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Longwalker

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The USA has labelled both Canada and the EU as threats to their "National Security" in order to justify new duties declared by their military Commander-in-Chief on the international trade of steel and aluminum. So I suggest that USA made products such as firearms and ammunition should be sold exclusively within the USA so Canada and Europe can help our esteemed neighbour defend themselves and improve their national security. Sadly, I have come to the conclusion that Canadians and Europeans should make do with their own products exclusively. For all our AfricaHunting friends in Canada, Europe, Africa and elsewhere, please don't buy any American made products. Lets's support the USA in their concern. One can never be too careful when there are evil guys to deal with, and it is our duty to help, as always.
 
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Hogpatrol

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The so called tariffs are nothing more than a negotiating tool for a realistic NAFTA. The U.S. has been taking it up the rear-end trade wise since Nixon. Long passed time to fight back.
The irony of it is, the purchase of foreign goods just subsidizes socialist, welfare laden systems.
Buy a Mercedes? You're paying for a 37 hour work week for the highest paid industrial workers in the WORLD, health care, the defense of Germany and the rest of their socialist policies.
 

wesheltonj

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The USA has labelled both Canada and the EU as threats to their "National Security" in order to justify new duties declared by their military Commander-in-Chief on the international trade of steel and aluminum. So I suggest that USA made products such as firearms and ammunition should be sold exclusively within the USA so Canada and Europe can help our esteemed neighbour defend themselves and improve their national security. Sadly, I have come to the conclusion that Canadians and Europeans should make do with their own products exclusively. For all our AfricaHunting friends in Canada, Europe, Africa and elsewhere, please don't buy any American made products. Lets's support the USA in their concern. One can never be too careful when there are evil guys to deal with, and it is our duty to help, as always.

That should not be too hard for you to do, concerning how few consumer products are actually manufactured in the USA. Now USA brands that another story.

The key to this topic is actually not a gun company, it's Louis Vuitton.

There are 3 "luxury brand" companies out there that hold luxury goods from Purdey Guns and Panerei watches (same owner) that have a vision for their brands. The only way to save the really high quality guns is to have them in a portfolio that says "we won't lower our quality, nor our price, and we never target the average middle class customer". That's the only way to save the craftsmanship of gun making as we think of it.

Its actually, Richement and not LVMH . And Chanel owns Holland & Holland (at least thats what Wikipedia says).
 

Longwalker

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@Longwalker , you holding any Rugers that you're too embarrassed to own anymore? Perhaps I could set you free. :whistle:
Sorry, I got rid of my last Ruger a few months ago. The RSM .375 was a decent rifle but I replaced it with a Sako.
 

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Most people have no real understanding of the history of NAFTA, the president included. If they did, they’d take an entirely different approach.

Regarding tariffs, in the long run, should the course progress as it has, it’ll prove that America is not the big dog long thought (which should be obvious, when one considers the extent to which we rely upon the balance of the world in order to maintain our assumed position).

Regarding the quality of American firearms, the business model of every firm involved is markedly different from that of the esteemed English and Continental makers. This is entirely due to the history of each. In the Old World, the better gunmaking firms arose to meet the demand of aristocracy and landed gentry. Your average person could not afford them then, and your average person cannot afford them now. In America, every gunmaking firm arose to meet the demand of the common citizen. Wonderful, one-offs were on occasion produced, but they were definitely the exception rather than the rule. And the same has held true to the present day.

Regarding Ruger rifles, I have two and happen to quite like each...incredible value for the money, in particular the RSM!
 

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Most people have no real understanding of the history of NAFTA, the president included. If they did, they’d take an entirely different approach.

Regarding tariffs, in the long run, should the course progress as it has, it’ll prove that America is not the big dog long thought (which should be obvious, when one considers the extent to which we rely upon the balance of the world in order to maintain our assumed position).

