially all the ones that were arrested for simply being brown even when they had proof of citizenship on their person and were not even given a chance to prove it.

I’m sure plenty of Jews committed crimes in pre WWII Germany, it didn’t make the holocaust a morally justified act.
 

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I know it was five or so years ago, and my memory is not what it once was, but wasn't he armed at a protest because there were no police present, and he was trying to protect property? Isn't that different from being armed at a protest of police?

I'm not "for" any of these shootings, but I can't see a way around the fact that there is a protest of an enforcement activity for a real law, not a protest asking for the repeal of a law. It's "we don't think that law should be valid here", which in my world is a violation of the supremacy clause. So the people saying the enforcement activity is unconstitutional are also themselves in violation of the Constitution.

Oh, and I've also read that the deceased had no identification on him at the time. Also, Minnesota is not a "Constitutional Carry" state. It has not been reported if he had a license to carry, but if he had no ID, then said license was not with him at the time. That's not a justification for being shot, but also unlike Mr. Rittenhouse, that's not "legally carrying".
You are correct except for the fact that Kyle rittenhouse was breaking the law as well. He was in Illinois which explicitly bans open carry of any kind, which he was doing. As far as I saw the Minnesota guy was fully legal except for not having his concealed carry license on him (which he did have, just not on his person) whereas Kyle wasn’t even old enough to get a concealed carry permit, didn’t have one, and was open carrying in a state where open carry is illegal, and was 17 years old, meaning he couldn’t even legally own a gun in Illinois.

I’m also not for any of these shootings and the protestors in Minneapolis are getting insane, but I think ICE is also insane for gassing civilians in areas near children’s parks and homes where people not even protesting could potentially die from the gas, plus it’s a literal war crime to even use on military combatants.
 
One of the common refrains of the uninformed chattering class is that ICE activity is not taking place in Red states. Currently, Texas is detaining an average of 176 illegals a day, or over 1200 a week. That is being accomplished with a minimum of public notice, much less outcry. Minnesota has seen the detention of approximately 3,000 since the start of operation Metro Surge some six-weeks ago with the attendant violence against and impediment of law enforcement. The difference between the two is pretty simple. In Texas, state and local government and law enforcement agencies cooperate fully with federal counterparts. In Minnesota, Waltz and the mayor of Minneapolis are leaders of the resistance. I do not know what the investigation of this shooting will disclose, but if anyone has blood on their hands, it is these two.
What a breath of fresh air and reasoned argument

You keep me returning to this forum

J
 

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