Rifle rentals, how much?

[Wheels]

Lon,

As traveling with firearms becomes more complicated and costly, camp rifles will become more the norm it seems. Hunters will normally try to add all fees so they are comparing similar pricing for a similar hunt,, but would prefer an all inclusive price. You should certainly be compensated for the cost of ammo. If you can eat the cost of an M70, or keep the price low to around $10 a day or less, you may get business that you might loose at $25-50/day rental, just as you might loose business by charging for trips to and from the airport at Vic Falls. (although you have to figure the cost of your trip in)

Lets say you have a M70 with a Swaro at a cost of $2,000.(perhaps I am way off for the price in Zimbabwe) If you rent it out 3x per year on ten day hunts at $10/day. That gives you $300/year. Will you get more than seven years service out of that rifle. Probably significantly more. If you don't charge any day rate for the rifle, could you get an extra hunter every couple years that you might miss otherwise. What is that hunter worth. $10,000-12,000. Is that worth having a M70 getting dinged up.

If you rent out your 1912, Rigby 416, that is another story. I would certainly be willing to pay more for the opportunity to use it. On the other hand I wouldn't want to use it for fear I would scratch it up.

I have started using camp rifles and have had good luck so far on four hunts. In May, my son and I were planning our first dg hunt with camp rifles. The choices are CZ in 416 or Merkel double in 470. There was no charge for rental, just ammo cost. Since I have a CZ, we were more than comfortable using it. Unfortunately that hunt is delayed. I also have another dg hunt scheduled and am using a camp rifle. It is a M70 in 375. There is no cost for it either, but I must pay for ammo.

So far on all of the hunts when I have used camp rifles, I have been upfront and said that I prefer to use camp rifles and asked what kind they had. I have asked the charge on them and have been told there was none. Just cost for the ammo used. I say that just to let you know what your competition is doing.

Good thread and good luck on your decisions.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

I had a PH who had fitted a Swarovski on top of a M70 Winchester in. 300Mag. First hunt out, hunter dropped his rifle on the scope. Who is liable for this?

Keep in mind, rifle rental does not only cover ammunition. Eventually, we have to replace the scope. With the amount that our rifles shoot, barrels dont last for ever either.
Stocks get damaged. Rifle rental covers all of this, not just the ammunition.

 

[Denvir Tire]

I have "rented" a firearm on every overseas hunting trip I've been fortunate to go on. During my trips to Africa, the rifle rental cost was quoted prior to the trip however I don't recall discussing ammo costs.
When it was time to settle up at the end the safari, both PH's from Nam and RSA,(on my first visit), gave me the total and then discounted it immediately. On my subsequent visits to both farms the PH tallied up the rental cost for the rifles and then dismissed it completely. I have visited these farms multiple times now, returning not for monetary reasons but because I have a comfort level and friendship with the PH and their families.

In contrast, I just returned from a dove shoot in Argentina just under the Covid wire. I had not been to Argentina for dove shooting for at least 10 years, and the contrast between both Africa and previous visits to Argentina is stark. Not only did they count every shotshell, this is understandable and proper, but charged us a hefty gun rental higher than quoted. They used the confusion of multiple different email points of contact in the US and Buenos Aries to justify the, (misunderstanding regarding the gun rental charge). The estancia made an extra $30US each from a group of six shooters, but I'll never go back again.

Now a few random thoughts;
When talking to outfitters, they will always tell you that bringing your own firearm is fine. However, at the end of the day, during cocktail hour most, (I think), will admit that they prefer the client rent or borrow from them.
The rifles supplied by the outfitters are a known quantity to them, often have suppressors, and they are tested. In addition, there are no issues with airports, etc.

Lastly, consider this. I believe that because the recent Argentine trip was a auction win from a DU dinner, this explains the multiple extra charges we incurred on that trip. For instance, travel to and from the airport, hunting license, landowner charge, etc, etc. I've never dealt with that anywhere I've gone hunting in the past.
I'm also waiting to go to the RSA on a hunt that I won at the DSC Northeast annual dinner. The trip includes charges that are similar to the Argentine adventure. Not sure if I'm on track here but it bears considering.

 

[Ryan]

I can see that I got a few peoples attention! At least I did not ask if you would expect to pay more for controlled feed (just kidding)!

