Why no love for the .358 Win?

[ChrisG]

I have a buddy up here in Alaska that had one built - I don't remember the specifics beyond it being a bolt gun (me being a lever guy). He has killed several very nice large bull moose with it, without a hiccup; he likes it a lot. I'd be delighted to own one someday in a Winchester 88, but that ship may be sailing with what they cost these days.

If you have the money, you can always have someone make one. A good machinist can make a model 88 action, then stock it and barrel it. $$$$$ though.

 

[7x57Joe]

I have a buddy up here in Alaska that had one built - I don't remember the specifics beyond it being a bolt gun (me being a lever guy). He has killed several very nice large bull moose with it, without a hiccup; he likes it a lot. I'd be delighted to own one someday in a Winchester 88, but that ship may be sailing with what they cost these days.

Buy a .243 and send it to Jes for a rebore to .358. Last time I checked his services were less than $300 and a week turn around time. I have a friend who has used him several times and says his work is great.

 

[Red Leg]

Yeah that makes sense, as one of its first rifles was the model 88 winchester which was a levergun. In a scoped bolt gun, it is all of a 250-300 yard cartridge by anyone's reckoning. Especially when you combine it with a really good bullet.

I personally am very tired of the would-be-sniper garbage being peddled by almost all of the major rifle manufacturers today. Inevitable portrayals are always a "hunter" in quasi-tactical hunting gear overlooking a canyon in the prone position, pointing the rifle to some poor, unsuspecting animal, 5 canyons away. Success rate on actual field shots like that has to be less than 20%. Absolutely stupid, But it is peddled as "the way you hunt" by some call-of-duty wannabe marketing guys. Give me a .358 any day and I will get withing 300 yards, or enjoy the stalk potentially miss an opportunity to shoot.

I wouldn't get too carried away with the range potential of the typical .358 load. Assuming you will load to near max safe pressure, you might get 2500 fps out of a 200 gr bullet? That theoretically gives you a MPBR of 237 yards. However, and I think it is a big however, because of the 200 gr bullet's SD (.236), you aren't going to get great penetration along the second half of that trajectory for all the bang and boom at the muzzle.

Again, I think it is a fine nostalgia loading for deer or even elk within 200 yards. I like nostalgia. One of my favorites is the .318 Westley Richards and its 250 gr traditional loading. However, that bullet (a .33 class) has a SD of .328 and will bore through most things end to end.

 

[curtism1234]

I regret not buying a BLR in 358; instead I have a 308. After using the 308 for 7 years now, I would have liked the additional knock down power on shoulder shots. The lack of factory ammo is what concerned me most, but I think that is now unfounded with several small reputable companies that specialize in custom loading for a very fair price.

I think the lack of popularity is twofold

1. If you are going to have 1 rifle (as was popular back in the day), you are going to want to be able to shoot 300-400 yards. I just don't think the 358 gets you there in quite the same way the 270, 308, 7mm rem mag, or 30-06 does.

2. If you don't have a need for a long range rifle (which to me anything over 200 yards is long range), the 358 works great. (of course it can shoot well past 200 yards). However, why have a bolt action (primarily) rifle for short range? The lever actions and remington pumps/semiauto are arguably better choices --- and they were immensely popular in their day.

I think the slow imminent death of the 338 federal goes to show that people do not want to go over 30 cal in a standard short action.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I had considered getting a 6mm ruger No.1 bored out to .35 whelen (sorry @Bob Nelson 35Whelen), but I cant get past the .358 Win. There is just something I really like about. Small powder charges, low recoil and hammer-down power in a small light package.

So I bought a beautiful set trigger mauser 98 in .243 that will be rebored by JES to .358, barrel shortened to 22" and thenstock reshaped and checkered to an english style sporting rifle.

But it begs the question, why isnt the .358 more popular? It is such a sweet middle of the road caliber for everything in the lower 48 inside of 300 yards. A short barrel has little effect on its mu,zzle velocity and it is .35 cal so it would hit a little harder than the 30's and 33's in its power bracket. I would venture that in Africa, with a good bullet, it would cover all the bases except dangerous game within its range limitations. But lets be real here, not many hunters take game beyond 300 yards and sighted for 200 yards, a .358 with a 225 grain accubond only drops another 11" at 300, while still carrying more than 1,600 ft-lbs. Not a sluff off by any measure.

I think it has been unfairly relegated to near obsolete status, when in fact it really is aa great, game getting round.

Thought?