Regarding the quality of American firearms, the business model of every firm involved is markedly different from that of the esteemed English and Continental makers. This is entirely due to the history of each. In the Old World, the better gunmaking firms arose to meet the demand of aristocracy and landed gentry. Your average person could not afford them then, and your average person cannot afford them now. In America, every gunmaking firm arose to meet the demand of the common citizen. Wonderful, one-offs were on occasion produced, but they were definitely the exception rather than the rule. And the same has held true to the present day.

Regarding Ruger rifles, I have two and happen to quite like each...incredible value for the money, in particular the RSM!

Except for the tarriffs thing, I pretty much agree with you. The current imbalances are largely a result of a then logical US decision to underwrite the Western European and Japanese (later South Korean) economic recoveries at the end of the war to help slow the pace of communist expansionism. We are still the largest high-end market, and using that as a little leverage to break down those residual trade props seems long overdue; assuming we truly do want to participate in a truly "free trade" market. I personally think we could still excel there.

The exception to American gun production for the common man are our custom rifle makers. They are essentially building "bespoke" firearms for the same class as the clientele for a London Best or Hartman and Weiss. I would also argue that their quality is every bit as exceptional. The American Guild is much more like Europe between the wars where individual artisans produced wonderful firearms than the current European gunmaking model.
 

CTDolan

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You're absolutely correct regarding the American custom market. In this it is like a system of outworkers (many custom-made firearms the result of many hands...one to do the metalwork, another the wood, and yet another the engraving, etc.). Many English guns were made in such a manner, and still are (I know several guys who do work for the big name makers such as Purdey, Holland & Holland, and so on, in the privacy of their own workshop).
 

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A good read on postwar economies is The Reckoning by David Halberstam. Making long story short, after WW2, the world's manufacturing was in ruins. We had it all to ourselves. In order to rebuild our enemies economies we paid for almost 100% of their defense needs and our best and brightest worked in those industries. Meanwhile, Japan, Germany and others who we defended after the war employed their best and brightest in consumer goods like autos, electronics and other manufactured goods. It's still the same today. (I worked with some engineers for a Big 3 that couldn't find their asses with both hands).

Having said that, these countries are back on their feet and still offloading their defense costs on the U.S. taxpayer and at the same time sticking it up OUR ass with TARIFFS on just about every manufactured goods TO PROTECT THEIR INDUSTRIES! Meanwhile, they have BETTER health care (among high income nations, we have the worst!) and that nice imported Mercedes, Volvo, BMW, Honda, Acura, ad nauseum we buy is subsidizing these countries defense, health care and other social "benefits".

Don't even start on NAFTA, the biggest scam ever perpetrated on the American worker. Read the Heritage's Foundation paper on it's "benefits" before it passed. They were reduced illegal immigration, a reduction in drug smuggling and a crimp on American workers' salaries and unions. They got one right and here we are with a big deficit and no tax base to support it.

I'm done.
 

wesheltonj

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Except for the tarriffs thing, I pretty much agree with you. The current imbalances are largely a result of a then logical US decision to underwrite the Western European and Japanese (later South Korean) economic recoveries at the end of the war to help slow the pace of communist expansionism. We are still the largest high-end market, and using that as a little leverage to break down those residual trade props seems long overdue; assuming we truly do want to participate in a truly "free trade" market. I personally think we could still excel there.

The exception to American gun production for the common man are our custom rifle makers. They are essentially building "bespoke" firearms for the same class as the clientele for a London Best or Hartman and Weiss. I would also argue that their quality is every bit as exceptional. The American Guild is much more like Europe between the wars where individual artisans produced wonderful firearms than the current European gunmaking model.

Well I somewhat agree. It was my understand we required Germany & Japan to have only a token military and would provide for their defense, so we would not have to fight the Germans a third time and the Japanese a second time. And the Marshall plan to "rebuild" Europe was to keep from what happened to Germany after WW1 occurring again. I agree and it appears that so does Trump that its time for Europe to pay their 2% of GDP for the common defense. Perhaps it time for them to pay even more or lift the restrictions on the size of their military and let them pay the true cost of their defense.

