Elephant caliber

[zephyr]

Tanks said:


Well, my point is to have enough gun so one does not have to solely depend on the PH to have a shot at a charging animal. Some PHs I know will not let a client with a .375 take a frontal brain shot at big Botswana elephants.

As Tank says ... Be part of the Solution not part of the Problem

 

[JFdekoker]

I'm starting to put my mind towards wanting to complete my Big 5. With that in mind, I'm trying to decide on a caliber for an elephant. I currently have a Winchester M70 in .375 H&H for everything else. I originally was going to go with a .458 Win Mag but from what I've been reading/researching, there's mixed reviews on the Win Mag for elephant. So then I've been looking at the .458 Lott. I don't have the $15-75k+ for a double rifle (my plan is a non-trophy elephant and a green rhino hunt) and I want something that I can still buy commercial ammo for. Therefore, my two choices of the Win Mag and the Lott.

For those of you with actual elephant experience, is the Win Mag enough juice or do I need the Lott? Especially if SHTF and a charge occurs.

2 weeks ago a went with a friend to hunt an elephant in North eastern Botswana. he did not bring a rifle. we used a .375 H&H . The ammunition was 300gr Solid in Hornady. Our plan was the ever reliable side brain shot, HOWEVER, the situation that we were in had us having to take the frontal brain shot. We spoke about it for 2 days before the actual shot took place. The frontal brain shot was effective and the elephant went down immediately. A wonderful hunt.

 

[Flipper Dude]

That’s a beautiful piece of ivory right there.

 

[375Fox]

Tanks said:


Well, my point is to have enough gun so one does not have to solely depend on the PH to have a shot at a charging animal. Some PHs I know will not let a client with a .375 take a frontal brain shot at big Botswana elephants.

As Tank says ... Be part of the Solution not part of the Problem

The number of hunters thinking they need a double or large rifle for elephant is part of the problem too. If someone isn’t going to take the time to really get proficient with their rifle. A 375 is better solution. Many well accomplished elephant PHs are willing to recommend a 375 also and rent them out for elephant hunts. Interesting that part gets left out. A brain shot with a 458 or a 375 is still a dead elephant. Body shot the larger caliber has a significant advantage.

 

[Flipper Dude]

Just saying………​

(Excerpted)

I heard the following story from a Professional Hunter with years of experience in Zimbabwe and South Africa:​

“When a client shows up in camp with a .375 Holland & Holland, you immediately know that you have a practical and able chap as a customer, a wise and knowledgeable hunter who will listen to reason. When a client shows up in camp with a .458 Win Mag, you know that most likely the only experience the hunter has had is reading the pages of Outdoor Life magazine, probably 30-year-old editions. When a client shows up in camp with a Remington or a Weatherby in any caliber, you know the hunter’s experience probably does not extend past the clerk at the gun counter. When a client shows up with a double rifle, you know you have an elitist for a customer, much like the guy coming down the charter boat dock at the marina carrying a fly rod, and you approach him with caution. When a client shows up with a .416 Rigby, you know you have someone who has studied and respects the rich history and traditions of the sport of dangerous-game hunting. And when a client shows up in camp with a .404 Jeffery, you know this is someone who cares enough about said history and traditions to go to the immense trouble of building and loading a gun and cartridge long sacrificed to the gods of mass production and commercialism. You take a liking to this guy immediately.”

 

[Adam Stevens]

Appreciate reading all the opinions on the matter! Booking my next hunt and it'll be for a non trophy, maybe trophy bull. I would use my .375hh or .450no2 but can't bring guns to Zim, so will be using camp rifle. .375 or .416 will obviously be just fine.

I've always been a firm believer if you're only planning on 1 ele a scoped .375 is plenty and adequate for the job. I do like the idea of it should start with a .4 but that's personal thought only. I did ask and can rent a .500ne double. Which I may use.

The safari romantic in me dreams and has always dreamt of taking an elephant with a double. I would practice with my .450no2 leading up to the hunt. I know many who if planning on taking multiple elephant recommend a .500. But that's just anecdotal stories over the years.