@ChrisG
The 358 Winchester ( baby Whelen) is a great little round that gunwriters crippled at birth by calling it a great SHORT RANGE BRUSH GUN. If they got out from behind their typewriter and actually used it they would find a different story. A 225gn Sierra game king is a great bullet in it due to its short length allowing more powder to be used in it.
Paper balistics don't tell the full story of the 358 as it kills out of all proportions to its small size. Those 35 call bullets put a lot of hurt on game and the little 358 doesn't need expensive bonded bullets to do the job.
You won't find may 358s on the used gun racks as those that have them know how well it works and tend to hang onto them.
Congrats on your choice and I hope you get a lot of enjoyment out of your new toy.
Welcome to the 35 club mate.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I love my little 358 win in a Rem M7 and the 356 as well in a trim little M94 BB with aperture sight.

Even though I love them …. They don’t kill much better then a 308/7mm08, especially with Barnes or other premium bullets. The recoil is substantially more, doesn’t shoot as flat and it’s hard to find ammo.

If your not a rifle looney …. They just don’t offer much now that we have really really good .284 and .308 bullets.

PS the 338 Federal is my actual favorite in this class and it’s not doing that well either.

@Rell
Why waste money on Barnes or other premium bullet in the 358 when a standard cup and core will do a better job because of the lower velocities.
Use a 225gn Sierra and you notice a big difference, even a nice 200gn Hornady spire point or in the premium range a 225gn Woodleigh RNSP.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I love my 358 win.

Try some A 2520 powder Fed 215 primers with 250 gr Hornady bullets
(Old Round Nose if you can find them) in Thin Norma brass, or W-W is next.

Do not make cases from 308 G I. too heavy.

Puts it right in the 35 Whelen class, and it flattens Deer ..

@Terry Blauwkamp
Mate it don't matter what powder or primer you use in the 358 you will never get the 2,700fps the Whelen will give you with 250s
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Its a great hunting cartridge but it doesn't look or sound sexy. I like it.

@Joker12
I definitely don't look or sound sexy either but I do like my 35s. @Red Leg points out that the 225 grainers don't have a good sd or velocity and may not penetrate well on some shots but a hunter will try and wait for a better shot and a lot of dead big game will disagree it's not much use for anything bigger than white tail deer.
A 250gr in the 358 may not be quick but it hits hard and drives deep as well as expands well within its 200 yard range. I would venture to say that most game is shot within that distance in the real world.
Bob.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Go with the 338 federal. It’s amazing how it kills and the bullet selection is incredible. I have used it on several plains game including eland and kudu. Elk and mule deer. It’s an amazing cartridge.

@Mountaineer
As good as the 338 federal is the majority of the projectiles made in 338 are designed for the magnums.
To the best of my knowledge Woodleigh is the only company that makes 338 cal projectiles specifically for the federals velocity.
Bob

 

[crs]

Timing!
My first centerfire rifle was my 1953 Winchester M70 Featherweight in .308 WCF.
My second one was M1892 .357 Magnum.
By the time that a larger bore, higher powered rifle came along, it was a Ruger 77 in .338 Win Mag which has served me well here in the USA and in Africa. Next step up was a Winchester 1895TD in .405 WCF and an 1886 Winchester TD in .458 2.4. The latter two have been proven in Africa and Texas and provide all the big bore power I need anywhere.

But, thanks for asking.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I wouldn't get too carried away with the range potential of the typical .358 load. Assuming you will load to near max safe pressure, you might get 2500 fps out of a 200 gr bullet? That theoretically gives you a MPBR of 237 yards. However, and I think it is a big however, because of the 200 gr bullet's SD (.236), you aren't going to get great penetration along the second half of that trajectory for all the bang and boom at the muzzle.

Again, I think it is a fine nostalgia loading for deer or even elk within 200 yards. I like nostalgia. One of my favorites is the .318 Westley Richards and its 250 gr traditional loading. However, that bullet (a .33 class) has a SD of .328 and will bore through most things end to end.

@Red Leg
One of the original loads in the 350 rem mag was a 200gr coreloct.
This projectile was beefed up by Remington for use at the higher velocities and was designed for moose sized game. They may be harder to find nowdays but they are still available.

Bob

 

[Red Leg]

@ChrisG
The 358 Winchester ( baby Whelen) is a great little round that gunwriters crippled at birth by calling it a great SHORT RANGE BRUSH GUN. If they got out from behind their typewriter and actually used it they would find a different story. A 225gn Sierra game king is a great bullet in it due to its short length allowing more powder to be used in it.
Paper balistics don't tell the full story of the 358 as it kills out of all proportions to its small size. Those 35 call bullets put a lot of hurt on game and the little 358 doesn't need expensive bonded bullets to do the job.
You won't find may 358s on the used gun racks as those that have them know how well it works and tend to hang onto them.
Congrats on your choice and I hope you get a lot of enjoyment out of your new toy.
Welcome to the 35 club mate.
Bob

I will agree that an effective way to deal with those pesky paper ballistics is to simply ignore them. It tends to make for a discussion built around circumstantial observation, but that is always more interesting than simple comparative facts. For instance, my personal circumstantial conclusion of why so few .358's appear in gun racks is that it was indeed hugely unpopular and relatively few were made or sold.