These one off USA gun makers really don't complete in the same market as H&H or Purdy. H&H & Purdy are carriage trade items, one offs are not.
 

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Well I somewhat agree. It was my understand we required Germany & Japan to have only a token military and would provide for their defense, so we would not have to fight the Germans a third time and the Japanese a second time. And the Marshall plan to "rebuild" Europe was to keep from what happened to Germany after WW1 occurring again. I agree and it appears that so does Trump that its time for Europe to pay their 2% of GDP for the common defense. Perhaps it time for them to pay even more or lift the restrictions on the size of their military and let them pay the true cost of their defense.

These one off USA gun makers really don't complete in the same market as H&H or Purdy. H&H & Purdy are carriage trade items, one offs are not.
I never said it was about defense expenditures. NATO provided collective security under our leadership which were quite happy to underwrite. The real issue is that we allowed protective taxes and tariffs on our products in order to make struggling Europe, Japan, and Korea more competitive after the war. That imbalance became institutionalized, and should have been addressed 25 years ago. Europe (already started) and Canada will blink on this very soon. They can't out compete us - particularly when industry is investing again. The far more complex competitor is China.

I kind of disagree Your Honor. I think the people willing to pay for a Todd Ramirez rifle, or absolutely of the carriage trade clientele. They simply choose to buy Todd rather than a bespoke Rigby.
 

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The USA has labelled both Canada and the EU as threats to their "National Security" in order to justify new duties declared by their military Commander-in-Chief on the international trade of steel and aluminum. So I suggest that USA made products such as firearms and ammunition should be sold exclusively within the USA so Canada and Europe can help our esteemed neighbour defend themselves and improve their national security. Sadly, I have come to the conclusion that Canadians and Europeans should make do with their own products exclusively. For all our AfricaHunting friends in Canada, Europe, Africa and elsewhere, please don't buy any American made products. Lets's support the USA in their concern. One can never be too careful when there are evil guys to deal with, and it is our duty to help, as always.

FALSE: The US did not label Canada and the EU a "National Security threat" Get your facts straight. The reference was to the US "excessive" dependence on imports from Canada/EU.

Yes please boycott the US, but first please pay us back the Billion in Defense Welfare you have taken since the end of WW II
 

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Whenever you try and take people OFF of welfare, they scream bloody murder. That's what Trump is trying to do, only it's with countries not individuals. Let there be no mistake. Trump said remove ALL tariffs with all countries and open the world to free trade. What was the G7's response? "Uh, well, er', uh, ahem......uh, gee no, we can't do that".
 

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The USA has labelled both Canada and the EU as threats to their "National Security" in order to justify new duties declared by their military Commander-in-Chief on the international trade of steel and aluminum. So I suggest that USA made products such as firearms and ammunition should be sold exclusively within the USA so Canada and Europe can help our esteemed neighbour defend themselves and improve their national security. Sadly, I have come to the conclusion that Canadians and Europeans should make do with their own products exclusively. For all our AfricaHunting friends in Canada, Europe, Africa and elsewhere, please don't buy any American made products. Lets's support the USA in their concern. One can never be too careful when there are evil guys to deal with, and it is our duty to help, as always.
That is an uninformed statement. I'll tell you a little secret. Both the EU and Canada will cave on the tariff dispute. They can't even afford to wait for a potentially hopeful (for them) outcome in November. They need the US market far more than the US needs them - in large part because of the protective tariff systems they have had in place since WWII. Meanwhile, the US was forced to find alternative markets. And here's another little secret - Canada is no more self-sufficient than Minnesota.

And there is some truth to the defense spending argument. Canada largely has done away with her military to free up discretionary money for social welfare spending. You can look up the decline in defense outlay dollars yourself. They have no real Navy (it has zero resupply capability), no meaningful Air Force, and the ground forces aren't even a shadow of what they were in the nineties much less the seventies when the Canadian armored brigade was the best in Europe. They have been able to do this because of the defense umbrella afforded by ……… that's right - their irritating neighbor to the south.
 
