Why no love for the .358 Win?

[sestoppelman]

Superior means "I like it better".

I think the reality is that between the standard level 7's and the .30-06 class there isnt a hill of beans difference in killing power on a given class of game.

The .358 Win is a good round, no getting around it. With some loads it churns up over 3000 lbs of energy, which is more than the classic .30-06 factory loads would do.

That doesnt mean its the long range equal of the '06 but within normal hunting ranges it will hit just as hard and up close perhaps even harder with heavy bullet loads. There are other just as important means to measure a rounds worth besides just sectional density: bullet diameter and weight come to mind.

These are fun academic exercises but like my opener above, much depends on individual preferences, but most all rounds will do their job well if we dont try to stray too far outside the normal parameters of a rounds intended purposes.

 

[curtism1234]

So, superiority is an interesting concept, I'm wondering what exactly you find superior? I only ask because, at least in the US, the cartridges are close enough to ballistic twins that it isn't worth conversing about, there are more rifles available, significantly more loads available, and reloading components are exponentially easier to find.

I have shot 308, 7x57 and 8mm Mauser very fast in hot desserts, which often seems to be an argument detracting from the 308 case, and I have never had any issue with any of them as far as feeding or pressures. I'm just wondering what is superior about the round?

I have no dog in the fight, but the pro to the 7mm-08 is the ability to have a lighter rifle. The pro to the Mauser is being able to shoot heavier bullets given how manufacturers twist the 08 barrel.

 

[ChrisG]

So, superiority is an interesting concept, I'm wondering what exactly you find superior? I only ask because, at least in the US, the cartridges are close enough to ballistic twins that it isn't worth conversing about, there are more rifles available, significantly more loads available, and reloading components are exponentially easier to find.

I have shot 308, 7x57 and 8mm Mauser very fast in hot desserts, which often seems to be an argument detracting from the 308 case, and I have never had any issue with any of them as far as feeding or pressures. I'm just wondering what is superior about the round?

Larger case capacity and the ability to seat heavy for caliber bullets at full length. A handloader can make a 7x57 shine. It can duplicate the 7mm-08 at lower pressures, or pressure being equal, throw the same weight bullet faster. Case is also more heavily tapered, making it feed and extract more smoothly.. plus the fact that it is the classic of classics for medium sized game

Which hot desserts? I am partial to cobbler myself. Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

 

[Red Leg]

Superior means "I like it better".

I think the reality is that between the standard level 7's and the .30-06 class there isnt a hill of beans difference in killing power on a given class of game.

The .358 Win is a good round, no getting around it. With some loads it churns up over 3000 lbs of energy, which is more than the classic .30-06 factory loads would do.

That doesnt mean its the long range equal of the '06 but within normal hunting ranges it will hit just as hard and up close perhaps even harder with heavy bullet loads. There are other just as important means to measure a rounds worth besides just sectional density: bullet diameter and weight come to mind.

These are fun academic exercises but like my opener above, much depends on individual preferences, but most all rounds will do their job well if we dont try to stray too far outside the normal parameters of a rounds intended purposes.

Not to put to fine a point on it, but “bullet diameter and weight” are the two variables used to compute SD (mass and cross sectional diameter). As long as we remain on earth, mass and weight are pretty much a wash. I think the other two elements that do matter are bullet design and velocity. With respect to at least one of these, the .358 also isn’t exactly best of class.

 

[sestoppelman]

Not to put to fine a point on it, but “bullet diameter and weight” are the two variables used to compute SD (mass and cross sectional diameter). As long as we remain on earth, mass and weight are pretty much a wash. I think the other two elements that do matter are bullet design and velocity. With respect to at least one of these, the .358 also isn’t exactly best of class.

Absolutely and as you say bullet design and speed. Thats what makes the .35 Whelen really shine. And your finer point is well taken.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Right, but by that metric there's always a more effective option right? 7lb 300 win mags are fairly common, so why have a .30-06 when a .300 is available, and why use that when a .338 is available with just a bit more weight. Just another perspective. If I need a more effective gun, I can always reach for my .375. I can't tell anyone why I really like the .358. Maybe its the capability to easily shoot cast bullets from it or the relatively lumbering heavy fat bullet it shoots from shorter barrels with very little powder applied... If I was ultra practical, I would have a .22, a .30-06, and a .375 and be done with hunting rifles.... they would cover the gamut of what I could possibly want to hunt the world over. I kind of like the fact that the .358 puts me at a bit of a disadvantage. As to why a bolt gun... thats simple. There is no other repeating firearm in my mind that can match it for looks and strength, with the exception of the Winchester 1895.

