Why no love for the .358 Win?

[Red Leg]

Well, back in the day what passed as gun scribes labeled the .358 Win as a brush cartridge and having horrible recoil. They killed the round coming out of the gate. COW BISCUITS!! I've been shooting/loading the .358 for years. With modern load data it preforms beyond what the paper figures say it should. Using data from the Speer #13 manual, with a 180grn pill you can equal factory 30-06 velocity. As Paco Kelly said, has anyone ever called a 30-06 a brush cartridge? Doesn't recoil any more than a 06 with the same weight bullet. I've used it in Africa on game up to 700-800lbs on the hoof with excellent terminal performance. Star Line offers new brass for it. Funny thing is, the .358 is having a resurgence in popularity of late. For a short action bolt gun I am a die hard fan of the round and highly recommend it.

The 180 gr .358 has an SD of .225. That seems rather like shooting a salad plate at something. Glad it worked out. I prefer a tad more penetration potential.

 

[lwaters]

I load my 358 BLR with 225gr. Noslers at over 2300fps

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Looking at Nosler and similar weight bullets, you are better off from a trajectory standpoint with the 358, BC of the partition .351 to .450. Comparing similar SDs you get .410 for 30-06 165 vs .450 of the 225 grain 358. Of course, the 165 30-06 is screaming along about 600 fps faster, but that doesn't mean the 358 is a slouch. If you are hell bent on a heavy bullet, I'm inclined to give the nod to the 358, and I am a died in the wool 30-06 guy. Depending on your target size, the 358 225 partition can have a MPBR of 225+ yards and over 1700#s of energy at 300. As I understand it, most PHs won't allow a shot further than that, what else do you want?

@noby72
The 225gn accubond out of my Whelen is doing 2,900fps so if the 165 is going 600fps faster you would need one he'll of a magnum.
The ought six with a 165 will do the same speed as the Whelen with a healthy dose of Re17.
2,900fps with the Whelen turns it into an entirely different beast with close to from memory 2,000 fpe at 400 yards.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I load my 358 BLR with 225gr. Noslers at over 2300fps

@Iwaters
You should be able to get 2,500 plus with the 225gn Sierra game king.
Bob

 

[264]

Mines a Winchester push feed featherweight Ive got a lot nicer rifles but the 358 is easy to reach for. About perfect for pigs. Mine gets plenty of use with185-200 and 250 gr projectiles. I liked the 200 hornadys then dropped down to the 180 ACP unfortunate they are not produced anymore. Would like to try the atomic range in 35 cal. Ive got a good supply of 185's from ACP.
Cal produces way above its size.
Heres a few pics of game taken with 358.
Cheers Mick

scrubber 185 gr ACP's

young buff

 

[ChrisG]

Mines a Winchester push feed featherweight Ive got a lot nicer rifles but the 358 is easy to reach for. About perfect for pigs. Mine gets plenty of use with185-200 and 250 gr projectiles. I liked the 200 hornadys then dropped down to the 180 ACP unfortunate they are not produced anymore. Would like to try the atomic range in 35 cal. Ive got a good supply of 185's from ACP.
Cal produces way above its size.
Heres a few pics of game taken with 358.
Cheers Mick
View attachment 443534View attachment 443536
scrubber 185 gr ACP's
View attachment 443535
young buff
View attachment 443537

Nice! How heavy are those buff?

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Nice! How heavy are those buff?

@ChrisG
I think @264 Mick has opened your eyes as to what the little 358 can do.
Bob

 

[7x57Joe]

Mines a Winchester push feed featherweight Ive got a lot nicer rifles but the 358 is easy to reach for. About perfect for pigs. Mine gets plenty of use with185-200 and 250 gr projectiles. I liked the 200 hornadys then dropped down to the 180 ACP unfortunate they are not produced anymore. Would like to try the atomic range in 35 cal. Ive got a good supply of 185's from ACP.
Cal produces way above its size.
Heres a few pics of game taken with 358.
Cheers Mick
View attachment 443534View attachment 443536
scrubber 185 gr ACP's
View attachment 443535
young buff
View attachment 443537

Mick, looks as if we have similar tastes in rifles. Here is my M.70 Featherweight .358.