Of course at the end of the day nothing is free, it is just how it is packaged. As I have stated we are all inclusive except firearm and ammo rental, with advance notice, we actually include the cost of National Parks Rangers, but we refund all days that the Parks Ranger is not required.

Dudders stated that guns and optics should be of good quality, I agree totally. We use top of the line M-70s, Rigby & Jefferies as rentals or loaners depending on circumstances. Ammo is normally Federal Premium. Optics Swarovski only. Possibly some outfitters make a profit from renting firearms and selling ammo, I know we sure do not but it is part of doing business.

With what is happening with airlines and the problems encountered in South Africa more and more hunters are going to renting or using firearms procured at their final destination. Then there are hunters that get a flight for considerably less if they fly on an airline that does not handle firearms.

It's of more interest as transporting a firearm get tougher to do.

Imagine being a left handed hunter. For my latest hunt, multiple permits extra baggage and firearm charges turned into a big enough mess I am renting a right handed bolt action for a buffalo hunt. Not ideal, but that's where I'm at. So I practice a lot with right handed bolt actions.

I have no problems paying a reasonable fee. But keep it reasonable. $100 to $150 so a hunt I get. But I looked at one outfitter who charged $100/day. My 10 day hunt would pay for a new rifle. Too much IMO.

 

[375Fox]

Everyone keeps mentioning how it is becoming more complicated traveling with firearms, has anyone actually had a real issue? From USA to South Africa and Namibia I don’t think could be much easier. I’ve never had any issues coming back into USA into Atlanta either. My most recent trips were March this year and October last year, no issues.
I could understand difficulty coming from other countries.

 

[Ryan]

Everyone keeps mentioning how it is becoming more complicated traveling with firearms, has anyone actually had a real issue? From USA to South Africa and Namibia I don’t think could be much easier. I’ve never had any issues coming back into USA into Atlanta either. My most recent trips were March this year and October last year, no issues.
I could understand difficulty coming from other countries.

I was supposed to go through Frankfurt. That used to be easy if transiting. Don't touch your firearm, goes from one plane to the next and no one worried. Now they have a transit permit. I was told it would take a week to get it back, so I applied for it a month prior. this was in February, back when there was still flights through Frankfurt for a flight in late March. A week and a half later-nothing. Sent an email to the only address I could find, a couple days no reply, so I assume I made a mistake and reapply and still nothing. Got a polite email after over a week of yes I needed to apply (already knew that) but zero help beyond that. My original flight was almost two weeks ago and I got my permits back for those flights....two days ago. So, yeah, I've had issue.

 

[Nyati]

Last three hunts I rented, there are issues and costs when flying with a firearm, specially if you have to take another domestic flight. Plus the fact that I prefer to hunt with a suppressor, and those are illegal in my country.

Paid 60€ per day, ammo included. Will certainly do it again.

 

[Mike B.]

I will not bring a rifle on an overseas trip. It's just too much of a hassle so I am renting a camp rifle everytime. While I expect there to be a fee for a rental, I would also expect that rifle/scope to be in amazing shape. Like Marius mentioned above there will be those additional costs because people can be completely careless and then you do just have an accident from time to time. So how would an Outfitter work through that? Think of an M70 and a leupold vx5 scope. Just talking in US dollars and buying here, you could be around 2000-2300 for the setup. That'd for sure be higher for some places in Africa to get the same setup. Depending on the rental fee being charged and the amount of hunters in camp each year, the outfitter would possibly make that back in a years worth of hunting. This is why I expect the gun and scope to be excellent condition. I don't foresee these setups being replaced yearly even if they have high volumes of hunters so if it's not replaced often, it still should be well maintained. I do expect to be charged for ammunition as well. Seeing the ammo costs for Zimbabwe is just baffling. That's got to hurt for sure.

Really overall, I don't have a problem with the costs as long as the Outfitter is good on their end of the rental. If I get to camp and the rifle looks like it served in action of every day of world War 2, then I won't be happy about paying a rental fee.