@ChrisG
People that like the 35s like them because they just pain work, no fuss, no bother. They don't kick you out from under you hat and can be name reasonably light and compact with very manageable recoil.
Plus as you said they make great cast bullet throwers.
Just simple.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Absolutely and as you say bullet design and speed. Thats what makes the .35 Whelen really shine. And your finer point is well taken.

@sestoppelman
A 250gr out of a 358 at 2,350fps compared to a 250gr out of a FACTORY LOADED Whelen at 2,450 ain't that much different.
It's only when the Whelen is loaded properly that it really shines.
The old 35 Whelen load with the 250s was the standard it was judged and not found lacking. Surely 100fps can't make that much difference.
Bob

 

[freefall]

And as St Elmer said " shoot it with a .358 Winchester, you can eat right up to the bullet hole"
I firmly believe that between 2500 and 2700 fps is where you start blood-shooting a bucket of meat.

 

[noyb72]

Larger case capacity and the ability to seat heavy for caliber bullets at full length. A handloader can make a 7x57 shine. It can duplicate the 7mm-08 at lower pressures, or pressure being equal, throw the same weight bullet faster. Case is also more heavily tapered, making it feed and extract more smoothly.. plus the fact that it is the classic of classics for medium sized game

Which hot desserts? I am partial to cobbler myself. Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

So,
We can be at this all night (century?) I'd say what you have identified are differences, I have a hard time swallowing that any of that is superiority. I agree with the classic comment, but that is truly an individual opinion.

The only thing I don't buy is the idea of the tapered case. Of course, empirically, it provides superior feeding, but is it enough to matter? Literally millions of head of game have been taken with a 308 case and profile, what percentage of them had feeding issues? Far less that 1 I'd bet heavy money on.

How about we agree that they are both fantastic, well proven cartridges, or as USOG would say "excellent!"

 

[ChrisG]

And as St Elmer said " shoot it with a .358 Winchester, you can eat right up to the bullet hole"
I firmly believe that between 2500 and 2700 fps is where you start blood-shooting a bucket of meat.

I think it has been shown that the .358 certainly doesn't shine as bright as a lot of more modern cartridges because of its lacking the balance of power, range and flat shooting that some of the smaller bore, more balanced cartridges can handle. I do think it shines as a black bear gun as I believe it is very suited to that task in that most black bears on the east coast are shot inside 100 yards anyway...

As an aside, this is the rifle that is being bored out by JES. I am very excited to get to work on the stock. I need another rifle project like I need a hole in the head (the silk purse from a sows ear project .458 WM isn't done yet) but I can't help myself from tinkering sometimes. when it comes back from JES it I am going to install iron sights and a barrel band sling swivel.

 

[ChrisG]

So,
We can be at this all night (century?) I'd say what you have identified are differences, I have a hard time swallowing that any of that is superiority. I agree with the classic comment, but that is truly an individual opinion.

The only thing I don't buy is the idea of the tapered case. Of course, empirically, it provides superior feeding, but is it enough to matter? Literally millions of head of game have been taken with a 308 case and profile, what percentage of them had feeding issues? Far less that 1 I'd bet heavy money on.

How about we agree that they are both fantastic, well proven cartridges, or as USOG would say "excellent!"

Agreed. I would say there are no flies on either.

 

[Philip Glass]

From the perspective of hunting Africa, which is why we are all here, I personally see little use for anything between the .30cal magnums and a .375. That is not to say there are not other useful calibers in between. There certainly are. My point is that if it is your dream to hunt Africa again and again It would be advisable to get really used to a .375 and shoot it regularly.
Merry Christmas,
Philip

 

[freefall]

if I can't kill it with my .338, I want a .450 nitro.

 

[Red Leg]

if I can't kill it with my .338, I want a .450 nitro.

I used a .338 on a PG/leopard hunt. Worked great. Have subsequently used a .375 on every other trip but one. Those hunts included several buffalo and a lot of PG. It worked better. That doesn't mean that the .338 (or .318 WR) aren't great designs. But for Africa, I have to admit a .375 is a nearly perfect choice.

 

[noyb72]

I used a .338 on a PG/leopard hunt. Worked great. Have subsequently used a .375 on every other trip but one. Those hunts included several buffalo and a lot of PG. It worked better. That doesn't mean that the .338 (or .318 WR) aren't great designs. But for Africa, I have to admit a .375 is a nearly perfect choice.

I have read this a lot and I don't doubt it because of the SMEs on here, but I have to tell you that it seems odd that it is advocated to shoot a poodle with an anti-tank missile?

Just seems odd.

