Blazer R8 issue

[Grumpy gumpy]

None of these issues would occur if you just threw the blasser in the bin and bought a Strasser instead……



(See how long it takes and who knows their history )
Gumpy

 

[Nhoro]

I am struggling a bit to comprehend the conversation, maybe I am being a bit thick here. It seems to me that R8 owners are being told that the design of the rifle allows the firing pin to be released while the bolt is not closed completely ? That doesn't sound like a good idea to me and a click is about the best outcome that you can hope for. A bang would probably not end well for the owner. Is there a firing pin block or does Blaser just rely on the fact that a soft primer strike won't go bang? Never heard of a disaster but I wouldn't want to take a chance.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Not if you don’t close the bolt all the way. It’s the same issue, different mechanics

@Aaron N
Easier to see a turn bolt ain't closed than an R8.
Slightly different mechanisms
One pull push
The other up, pull, push down.
Bob

 

[spike.t]

At your place he was probably hung over and shouldn't have been operating a shoelace much less a quality rifle.

Mmm.....nope from memory he didn't drink that much....definitely didn't have a taste for whisky......

 

[Kevin375]

I know someone who used to have a .257 Weatherby magnum barrel on his Blaser R93, and sometimes it had problems with it.
We thought it was a headspace problem, but in real the problem came from its resizing die. With a new one, the problem was solved.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

I am struggling a bit to comprehend the conversation, maybe I am being a bit thick here. It seems to me that R8 owners are being told that the design of the rifle allows the firing pin to be released while the bolt is not closed completely ? That doesn't sound like a good idea to me and a click is about the best outcome that you can hope for. A bang would probably not end well for the owner. Is there a firing pin block or does Blaser just rely on the fact that a soft primer strike won't go bang? Never heard of a disaster but I wouldn't want to take a chance.

Not sure about this…you either no your equipment or don’t. I’ve hunted 5 Capes with a Blaser R8 and never had a problem with it. All of this with the ability to place a very quick second shot when needed. Much faster than with one of my traditional bolt guns.

HH

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Today I went to Safari and Outdoor Pretoria especially to see the Blaser R8 Selous they have, which happens to be in 375H&H at present. I must say that this is a very attractive package, the wood and the case colour is exceptional.

 

[BeeMaa]

Today I went to Safari and Outdoor Pretoria especially to see the Blaser R8 Selous they have, which happens to be in 375H&H at present. I must say that this is a very attractive package, the wood and the case colour is exceptional.
View attachment 718091

I saw it when we were there in August. I was drooling, but already have a 375. Now if it were in 416RM...

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I saw it when we were there in August. I was drooling, but already have a 375. Now if it were in 416RM...

Get a 416RM barrel!

 

[One Day...]

I am struggling a bit to comprehend the conversation, maybe I am being a bit thick here. It seems to me that R8 owners are being told that the design of the rifle allows the firing pin to be released while the bolt is not closed completely ? That doesn't sound like a good idea to me and a click is about the best outcome that you can hope for. A bang would probably not end well for the owner. Is there a firing pin block or does Blaser just rely on the fact that a soft primer strike won't go bang? Never heard of a disaster but I wouldn't want to take a chance.

Not sure about this…you either no your equipment or don’t. I’ve hunted 5 Capes with a Blaser R8 and never had a problem with it. All of this with the ability to place a very quick second shot when needed. Much faster than with one of my traditional bolt guns.

HH

A just question Nhoro

To establish context, it is possible to release the firing pin on any turn-bolt action while closing the bolt. Just depress the trigger as the bolt is being turned down.

This is down routinely when re-assembling the rifle to avoid dry firing it. Good practice ​

A number of folks do it to carry a live round in the chamber without having the firing pin spring under tension. Although well intended, this is obviously a mistake because a knock on the rear of the firing pin will probably cause the rifle to fire. Bad practice ​

​

Now, be careful !!! if you close the turn bolt too fast on a live round (above scenario) with the firing pin intentionally released by depressing the trigger, the rifle may fire, as nothing stops the firing pin from going forward all the way to the primer. Dangerous practice ​

If you want to test for yourself, grab your closest Mauser, Winchester, Remington, Tikka, Sako, Brno, etc. and an empty primed case.