My last trip to Namibia, I was not charged for ammo or rifle rental even though it was quoted to me. I just suspect it was because I took good care of the rifle and I shot 11 animals without shooting more than one box of ammo so they didn't see the need to throw more onto me. It could have also just been forgotten to be added but I figured that was not very likely. I didn't ask about that. I have much respect for not being charged. It's things like that, even though it was pretty minor, that will end up making a bigger impression on me. Good service is always awesome to see, but it's the little details of going above good to become great that I remember.

 

[AES]

Is it generally good form to leave behind un-used ammo?

My personal feeling is that I strongly prefer to bring my own rifles and, if I do, would be annoyed if I got charged for borrowing a shotgun or 22 to do some small game work that was not on my initial want list. In other words, if I am expanding my scope of game bag outside of the rifles I brought, that "rental" should be included in the price of the game that is entirely incremental.

Realistically, if you are worrying about the cost of gun and ammo use, find away to decrease animal budget or wait to go on the trip later. At the end of the day, I don't think an outfitter would turn down "I will shoot an extra animal f you let me use your rifle without charge".

 

[375Fox]

Is it generally good form to leave behind un-used ammo?

My personal feeling is that I strongly prefer to bring my own rifles and, if I do, would be annoyed if I got charged for borrowing a shotgun or 22 to do some small game work that was not on my initial want list. In other words, if I am expanding my scope of game bag outside of the rifles I brought, that "rental" should be included in the price of the game that is entirely incremental.

Realistically, if you are worrying about the cost of gun and ammo use, find away to decrease animal budget or wait to go on the trip later. At the end of the day, I don't think an outfitter would turn down "I will shoot an extra animal f you let me use your rifle without charge".

I would only leave behind ammo if you are asked to. I would also make sure you still have some bullets with you so you can declare on exit to avoid any potential problems.
I have never been charged for using a 22 or a shotgun. I’ve only been charged if I did not bring my own rifle and used the outfitter’s rifle as primary gun.

 

[CBH Australia]

I hired a Sako with Swarovski z6 and was happy to do so. Paid a day rate that included reloaded ammo but it worked, no problem.
I did all the figures looking for a affordable Hunt. I drank some beers everyday, tried the wine and Whiskey. It was quoted as ll inclusive excepting the usuals and rifle hire.Rifle hire was on the package invoice along with my tour etc. no problem
I didn’t waste ammo I returned all shells they said that never happens. I took care of the ride. I own Tikka , CZ , and Remington How so happy to use a Sako and suppresor and pay a fee. Their fee was on the lower end I will add.
Ammo sounds expensive in your country, fair enough you didn’t say why calibre but if I had budget to shoot an Elephant or even better a Lion a $15 bullet on the other side of the world is negligible to the cost and if it takes $60 to kill n Elephant cleanly so be it. I reload nd I will pay $3 for a premium projectile in .375, if I get to Hunt something big a $5 round is not an issue.
I booked 10 culls knowing they sell the meat, I paid my tips. I drank the beers and looked after the rifle. I’m happy
If they set a cap on the hire that’s a save for the hunter if they are not wasting ammo. (100 week or part of, 10 days gets the operator $200 for 10 days but that’s cheaper than the lower rates but it’s not going to be shot out if there are only several animals for. Trophy hunter)
In your country perhaps you need to account for the ammo and just increase day rate slightly to keep the rifles maintained and stay ahead of the costs incurred to you.
I suspect you are talking big bores. If I hunted something big I might want a double. Now if you are hiring a double or a Blaser that might easily cost double what’ve the scoped M70 did maybe there is. Premium hire. It’s all relevant.
I’d have taken a Tikka and liked to have my rifle on the hunt and in the photos but didn’t really look into it. People here said travel with carry on if you are worried about your first trip. Every time we we went through a terminal with just. Backpack people Sid do you have any more luggage?
If an operator said I will hire you a Howa and Bushnell scope for $50 a day plus ammo I would see that as excessive and reconsider. You all talk in $US so I figure that’s $1.50 of ours
Planning my first Safari I considered everything, doing it again I might be more likely to consider the offer and try negotiate if I felt there was room to move but we generally don’t know each other and sometimes client outfitter might clash, particuarly I feel you pushed for a deal and you turn out to be a poor shot or drunk them dry.