 

[nomspc]

If you’re going to hunt PG in buffalo (or other DG) country, it’s not a bad idea to be able to defend yourself. Like my friend who carries a .375 while deer hunting on Kodiak Island. This last trip to Africa, my hunting partner and I each carried one rifle, one scope, one load for a variety of PG and buffalo. For me, this is the way to go.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I think it has been shown that the .358 certainly doesn't shine as bright as a lot of more modern cartridges because of its lacking the balance of power, range and flat shooting that some of the smaller bore, more balanced cartridges can handle. I do think it shines as a black bear gun as I believe it is very suited to that task in that most black bears on the east coast are shot inside 100 yards anyway...

As an aside, this is the rifle that is being bored out by JES. I am very excited to get to work on the stock. I need another rifle project like I need a hole in the head (the silk purse from a sows ear project .458 WM isn't done yet) but I can't help myself from tinkering sometimes. when it comes back from JES it I am going to install iron sights and a barrel band sling swivel.
View attachment 443402

@ChrisG
I think you are under estimating the little 358. The 35 rem is a good black bear round and the 358 has a lot More to offer than that. Me thinks once you start playing with it you will be surprised.
Bob

 

[ChrisG]

@ChrisG
I think you are under estimating the little 358. The 35 rem is a good black bear round and the 358 has a lot More to offer than that. Me thinks once you start playing with it you will be surprised.
Bob

I played with it for a couple months when I had my ruger american predator .358. It was actually incredibly accurate, turning in groups of around an inch with old round nose 200 grain hornady interlocks (got 300 of them on gunbroker for a steal). This new rifle is already glass bedded and JES reboring it means it will have a brand new bore as well. Popular or not I still really like it. Something in me wants to root for the underdog.

 

[Rick HOlbert]

I had considered getting a 6mm ruger No.1 bored out to .35 whelen (sorry @Bob Nelson 35Whelen), but I cant get past the .358 Win. There is just something I really like about. Small powder charges, low recoil and hammer-down power in a small light package.

So I bought a beautiful set trigger mauser 98 in .243 that will be rebored by JES to .358, barrel shortened to 22" and thenstock reshaped and checkered to an english style sporting rifle.

But it begs the question, why isnt the .358 more popular? It is such a sweet middle of the road caliber for everything in the lower 48 inside of 300 yards. A short barrel has little effect on its mu,zzle velocity and it is .35 cal so it would hit a little harder than the 30's and 33's in its power bracket. I would venture that in Africa, with a good bullet, it would cover all the bases except dangerous game within its range limitations. But lets be real here, not many hunters take game beyond 300 yards and sighted for 200 yards, a .358 with a 225 grain accubond only drops another 11" at 300, while still carrying more than 1,600 ft-lbs. Not a sluff off by any measure.

I think it has been unfairly relegated to near obsolete status, when in fact it really is aa great, game getting round.

Thought?

Well, back in the day what passed as gun scribes labeled the .358 Win as a brush cartridge and having horrible recoil. They killed the round coming out of the gate. COW BISCUITS!! I've been shooting/loading the .358 for years. With modern load data it preforms beyond what the paper figures say it should. Using data from the Speer #13 manual, with a 180grn pill you can equal factory 30-06 velocity. As Paco Kelly said, has anyone ever called a 30-06 a brush cartridge? Doesn't recoil any more than a 06 with the same weight bullet. I've used it in Africa on game up to 700-800lbs on the hoof with excellent terminal performance. Star Line offers new brass for it. Funny thing is, the .358 is having a resurgence in popularity of late. For a short action bolt gun I am a die hard fan of the round and highly recommend it.

 

[noyb72]

Well, back in the day what passed as gun scribes labeled the .358 Win as a brush cartridge and having horrible recoil. They killed the round coming out of the gate. COW BISCUITS!! I've been shooting/loading the .358 for years. With modern load data it preforms beyond what the paper figures say it should. Using data from the Speer #13 manual, with a 180grn pill you can equal factory 30-06 velocity. As Paco Kelly said, has anyone ever called a 30-06 a brush cartridge? Doesn't recoil any more than a 06 with the same weight bullet. I've used it in Africa on game up to 700-800lbs on the hoof with excellent terminal performance. Star Line offers new brass for it. Funny thing is, the .358 is having a resurgence in popularity of late. For a short action bolt gun I am a die hard fan of the round and highly recommend it.

Looking at Nosler and similar weight bullets, you are better off from a trajectory standpoint with the 358, BC of the partition .351 to .450. Comparing similar SDs you get .410 for 30-06 165 vs .450 of the 225 grain 358. Of course, the 165 30-06 is screaming along about 600 fps faster, but that doesn't mean the 358 is a slouch. If you are hell bent on a heavy bullet, I'm inclined to give the nod to the 358, and I am a died in the wool 30-06 guy. Depending on your target size, the 358 225 partition can have a MPBR of 225+ yards and over 1700#s of energy at 300. As I understand it, most PHs won't allow a shot further than that, what else do you want?