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wesheltonj

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I never said it was about defense expenditures. NATO provided collective security under our leadership which were quite happy to underwrite. The real issue is that we allowed protective taxes and tariffs on our products in order to make struggling Europe, Japan, and Korea more competitive after the war. That imbalance became institutionalized, and should have been addressed 25 years ago. Europe (already started) and Canada will blink on this very soon. They can't out compete us - particularly when industry is investing again. The far more complex competitor is China.

I kind of disagree Your Honor. I think the people willing to pay for a Todd Ramirez rifle, or absolutely of the carriage trade clientele. They simply choose to buy Todd rather than a bespoke Rigby.

As expensive as a bespoke Rigby is, I would have not placed it as a carriage trade item, like Purdy or H&H. But, I would not consider Mercedes-Benz a carriage trade item either.

I agree with you on China. I was last in Guangzhou in 1989, it was just where the train from Hong Kong ended and how you entered Chain form Hong Kong. 2 weeks ago I had a all day layover, I did not recognize anything. It is a modern city. China has learned capitalism while still being a centralized government. The USA is just lucky that the Dollar is still a reserve currency otherwise we would have real problems.
 

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As expensive as a bespoke Rigby is, I would have not placed it as a carriage trade item, like Purdy or H&H. But, I would not consider Mercedes-Benz a carriage trade item either.

I agree with you on China. I was last in Guangzhou in 1989, it was just where the train from Hong Kong ended and how you entered Chain form Hong Kong. 2 weeks ago I had a all day layover, I did not recognize anything. It is a modern city. China has learned capitalism while still being a centralized government. The USA is just lucky that the Dollar is still a reserve currency otherwise we would have real problems.
I'm speaking apples to apples. A bespoke Purdey, Rigby, Westley Richards, or Todd Ramirez bolt action rifle are all in the same general cost range. With respect to SxS guns and rifles I completely concur.
 

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The USA has labelled both Canada and the EU as threats to their "National Security" in order to justify new duties declared by their military Commander-in-Chief on the international trade of steel and aluminum. So I suggest that USA made products such as firearms and ammunition should be sold exclusively within the USA so Canada and Europe can help our esteemed neighbour defend themselves and improve their national security. Sadly, I have come to the conclusion that Canadians and Europeans should make do with their own products exclusively. For all our AfricaHunting friends in Canada, Europe, Africa and elsewhere, please don't buy any American made products. Lets's support the USA in their concern. One can never be too careful when there are evil guys to deal with, and it is our duty to help, as always.


When NAFTA was established, theoretically there was free trade throughout North America. Most products made in Canada, Mexico and America were made in those respective countries. Over the past 25 years things have changed dramatically. Canada and Mexico decided to stop manufacturing products made entirely in their countries, and start substituting products made in other countries, primarily China and the western Pacific Rim. In many cases now, products are only assembled in Mexico and Canada.

Lets use China as an example. America has not been able to get free trade with China because China sends their manufactured products to Canada and Mexico, assemble it, and get free trade into America through the NAFTA Treaty. China then puts a tariff on American made goods. Over the years this has led to a growing imbalance of trade. In 2017, America imported $507 billion from China and only exported $130 billion to China. This deficit is virtually all due to NAFTA.

Trump has tried to work things out with Canada and Mexico for over a year. Neither Canada or Mexico wanted to make things work. That led to the situation that exists today. The only way Trump can get around the House and the Senate is to declare steel and aluminum as vital to national defense. Trump isn't looking to take advantage of either Canada or Mexico. Just have free trade between each country individually. Canada's problem is that they don't make many products anymore. They buy things from other countries and assemble them, thus Canada is going to have a problem adjusting.

Regarding the EU. @Red Leg covered this pretty well. America allowed Europe and Japan to have an advantageous trade balance after the war to help them rebuild. There is no need now to allow this imbalance to continue. Currently America imports $434 billion from the EU and export $283 billion. This is due to the EU having higher overall tariffs on products coming from America than America has on products coming from the EU. Trump wants free trade. Zero tariffs going each way. There is nothing sinister about this. Trump is not trying to get an advantage. Tusk, Junker and the other bureaucrats in the EU acted like no changes would be accepted, at least until Junker went to Washington this week with a change of heart.