As I said, it will indeed kill things within its range limitations. But it isn't a Whelen. If I had a choice of shooting anything with either a 180 gr 30-06 or the .358, the '06 wins hands down. Carrying the rifle, another very subjective set, is a different matter. A 99 in .358 is a wonderful little rifle to carry up a mountain through the thick stuff. But it just seems a particularly odd choice for a bolt action when in the same package one can have any of several more effective options - many just as classic.

 

[ChrisG]

Buy a .243 and send it to Jes for a rebore to .358. Last time I checked his services were less than $300 and a week turn around time. I have a friend who has used him several times and says his work is great.

I just got off the phone with them a few hours ago. $275 for a full rebore of my mauser .243, cut the barrel and recrown at 22". He's a really nice guy.

 

[ChrisG]

I will agree that an effective way to deal with those pesky paper ballistics is to simply ignore them. It tends to make for a discussion built around circumstantial observation, but that is always more interesting than simple comparative facts. For instance, my personal circumstantial conclusion of why so few .358's appear in gun racks is that it was indeed hugely unpopular and relatively few were made or sold.

As I said, it will indeed kill things within its range limitations. But it isn't a Whelen. If I had a choice of shooting anything with either a 180 gr 30-06 or the .358, the '06 wins hands down. Carrying the rifle, another very subjective set, is a different matter. A 99 in .358 is a wonderful little rifle to carry up a mountain through the thick stuff. But it just seems a particularly odd choice for a bolt action when in the same package one can have any of several more effective options - many just as classic.

Right, but by that metric there's always a more effective option right? 7lb 300 win mags are fairly common, so why have a .30-06 when a .300 is available, and why use that when a .338 is available with just a bit more weight. Just another perspective. If I need a more effective gun, I can always reach for my .375. I can't tell anyone why I really like the .358. Maybe its the capability to easily shoot cast bullets from it or the relatively lumbering heavy fat bullet it shoots from shorter barrels with very little powder applied... If I was ultra practical, I would have a .22, a .30-06, and a .375 and be done with hunting rifles.... they would cover the gamut of what I could possibly want to hunt the world over. I kind of like the fact that the .358 puts me at a bit of a disadvantage. As to why a bolt gun... thats simple. There is no other repeating firearm in my mind that can match it for looks and strength, with the exception of the Winchester 1895.

 

[nomspc]

I wouldn't get too carried away with the range potential of the typical .358 load. Assuming you will load to near max safe pressure, you might get 2500 fps out of a 200 gr bullet? That theoretically gives you a MPBR of 237 yards. However, and I think it is a big however, because of the 200 gr bullet's SD (.236), you aren't going to get great penetration along the second half of that trajectory for all the bang and boom at the muzzle.

Again, I think it is a fine nostalgia loading for deer or even elk within 200 yards. I like nostalgia. One of my favorites is the .318 Westley Richards and its 250 gr traditional loading. However, that bullet (a .33 class) has a SD of .328 and will bore through most things end to end.

This is it right here. I had a Ruger M77 .358 Win, 20” barrel, did a great job on New England whitetail. Every year, Winchester did a run of the 200 gr Silvertip. Once I looked carefully at the ballistics, though, I sold the rifle and used .308’s for deer hunting.

 

[nomspc]

Right, but by that metric there's always a more effective option right? 7lb 300 win mags are fairly common, so why have a .30-06 when a .300 is available, and why use that when a .338 is available with just a bit more weight. Just another perspective. If I need a more effective gun, I can always reach for my .375. I can't tell anyone why I really like the .358. Maybe its the capability to easily shoot cast bullets from it or the relatively lumbering heavy fat bullet it shoots from shorter barrels with very little powder applied... If I was ultra practical, I would have a .22, a .30-06, and a .375 and be done with hunting rifles.... they would cover the gamut of what I could possibly want to hunt the world over. I kind of like the fact that the .358 puts me at a bit of a disadvantage. As to why a bolt gun... thats simple. There is no other repeating firearm in my mind that can match it for looks and strength, with the exception of the Winchester 1895.

I get it. Over the last 10 years, I’ve used 3 calibers hunting North America: .308, .300WM and 9.3X62. This from a guy whose “favorite” rifle for 20 years was a .30-06, and who always answered the “one rifle” question with, “.30-06”.