You can do exactly the same with a R8: press the trigger as you close the bolt, except: the major safety difference between a turn-bolt and a R8 is that where a turn-bolt firing pin, released when the bolt is not in battery, can ride all the way to rest on, or fire, the primer, a safety block stops the firing pin of the R8 before it contacts the primer. Actually, what causes the dreaded click is the firing pin hitting the mechanical safety block and preventing an accident with people failing to close the action for whatever reason and still pulling the trigger.

Let us illustrate:

Here is a Winchester 70 action partially closed on an incompletely re-sized reload. If you pull the trigger now, it will possibly (likely ?) go bang*.
* whether the turn-bolt will go bang or not depends on whether the action is close enough to full battery for the firing pin to protuberate from the bolt face.

Here is a CZ 550 action partially closed on an incompletely re-sized reload. If you pull the trigger now, it will possibly (likely?) go bang*.
* whether the turn-bolt will go bang or not depends on whether the action is close enough to full battery for the firing pin to protuberate from the bolt face.

Here is a R8 action partially closed on an incompletely re-sized reload. If you pull the trigger now, it will go click.

Which one do you want to try?

Of course, you are going to tell me that you are not stupid enough to pull the trigger on your turn bolt if the action is not closed, and that you can tell if it is with your eyes closed.

To which I will answer that I am not stupid enough to pull the trigger on my R8 if the action is not closed, and that I can tell if it is with my eyes closed.

 

[roklok]

A just question Nhoro

To establish context, it is possible to release the firing pin on any turn-bolt action while closing the bolt. Just depress the trigger as the bolt is being turned down.

This is down routinely when re-assembling the rifle to avoid dry firing it. Good practice ​

A number of folks do it to carry a live round in the chamber without having the firing pin spring under tension. Although well intended, this is obviously a mistake because a knock on the rear of the firing pin will probably cause the rifle to fire. Bad practice ​

​

Now, be careful !!! if you close the turn bolt too fast on a live round (above scenario) with the firing pin intentionally released by depressing the trigger, the rifle may fire, as nothing stops the firing pin from going forward all the way to the primer. Dangerous practice ​

If you want to test for yourself, grab your closest Mauser, Winchester, Remington, Tikka, Sako, Brno, etc. and an empty primed case.

You can do exactly the same with a R8: press the trigger as you close the bolt, except: the major safety difference between a turn-bolt and a R8 is that where a turn-bolt firing pin, released when the bolt is not in battery, can ride all the way to rest on, or fire, the primer, a safety block stops the firing pin of the R8 before it contacts the primer. Actually, what causes the dreaded click is the firing pin hitting the mechanical safety block and preventing an accident with people failing to close the action for whatever reason and still pulling the trigger.

Let us illustrate:

Here is a Winchester 70 action partially closed on an incompletely re-sized reload. If you pull the trigger now, it will possibly (likely ?) go bang*.
* whether the turn-bolt will go bang or not depends on whether the action is close enough to full battery for the firing pin to protuberate from the bolt face.

View attachment 718146

Here is a CZ 550 action partially closed on an incompletely re-sized reload. If you pull the trigger now, it will possibly (likely?) go bang*.
* whether the turn-bolt will go bang or not depends on whether the action is close enough to full battery for the firing pin to protuberate from the bolt face.

View attachment 718147

Here is a R8 action partially closed on an incompletely re-sized reload. If you pull the trigger now, it will go click.

View attachment 718149

Which one do you want to try?

Of course, you are going to tell me that you are not stupid enough to pull the trigger on your turn bolt if the action is not closed, and that you can tell if it is with your eyes closed.

To which I will answer that I am not stupid enough to pull the trigger on my R8 if the action is not closed, and that I can tell if it is with my eyes closed.

The part you left out is the fact that on the turn bolt rifles the rifle may go bang with bolt handle lifted when trigger is pulled (very unlikely), but if it does the bolt will be closed before ignition. The firing pin can not reach the primer if the bolt handle is lifted, so the energy of the striker spring needs to close the bolt before igniting the primer. The round will not fire with bolt handle lifted, if the round fires the bolt handle will be forced closed prior to ignition as the striker drops. Generally the energy needed to finish closing the bolt saps so much energy there is not enough remaining to ignite primer. Other than that, a decent comparison of the safety features between conventional bolt action and R8. Your narrative would make it seem that a lifted bolt could cause safety issues, when that's not the case, other than potential misfires when facing DG, which the R8 also shares.