 

[Adam Stevens]

Just saying………​

(Excerpted)

I heard the following story from a Professional Hunter with years of experience in Zimbabwe and South Africa:​

“When a client shows up in camp with a .375 Holland & Holland, you immediately know that you have a practical and able chap as a customer, a wise and knowledgeable hunter who will listen to reason. When a client shows up in camp with a .458 Win Mag, you know that most likely the only experience the hunter has had is reading the pages of Outdoor Life magazine, probably 30-year-old editions. When a client shows up in camp with a Remington or a Weatherby in any caliber, you know the hunter’s experience probably does not extend past the clerk at the gun counter. When a client shows up with a double rifle, you know you have an elitist for a customer, much like the guy coming down the charter boat dock at the marina carrying a fly rod, and you approach him with caution. When a client shows up with a .416 Rigby, you know you have someone who has studied and respects the rich history and traditions of the sport of dangerous-game hunting. And when a client shows up in camp with a .404 Jeffery, you know this is someone who cares enough about said history and traditions to go to the immense trouble of building and loading a gun and cartridge long sacrificed to the gods of mass production and commercialism. You take a liking to this guy immediately.”

That blogpost made me fall in love with the .404 I'd say almost 20 years ago now! One of the first "bookmarks" I made on the early Internet!

 

[375Fox]

And when a client shows up in camp with a .404 Jeffery, you know this is someone who cares enough about said history and traditions to go to the immense trouble of building and loading a gun and cartridge long sacrificed to the gods of mass production and commercialism. You take a liking to this guy immediately.”

Ontario Hunter? Are you sure on this last part?

 

[Flipper Dude]

Ontario Hunter? Are you sure on this last part?

Damn. Well, he is passionate.

 

[Flipper Dude]

I shoot a 404 Jeffery for Buffalo and plains game combo, but if elephant are on the menu I carry the 458 Lott, with the Jeffery as a light rifle. I know the Jeffery would work fine on an elephant, but why own a 458 Lott if you ain’t gonna hunt elephant with it?

Sorta my backwards logic to keep it in the rotation.

 

[Austin AH]

I would think that an animal 10 feet tall and weighing 5 tons would notice a ~.075" difference in bullet diameter a lot less than the shooter of that bullet.
If we supposed that a .270 (about 3,500J) is about minimum that most people would choose for elk, and then scaled that elk up to the size of an elephant, the "minimum" for that elk would be an Anzio 20mm round with 30,000J (imagine shooting that out of a 10 lb rifle!). A .375 h&h is about 4,500J. .458 Lott is about 5,500J.

From the elephant's perspective I don't think there would be a great deal of difference between any calibers wimpy enough for a human being to fire out of a rifle light enough to walk around with.

 

[Flipper Dude]

Man, that’s some Austin thinking right there!

I’m trying to wrap my pea brain around it, but it just keeps going in circles!

 

[Spey]

The safari romantic in me dreams and has always dreamt of taking an elephant with a double.

Same here and I did with my double. I had planned to sell it afterwards to help fund another hunt but now it has sentimental value and I don't think can part with it.

 

[AZDAVE]

I have exactly putting holes in two elephants. Last fall my wife was shooting her 375 with 350gr solids, I was shooting my 500/416. With 400 gr solids. We both shot at the same time on a moving elephant, so we did a body shot in the heart. Both bullets went in on the left side-through the heart- out the right side. Complete penetration, my second shot was in the neck shoulder. Junction. Hers was a coup de grace in the head. Animal we straight down..

The other I was backing my buddy up, he was shooting a 416 rem, and I was shooting a 500 Jeff. On review of the video he shot just above the brain on a frontal shot, elephant was starting to spin to leave my shot went just under the brain. The difference in impact was dramatic. His 400 gr solid went through the skull and kept going. The elephant reacted le he was hardly hit. The 570 gr solid out of the 500 the animal just froze in his tracks and fell to its side. My buddy and the ph both put one through the skull and a bad situation was averted.

First and foremost the first shot placement is paramount!!!!! Whether it is a 9.3-375 or 500-577.

For truly having a stopper my bottom number starts with a 500 and goes up. But you get into a diminishing returns in recoil department. Takes a lot developing recoil tolerance for them.

As a client the 9.3-416 class is very good as the ability to shoot accurately is much easier than the 458 and bigger.

So study the proper placement on frontal, side, and body shots. Shoot a few hundred rounds (3-500) out of you rifle till it just plain flat works. Also shoot several thousand 22lr with the same preparation. GET in shape so you can shot well after 10 miles in the hot sun. Then go hunt your elephant.

My .02 worth

 

[Austin AH]

Man, that’s some Austin thinking right there!

I’m trying to wrap my pea brain around it, but it just keeps going in circles!

It's not all that different of a concept from your excerpt about .375 h&h shooters being practical customers and .458 win mag shooters likely being under the influence of gun rags.

Elephants are so much bigger than us that hunting them is like if you or I were being hunted by a large cottontail rabbit. What would a caliber discussion look like for rabbits about to hunt a human? Probably much like this, but with calibers that you or I would consider too small to hunt anything larger than, well, rabbits.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Ontario Hunter? Are you sure on this last part?