 

[264]

Mick, looks as if we have similar tastes in rifles. Here is my M.70 Featherweight .358.

View attachment 443656

Very nice. Great feel to the 80's featherweight.
Very under rated calibre.
Young bulls would weigh about 500-to 550kg's inland. Mature bulls inland go around 750kgs live. Floodplain bulls up to 1100kg's.
Heres a couple more pics, cheers Mick
358 185 ACP 7m

225 hydro drop on spot

 

[ChrisG]

Very nice. Great feel to the 80's featherweight.
Very under rated calibre.
Young bulls would weigh about 500-to 550kg's inland. Mature bulls inland go around 750kgs live. Floodplain bulls up to 1100kg's.
Heres a couple more pics, cheers Mick
358 185 ACP 7m

225 hydro drop on spot

Wow that is a heavy animal. If I recall, they can also be pretty aggressive too? The .358 has got some punch! Nice shooting! Did you find penetration lacking on any of those?

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Very nice. Great feel to the 80's featherweight.
Very under rated calibre.
Young bulls would weigh about 500-to 550kg's inland. Mature bulls inland go around 750kgs live. Floodplain bulls up to 1100kg's.
Heres a couple more pics, cheers Mick
358 185 ACP 7m
View attachment 443658
225 hydro drop on spot
View attachment 443657

@264
And who said the 358 was a while caliber that was not much use for anything bigger than whitetail deer.
I thinks it may have been @Red Leg but I may be wrong as well.
Have you tried any of Cameron's Atomic29 projectiles Mick. Ted Mitchell swears by them. I have some 200gr to try .
The little 358 has always been frowned on as not much use for bigger game and only useful for short ranges. I say bullshit. Loaded with the right projectiles to suit the game it does a stellar job.
Bob

 

[264]

Wow that is a heavy animal. If I recall, they can also be pretty aggressive too? The .358 has got some punch! Nice shooting! Did you find penetration lacking on any of those?

The ACP's penetrate well being all copper. The hydros are a very deep penetrators. Side on shots you have to be careful of whats behind so as not to wound another animal.
Haven't tried the atomic projectiles yet, I've got a good stock of the 185, ACP's left. So won't be a while before I use them.
young bulls 185gr ACPs

recovered 1185gr ACP

haemophradite

 

[Red Leg]

@264
And who said the 358 was a while caliber that was not much use for anything bigger than whitetail deer.
I thinks it may have been @Red Leg but I may be wrong as well.
Have you tried any of Cameron's Atomic29 projectiles Mick. Ted Mitchell swears by them. I have some 200gr to try .
The little 358 has always been frowned on as not much use for bigger game and only useful for short ranges. I say bullshit. Loaded with the right projectiles to suit the game it does a stellar job.
Bob

Just glad no wounded game lost and everyone has been safe. The .358 is a great choice for pigs. It would not be my first (or tenth) option for a buffalo on either continent.

Trying to count - how many shots did that one buff take? Nice shooting though.

 

[264]

Just glad no wounded game lost and everyone has been safe. The .358 is a great choice for pigs. It would not be my first (or tenth) option for a buffalo on either continent.

Trying to count - how many shots did that one buff take? Nice shooting though.

Not my first choice either. Mostly hunting for pigs with a chance of a buff. It works with a bit more care taken on shot placement If I have time a hydro is used for the first shot.
All the buff above two shots each, even the drop on the spot shots, second insurance on the ground shot.
Great little cartridge, hope to put a sambar on the deck with it this season.
Found some 200gr silver tips (80's), should be perfect for sambar.
Cheers Mick

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The ACP's penetrate well being all copper. The hydros are a very deep penetrators. Side on shots you have to be careful of whats behind so as not to wound another animal.
Haven't tried the atomic projectiles yet, I've got a good stock of the 185, ACP's left. So won't be a while before I use them.
young bulls 185gr ACPs
View attachment 443659
recovered 1185gr ACP
View attachment 443662
View attachment 443661
haemophradite
View attachment 443660

@264
He had a good product in the ACPs its a pity it fell apart.. My son used Outer Edge in Namibia as well as accubond and found them good.
Bob

 

[Rick HOlbert]

The 180 gr .358 has an SD of .225. That seems rather like shooting a salad plate at something. Glad it worked out. I prefer a tad more penetration potential.