 

[roklok]

No....no modern bolt action will allow the firing pin to strike primer out of battery absent some mechanical failure, to imply this is disingenuous. The firing pin can not reach primer if bolt handle is lifted and locking lugs are not engaged. Can you describe the "very specific situation" where a turn bolt will strike the primer out of battery ?

 

[One Day...]

The part you left out is the fact that on the turn bolt rifles the rifle may go bang with bolt handle lifted when trigger is pulled (very unlikely), but if it does the bolt will be closed before ignition. The firing pin can not reach the primer if the bolt handle is lifted, so the energy of the striker spring needs to close the bolt before igniting the primer. The round will not fire with bolt handle lifted, if the round fires the bolt handle will be forced closed prior to ignition as the striker drops. Generally the energy needed to finish closing the bolt saps so much energy there is not enough remaining to ignite primer. Other than that, a decent comparison of the safety features between conventional bolt action and R8. Your narrative would make it seem that a lifted bolt could cause safety issues, when that's not the case, other than potential misfires when facing DG, which the R8 also shares.

I generally fully agree with you roklok, but the turn-bolt will complete its rotation doward under the force of the fire pin spring being released, ONLY IF the bolt face is not blocked from moving forward, for example by an oversize reload that does not fully chamber, or by a dirty chamber.

The case you describe, which we can all easily replicate, of the bolt completing closure under the strike of the fire pin release, only applies on an empty chamber, and does not apply to the circumstance we are discussing here: failure to fully close on an oversized reload.

As I stated in the above post, "*whether the turn-bolt will go bang or not depends on whether the action is close enough to full battery for the firing pin to protuberate from the bolt face". This is highly variable, especially with firing pins that are screwed in the bolt shroud, and that have an adjustable length, like for example the pin of the CZ 550.

A lifted bolt could indeed cause a safety issue, but I will hasten to state that this is a rarity because the locking lugs of a turn bolt engage the barrel - or action - tenons by ~10 mm, and a 20% closed turn bolt action still has ~2 mm of lug contact depth, which is plenty enough to maintain the action closed. In fact, I expect that most out of battery firing with a turn bolt go undetected, unless lugs are damaged.

 

[One Day...]

View attachment 718164

No....no modern bolt action will allow the firing pin to strike primer out of battery absent some mechanical failure, to imply this is disingenuous. The firing pin can not reach primer if bolt handle is lifted and locking lugs are not engaged. Can you describe the "very specific situation" where a turn bolt will strike the primer out of battery ?

I promise you that firing pins that are screwed in the bolt shroud (e.g. CZ 550, etc.) can be unknowingly re-assembled at incorrect length and protuberate enough from the bolt face to strike the primer while the bolt is not fully in battery, e.g. bolt partially closed on an oversize reload not fully chambered (we are of course not talking about a reload sticking out 1/4" out of the chamber, but one resisting the last few thousandths of fully sitting in the chamber). This is not the case of the "bolt handle is lifted and locking lugs are not engaged", this is the case of bolt partially closed and lugs partially engaged, as will be the case on an oversized reload. In this case, this is not a mechanical failure per se, but I still agree to the concept: this falls in the same type of situation, something has been done wrong.

I am not prosecuting turn bolts safety, I own plenty and consider them fully safe, and I am not being disingenuous (hint: ask me how I learned a long time ago about reassembling a CZ 550 firing pin at incorrect length), I am just making the point that when the human factor goes wrong, the best mechanical designs can be made to fail, and this applies just as much to any turn bolt as it does to a R8.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

The Ruger No1 has none of these problems.

 

[Datchew]

The Ruger No1 has none of these problems.

Awesome

I will mark that this is the first time I ever saw protuberate used in a sentence.

A very potato sounding word.

 

[roklok]

If the bolt is blocked in its forward or downward travel the firing pin cant reach the

I generally fully agree with you roklok, but the turn-bolt will complete its rotation doward under the force of the fire pin spring being released, ONLY IF the bolt face is not blocked from moving forward, for example by an oversize reload that does not fully chamber, or by a dirty chamber.

The case you describe, which we can all easily replicate, of the bolt completing closure under the strike of the fire pin release, only applies on an empty chamber, and does not apply to the circumstance we are discussing here: failure to fully close on an oversized reload.

As I stated in the above post, "*whether the turn-bolt will go bang or not depends on whether the action is close enough to full battery for the firing pin to protuberate from the bolt face". This is highly variable, especially with firing pins that are screwed in the bolt shroud, and that have an adjustable length, like for example the pin of the CZ 550.