 

[Red Leg]

Right, but by that metric there's always a more effective option right? 7lb 300 win mags are fairly common, so why have a .30-06 when a .300 is available, and why use that when a .338 is available with just a bit more weight. Just another perspective. If I need a more effective gun, I can always reach for my .375. I can't tell anyone why I really like the .358. Maybe its the capability to easily shoot cast bullets from it or the relatively lumbering heavy fat bullet it shoots from shorter barrels with very little powder applied... If I was ultra practical, I would have a .22, a .30-06, and a .375 and be done with hunting rifles.... they would cover the gamut of what I could possibly want to hunt the world over. I kind of like the fact that the .358 puts me at a bit of a disadvantage. As to why a bolt gun... thats simple. There is no other repeating firearm in my mind that can match it for looks and strength, with the exception of the Winchester 1895.

In your original post you asked why the round isn't more popular. I gave you my opinion why. You also suggested that it was a fine rifle for anything inside 300 yards. I gave you my reasons why 300 yards is somewhat wildly optimistic for the .358. You also suggested that it would do well on PG. I offered my concerns about the standard loadings' SD with respect to breaking bones and driving deep enough on animals larger than whitetail. I think that is particularly true of PG where we typically aim a bit farther forward than deer species.

Now, if you simply want to have and use it in spite of its obvious issues, that is fine. If you want a bolt action so configured that is also fine. It would not be a combination that would interest me, but it is your investment. However, you did ask the forum for comment.

Stateside, particularly where you live, that combination will be great on deer or black bear inside 200 yards. You will rarely if ever get an opportunity outside that range envelope. It would not be a rifle that I would take mule deer hunting.

I should also note, that I never said bigger and faster were better. For instance there is nothing that you could hunt with your .358 that I wouldn't be far more confident hunting with a 7x57 with a 170 gr bullet. The bolt action chambered in that caliber will be just as light, just as handy, just as classic, and exhibit a great deal less sturm und drang while accomplishing more. It is all about the proper balance of velocity, weight, frontal diameter, and sectional density. In my opinion, the .358 creates a negative mismatch with respect to several of those characteristics.

 

[noyb72]

One of the things that attracts me to the 358 (especially in the 88 Win) is the smaller case than the Whelan when considering cast bullets. Todays hard cast powder coated bullets can do 2400fps with ease, so 225-250 is a good bullet that you won't be able to push to fast.

If someone can see the difference in performance of sectional density between .27 (.308/180) and .25 (.358 / 225,) then they are better than me; and anyone who questions the ability of a .308/180 bullet at 2400 fps or so needs to read a few history books.

When using cast, or traditional cup and core bullets the 358 will work just as well as anything else on the NATO case and has a very good chance of leaving a much better blood trail.

Looking at the traditional, African, bushveld rifle I think the 358 has a very good argument for winning.

 

[ChrisG]

In your original post you asked why the round isn't more popular. I gave you my opinion why. You also suggested that it was a fine rifle for anything inside 300 yards. I gave you my reasons why 300 yards is somewhat wildly optimistic for the .358. You also suggested that it would do well on PG. I offered my concerns about the standard loadings' SD with respect to breaking bones and driving deep enough on animals larger than whitetail. I think that is particularly true of PG where we typically aim a bit farther forward than deer species.

Now, if you simply want to have and use it in spite of its obvious issues, that is fine. If you want a bolt action so configured that is also fine. It would not be a combination that would interest me, but it is your investment. However, you did ask the forum for comment.

Stateside, particularly where you live, that combination will be great on deer or black bear inside 200 yards. You will rarely if ever get an opportunity outside that range envelope. It would not be a rifle that I would take mule deer hunting.

I should also note, that I never said bigger and faster were better. For instance there is nothing that you could hunt with your .358 that I wouldn't be far more confident hunting with a 7x57 with a 170 gr bullet. The bolt action chambered in that caliber will be just as light, just as handy, just as classic, and exhibit a great deal less sturm und drang while accomplishing more. It is all about the proper balance of velocity, weight, frontal diameter, and sectional density. In my opinion, the .358 creates a negative mismatch with respect to several of those characteristics.

I appreciate the insight. It is funny how americans gravitate to certain rounds. While the 7x57 is certainly more popular here in the states than the .358, its popularity pales compared to something like the 7mm-08, despite the fact that it (the 7x57) is superior in almost every way.

 

[noyb72]

I appreciate the insight. It is funny how americans gravitate to certain rounds. While the 7x57 is certainly more popular here in the states than the .358, its popularity pales compared to something like the 7mm-08, despite the fact that it (the 7x57) is superior in almost every way.

So, superiority is an interesting concept, I'm wondering what exactly you find superior? I only ask because, at least in the US, the cartridges are close enough to ballistic twins that it isn't worth conversing about, there are more rifles available, significantly more loads available, and reloading components are exponentially easier to find.

I have shot 308, 7x57 and 8mm Mauser very fast in hot desserts, which often seems to be an argument detracting from the 308 case, and I have never had any issue with any of them as far as feeding or pressures. I'm just wondering what is superior about the round?