 

[Longwalker]

I've rented a rifle and ammunition in South Africa, and ended up only paying for ammunition. I thought that was a very good deal. The rifle was a Sako, the Scope a Swarovski. I have the same model rifle at home, so no worries.

I brought my own two rifles to Namibia, and paid, and paid, and paid some more. Airline fees that were supposedly paid in advance all the way thorough. Travel agent fees to secure the necessary rifle permits. The time and effort to secure an export permit from Canada and the permits to transit via Frankfurt and arrive at Windhoek. More airline fees for my rifle for the Air Namibia flight from Frankfurt to Windhoek. Was asked to pay a bribe ( that I refused to pay ) by a Namibian border police official when I arrived. And when the hunt was done and I went home, I had to pay extra airline fees on the Windhoek - Frankfurt leg ( they called it an overweight charge this time, when I had already paid for an extra fee for my rifle case) and again from Frankfurt to Toronto. Lufthanza had no record of my gun case payment through Air Canada, their partner. Just try arguing with the "responsible" airline employee when you're standing in the check in line and your flight is due to board soon. Nope, they have all the power. Just pay. At least I didn't have to pay Toronto to Saskatoon twice. All-in it cost me several hundred dollars, and my own ammunition.
On that Namibian hunt I brought my 9.2x62 bolt rifle in addition to the 450-400 double. I used the 9.3 for plains game. I discovered my PH used a 9.3x62 for his own hunting. When I left I reported all my 9.3 ammunition used up. I only fired a total of five 450-400 cartridges, so the rest came home with me. After clearing customs and immigration in Toronto another stupid airline employee threw my bag on the belt for the flight to Saskatoon before I even had a chance to tell him there was ammunition in my bag and I intended to declare it, and here are the permits ... that took an hour and a half of my time to retrieve from security and re-do the check in. I think I would have preferred to use up the rest of my ammo too.
I greatly enjoyed using my own double rifle on that buffalo hunt. Part of the fun. And I put up with the cost and hassle because of that. But on my next hunt to Zimbabwe I will rent a rifle. Firstly because it is the law. I cannot legally bring a rifle to Zimbabwe from Canada, there is an arms embargo to consider. And it is far simpler, and relatively worry free. And even if it costs a couple hundred dollars, it's a competitive fee.

What would I like to see? As others stated before - I would prefer to have a decent ( not necessarily premium) rifle available at a flat rate for the hunt, or included as part of the day rates. I have no problem with paying for ammo by the box or by the cartridge, at cost. And I realize the cost of ammunition in some places will seem like a lot.

 

[salesman]

Hunted RSA four times with the same outfitter and have used his rifles each time. The first trip (7 hunting days) if I remember correctly the rental charge was supposed to be either $25 or $35 per day for the rifle and $5 per round. I agreed to that at booking and if he had charged me that I would have not given it a second thought. However, when the final bill was figured I think he just charged me a flat $100 for rental and ammo combined. The next three trips he has charged me zero for using his rifles and a flat $50 for ammo each trip. As far as I am concerned that is a great deal. I would love to take my own rifles, but I love the feeling of knowing I will have no hassles traveling with firearms more!

As far as what and how an outfitter charges for firearm rental is up to them, but I do not think they should use firearm rental as a profit center, there are plenty of other options for profit without making clients feel they are being nickel and dimed to death. They should charge enough to be able to replace the equipment over its' lifespan, and also figure enough in to cover the occasional accidents that happen, call it self-insuring. Ammo costs what it costs, I see no problem charging whatever the replacement cost is.

The bottom line is...I have found that most everything is negotiable when setting up a trip...whatever the fees for rifle/ammo are is what you negotiate...after that stick to your agreement and go have fun!