Hi there Redleg. Actually when I used my 358 in Africa I was shooting a 225grn TSX at a chronographed 2520fps. At 115 yards that bullet broke both shoulders and the spine on a rather big Kudu. I reserve the 180's for deer size game. I've since switched to 225grn Swift A-Frames.

 

[ChrisG]

I understand the desire for penetration. But the sectional density of .300 was established ( I believe) for dangerous game. After all, the most popular loads for the .30 cals are the 150,165 and 180 with the 180 being reserved for larger game over 600 lbs (Moose, Bull Elk, etc.). In fact, I would guess, of the calibers less than .375, none of the most common bullets have a sectional density of .300. A .358 158 grain bullet was used successfully in the 1930s out of a .357 magnum to take much larger game than we would attempt today with it. A 180 grain bullet, constructed properly would likely still kill even a large black bear from nearly any angle (especially of the TSX variety).

I do concede that the .358 is a niche cartridge, but I wouldn't relegate it to throwing bullets as penetrative as a playdough teacup either. I personally think with good bullets in the 200-225 grain class, it competes rather favorably with a lot of other cartridges. I think it was a solution looking for a problem when it was introduced (Like pretty much all new cartridges introduced in the past 30 years). But there are enough of us to keep it alive. Even if we are relegated to running .308 brass into our .358 dies...

 

[noyb72]

penetrative as a playdough teacup, that there is funny, I don't care who you are.

The 358 is Well on its way to 80 years old, and was made to put a big bore into a sweet lever action and (I suspect) make a cartridge that beats the 35 Remington while being on a brand new platform that was common with 2 other cartridges (243 and 308.)

 

[Rick HOlbert]

I understand the desire for penetration. But the sectional density of .300 was established ( I believe) for dangerous game. After all, the most popular loads for the .30 cals are the 150,165 and 180 with the 180 being reserved for larger game over 600 lbs (Moose, Bull Elk, etc.). In fact, I would guess, of the calibers less than .375, none of the most common bullets have a sectional density of .300. A .358 158 grain bullet was used successfully in the 1930s out of a .357 magnum to take much larger game than we would attempt today with it. A 180 grain bullet, constructed properly would likely still kill even a large black bear from nearly any angle (especially of the TSX variety).

I do concede that the .358 is a niche cartridge, but I wouldn't relegate it to throwing bullets as penetrative as a playdough teacup either. I personally think with good bullets in the 200-225 grain class, it competes rather favorably with a lot of other cartridges. I think it was a solution looking for a problem when it was introduced (Like pretty much all new cartridges introduced in the past 30 years). But there are enough of us to keep it alive. Even if we are relegated to running .308 brass into our .358 dies...

Well sir, when Winchester phased out the Model 71 and the .348 cartridge the 358 was intended to replace the 348 as it had more power. Back in the day the 348 was considered big medicine for game up to large bear. Simple fact is, again with modern powders and premium bullets' the .358 preforms a lot better than the paper ballistics says it should. My first choice for big bear? No, but if it was what I had in hand and up close and personnel and loaded with a TSX or Swift A-Frame I'd take the shot. Just me.

 

[noyb72]

Well sir, when Winchester phased out the Model 71 and the .348 cartridge the 358 was intended to replace the 348 as it had more power. Back in the day the 348 was considered big medicine for game up to large bear. Simple fact is, again with modern powders and premium bullets' the .358 preforms a lot better than the paper ballistics says it should. My first choice for big bear? No, but if it was what I had in hand and up close and personnel and loaded with a TSX or Swift A-Frame I'd take the shot. Just me.

They will both shoot 250 grains at 2300+. I don't think anyone can argue with the 348s record on grizzly bear and even the smaller of the coastal browns. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the big Kenai and Kodiaks have been taken with it. That really tells you everything you need to know.