A lifted bolt could indeed cause a safety issue, but I will hasten to state that this is a rarity because the locking lugs of a turn bolt engage the barrel - or action - tenons by ~10 mm, and a 20% closed turn bolt action still has ~2 mm of lug contact depth, which is plenty enough to maintain the action closed. In fact, I expect that most out of battery firing with a turn bolt go undetected, unless lugs are damaged.

Yes, of course there are many reasons the force of the striker fall will not finish closing the bolt. In that case the firing pin won't reach the primer. The cocking piece will hit the ramp of the cocking cam in the bolt body and forward movement will stop. The cocking piece can only travel forward for firing pin to protrude from the bolt face when the bolt is closed. When the bolt handle is lifted, the cocking piece will not be able to travel forwards far enough to strike primer before its movement is arrested by the cocking cam surface on the bolt. Even the cock on close Enfield actions have a partial cocking "safety" cam on bolt body to prevent the firing pin to protrude unless bolt handle is turned downward into battery. The Mauser 98 even takes this a step further with a shoulder on front end of firing pin that fits in a slot inside of bolt body, if bolt isn't turned down the shoulder will not fit in slot to allow firing pin protrusion.

Most out of battery firings with a turn bolt do not "go undetected", they do not occur. Absent a mechanical failure or possibly an incorrect assembly they do not occur as the firing pin can not protrude from bolt face unless the bolt handle is turned down in battery. For the firing pin to protrude from bolt face the lugs have to be engaged, if not 100% near enough to 100% for all practical purposes. Your example of a 20% closed bolt will not fire out of battery.

Incorrectly assembled rifles are a wild card, I am sure as in your CZ 550 example there may be ways to create a dangerous condition with improper assembly. Mechanical parts failure could also cause issues.

 

[One Day...]

Your reasoning is entirely factual and logical, roklok, I subscribe to it, and I mainly agree with it: in a turn bolt rifle with a firing pin of the correct length, the bolt has to be nearly 100% closed for the firing pin to reach the primer.

And I agree that improperly assembled firing pin assemblies (my case with the CZ 550, I did not count the turns when disassembling - I was young and naive in those days!), or those home-tuned to have a "stronger and deeper striking force" (I have heard that many times amongst mountain hunters dealing with frozen snow and ice) are a wild card.

So, in the case of an oversized reload with the bolt nearly completely closed, what would be technically a firing out of battery, i.e. bolt not 100% fully closed, could in fact be in battery "if not 100% near enough to 100% for all practical purposes" as you say ... and would therefore go undetected as I say, or be non existent for practical purposes, as you assert.

Shifting now away for oversized reloads, I have actually seen a Win 70 fire at some stage between "out of battery" and "in battery"!

In the mid 80's, in a Pennsylvania deer camp, I actually witnessed a hunter intent on carrying his Win 70 rifle with the firing pin spring untensioned over a round in the chamber, lower his bolt handle too fast (or probably let it slip?) while he was depressing the trigger, and the outcome was opposite the general rule you mentioned in your previous post: "Generally the energy needed to finish closing the bolt saps so much energy there is not enough remaining to ignite primer." I agree with the general rule, but in this case, the firing pin spring energy DID finish closing the bolt AND DID ignite the primer. Whether the primer ignited, and the rifle fired, before the bolt was 100% closed, or not, I do not know, but fire it did. Thank God for muzzle discipline, there was no consequence, aside from embarrassment...

So, as an outcome of our discussion, I will remove the words "on an incompletely re-sized reload" from my previous example, because such oversized reload will prevent the bolt from closing under the firing pin energy, and I will further remove the word "likely?", and I will simply say, because, THAT, I have seen with my own two eyes:

Here is a Winchester 70 action partially closed on an incompletely re-sized reload. If you pull the trigger now, it will possibly (likely ?) go bang.

Again, no blame on the Win 70, the blame rests with the hunter, but the main point I was trying to make, stands: a partially closed turn bolt can fire when the trigger is depressed, although I grant you that it is indeed extremely improbable with an oversized reload that prevents the bolt from closing nearly 100%.

You can easily replicate the failure mode by letting your bolt handle fly down on an empty primed case inserted manually in the chamber. It will be fascinating to hear if the primer ignites or not, although individual springs tension likely vary significantly.

Good discussion, thank you, I hope it was not too boring for the audience