All Trump is doing is keeping America from being taken advantage of. Since WWII by Europe and Japan, or since the mid 90's, by Canada and Mexico, due to NAFTA.

Canada has taken advantage of America since they started using foreign made products to export into America, changing NAFTA from it's original intent. This is all easily understandable with an hour or two of research. It is unfortunate that Freeland and Trudeau are inept. They are just making things much more difficult for the average Canadian. Hopefully Freeland and Trudeau will figure things out before things get to bad for our friends in the great white north.
 

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When NAFTA was established, theoretically there was free trade throughout North America. Most products made in Canada, Mexico and America were made in those respective countries. Over the past 25 years things have changed dramatically. Canada and Mexico decided to stop manufacturing products made entirely in their countries, and start substituting products made in other countries, primarily China and the western Pacific Rim. In many cases now, products are only assembled in Mexico and Canada.

Lets use China as an example. America has not been able to get free trade with China because China sends their manufactured products to Canada and Mexico, assemble it, and get free trade into America through the NAFTA Treaty. China then puts a tariff on American made goods. Over the years this has led to a growing imbalance of trade. In 2017, America imported $507 billion from China and only exported $130 billion to China. This deficit is virtually all due to NAFTA.

Trump has tried to work things out with Canada and Mexico for over a year. Neither Canada or Mexico wanted to make things work. That led to the situation that exists today. The only way Trump can get around the House and the Senate is to declare steel and aluminum as vital to national defense. Trump isn't looking to take advantage of either Canada or Mexico. Just have free trade between each country individually. Canada's problem is that they don't make many products anymore. They buy things from other countries and assemble them, thus Canada is going to have a problem adjusting.

Regarding the EU. @Red Leg covered this pretty well. America allowed Europe and Japan to have an advantageous trade balance after the war to help them rebuild. There is no need now to allow this imbalance to continue. Currently America imports $434 billion from the EU and export $283 billion. This is due to the EU having higher overall tariffs on products coming from America than America has on products coming from the EU. Trump wants free trade. Zero tariffs going each way. There is nothing sinister about this. Trump is not trying to get an advantage. Tusk, Junker and the other bureaucrats in the EU acted like no changes would be accepted, at least until Junker went to Washington this week with a change of heart.

All Trump is doing is keeping America from being taken advantage of. Since WWII by Europe and Japan, or since the mid 90's, by Canada and Mexico, due to NAFTA.

Canada has taken advantage of America since they started using foreign made products to export into America, changing NAFTA from it's original intent. This is all easily understandable with an hour or two of research. It is unfortunate that Freeland and Trudeau are inept. They are just making things much more difficult for the average Canadian. Hopefully Freeland and Trudeau will figure things out before things get to bad for our friends in the great white north.

Facts all conveniently not reported by the socialist, left leaning media. They can't stand Trump because Trump can't stand their lying asses and isn't afraid to call a spade a spade.
 

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The USA has labelled both Canada and the EU as threats to their "National Security" in order to justify new duties declared by their military Commander-in-Chief on the international trade of steel and aluminum. So I suggest that USA made products such as firearms and ammunition should be sold exclusively within the USA so Canada and Europe can help our esteemed neighbour defend themselves and improve their national security. Sadly, I have come to the conclusion that Canadians and Europeans should make do with their own products exclusively. For all our AfricaHunting friends in Canada, Europe, Africa and elsewhere, please don't buy any American made products. Lets's support the USA in their concern. One can never be too careful when there are evil guys to deal with, and it is our duty to help, as always.
Longwalker, Try, like me, an Aussie, to get a rifle out of the US . I bought a "special" Ruger No 1 from his eminence @sierraone over a year ago ... Seems we Aussies are no more popular with the current US administration than we were with the previous one ... Yup, @sierraone, still awaitin' ...
 
 

 

 

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