Yeah. Pretty sure. I like me a lot.

 

[Hyde Hunter]

375 with a good solid will do the task at hand you are preparing for .
I have never hunted Africa this will be accomplished in 2027 with a 21 day safari 5 of the dangerous 7 on the list including bull elephant first animal on the safari .
I have hunted all over the USA and have taken quiet a few animals with 375 nothing wrong with a 375
I was going to take my model 70 in 458 WM on this safari .Except I will only be using lead bullets on this safari and the 458 WM just cant cut it with a heavy lead bullets . So I am switching to the 458 Lott which can handle up to 700 grain bullets. Now the 458 WM will be excellent with a 450 gr solid at 2300 fps with modern solid ammo on the market today. Reports on the 450 solid in the 458 WM. at 2300 fps will shoot completely through the elephant head . The 458 Lott is replacing the 458 WM today Finding brass for the 458 WM is starting to be difficult in the US . 458 Lott brass is all over the place.I only point this out if you will be reloading your ammo . In a pinch the 458 Lott will shoot 458 WM ammo.
Yes you can use the 416’s but your 375 will be real close with the 350 gr bullets on the market today .
If you are just wanting a bigger gun then buy a 458 lott take it on the safari then sell it unless you are planning on hunting elephant again , The 458 WM and the 458 Lott will be a lot more recoil than your 375 if you are recoil sensitive stay with the 375 and have a great safari.
A 600 nitro is no good if you cant put the bullet in the right place when SHTF and a charge happens . Sounds like you know your 375 well I would say stay with it and shoot 350 gr solid bullet .
Looking forward to seeing the report when you return from your safari .

why lead bullets, when you can shoot better bullets like CEB 450 Safari Solids. You are handicapping your self with lead. I know lead has taken 10's of thousands of Elephant but Mono's are better

 

[Flipper Dude]

It's not all that different of a concept from your excerpt about .375 h&h shooters being practical customers and .458 win mag shooters likely being under the influence of gun rags.

Elephants are so much bigger than us that hunting them is like if you or I were being hunted by a large cottontail rabbit. What would a caliber discussion look like for rabbits about to hunt a human? Probably much like this, but with calibers that you or I would consider too small to hunt anything larger than, well, rabbits.

These are thoughts that have never once entered my thought process. I can say that with certainty. Reminds me of conversations we once had as college freshmen. That said, I like to shoot elephants with the biggest cartridge I can shoot well. How about you?

And if I were to be shot by a big bunny, I’m hoping he chooses a .22, as opposed to a .222. That would make a helluva lot of difference to me.

 

[Austin AH]

These are thoughts that have never once entered my thought process. I can say that with certainty. Reminds me of conversations we once had as college freshmen. That said, I like to shoot elephants with the biggest cartridge I can shoot well. How about you?

And if I were to be shot by a big bunny, I’m hoping he chooses a .22, as opposed to a .222. That would make a helluva lot of difference to me.

I imagine that's not a short list.

A bunny shooting a .222 (~6 lb rifle, 3-4 ft lbs recoil) would be like you shooting a 300 lb rifle that still produced as much recoil as a .577 Tyrannosaur. That's an artillery piece.

Suppose you weigh 200 lbs and have a 10 lb .458 WM with 70 ft lbs of felt recoil. About 35% your body weight.

If you were a bunny, weighing 4 lbs, firing a .22 LR weighing .2 lbs (the same ratio as a 10 lb rifle to a 200 lb man), we would multiply the felt recoil of a typical .22 by the weight ratio. A 6 lb .22 generates about .2 ft lbs of recoil, so 6 lbs/0.2 lbs = 30, we multiply 30 x our 0.2 lb bunny sized safari rifle, brings us back to 6 ft lbs of felt recoil. That is 150% of the bunny's body weight. Almost 5x the recoil relative to you shooting a .458 WM.

We can do this with bullet diameter too. An elephant's heart is 2 feet across, a .375 is 24/64th", a .458 is 29/64th". A human heart is 2.5 inches across, a ratio of 9.6 to 1. So if we scale according to that ratio it's like arguing about whether a .039 caliber (0.99 mm) or .0477 caliber (1.2mm) is an appropriate caliber for a rabbit to hunt a human. It's a silly argument. It's a silly platitude to "use the biggest gun you can manage" on an animal 50x larger than the hunter. Let the PH do that.

 

[Flipper Dude]

Are you serious? This is the silliest thing I’ve seen this week. Can’t go back much further than that.

You do you, cat.