Just my 2 cents

 

[CBH Australia]

It’s sounding like we/clients would be happy with. Flat fee arrangement.
If a Sako cost $2500 here and a Swarovski Z6 cost probably the same or like at least $3000 U.S. and you want to hire that to me for $100 per week or part of that’s ok so let’s say you can get 20 hires in year for $150 that’s gonna pay it’s way each year but with some loss, downtime, maintenance or discounts you should be ok and paying $200 hassle free travel is ok. Thrown in ammo or if ammo is the cost factor make it user pays and lower the rifle hire if it is carried more than used.
I hope that helps the OP and others that will hunt Africa regularly feel that is a fair option.
If you want to hire a $1000 setup that shooters re happy with and you are not precious about it being a camp rifle hire it at a competitive cost. Example in Australia I could have a Howa with a reliable scope for $1000 Aussie but many hunters appreciate nice optics as we get into the age bracket we need them we also moving to that point in life we can fund a safari or buy a scope worth a grand. On a cull hunt I would accept a functional like rifle for cheap hire but when a Sako was offered I was impressed and still had a cheap daily hire. Ammo was thrown in and no t wasted
As a shooter and not trophy hunter I like nice rifles but Cn still get results with my Howa .223.
If hire rate is proportionate to quality or market value then we should expect to pay.

 

[Mekaniks]

I don't have a problem paying for rifle and ammo, as long as all the cost is upfront. I personnally prefer that it's built into the package.
What I don't want is to find out that I have costs added to the end of my safari that I was not expecting.

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

hi all

from another outfitter point of view

i have about 8-10 different rifle options to choose from that i rent out each year
we rent them out for around $20-$50 per day ammo included
i have had clients that shoot 10 animals and use maybe 20 rounds of ammo including first day on the range
i have had others that use nearly 20 rounds first day on the range
others manage to screw out the slings, drop the rifle on the scope, remove the bolt and re insert it incorrectly, crack the stocks, scratch the stocks, force their room mates incorrect ammo into their rifle, scratch barrels, damage scopes, etc etc
so believe me its not that simple to say the rifle costs x get so many years of use out of it and bam theres your rental rate
i have to repair and or replace parts on numerous rifles every single year without fail
ammunition is costly yes.
but as i mentioned earlier it is "swings and roundabouts" as they say, some hunters treasure the weapon, enjoy using it and use minimal ammo, so there is a big win.
but to be truthful if guys like this are hunting a few animals of decent value i tend to leave off the rifle hire charge or make it minimal(less than quoted) but i will never make it more than quoted, thats not on!!

A rifle being used by various people all who come from different parts of the world, and gets maybe 200-500 round through the barrel
as apposed to
a rifle owned and used by only one person, the same person who paid for it, and gets maybe 120-250 round through the barrel.
these 2 setups will look very different after a few years and one will require a lot more attention then the other

looking forward

 

[Buckdog]

1st let me say I have never hunted with a gun that wasn't my own and NEVER WILL! That said I have a few guns that I lend out very selectively and I can tell you that even those select individuals DO NOT TREAT MY WEAPONS AS I WOULD, thus they don't get primo weapons to use period. I can truly see what tally ho says about people abusing weapons that aren't there own, dropping them, scratching them, busting scopes, etc. and that would either 1. have to figured into the cost of the rental or 2.a rental agreement if you break you pay for it! You will have guys that are 1 shot 1 kill and fools that shoot 1 box 1 kill and really no way to tell which is which until the shooting starts as they all lie and are great white hunters until the shooting starts then the truth comes out.
So as a business model I would charge $25 a day plus cost of ammo and not try and make a profit on the gun/ammo just a break even. Then it would be a very good idea to reward a quality hunter who treats your gun well and shoots well by crediting back the rental fee at the end of the safari. That little bit of kindness and goodwill can buy you a lot of loyalty, etc.

 

[mark-hunter]

Then it would be a very good idea to reward a quality hunter who treats your gun well and shoots well by crediting back the rental fee at the end of the safari. That little bit of kindness and goodwill can buy you a lot of loyalty, etc.

I agree!

 

[mark-hunter]

I have a question for outfitters following this topic, or hunters with experience of hunt not only in Namiba or RSA, but other countries:

In what African countries is in fact recommended to use camp rifle, for the reason of possible problems with local import firearms regulations?

I believe, I have read somewhere on this forum that this may apply in some of central African countries, where Bongo is hunted, but I may be wrong.

 

[KAROO WILD Safaris]

We’ve never charged for rifle usage and as a fact every conceivable extra (permits, taxes etc) is included in all our Safaris. I dislike being nickle and dimed when I’m on vacation and I can’t in good conscious charge someone to use my rifle. Given that someone has travelled halfway around the world to hunt with me, I can’t charge for something that’s not a significant tangible cost.