Wanting .458 win mag chronograph results of factory

Discussion in '.375 & Up' started by Nhoro, Apr 7, 2018.

  1. Hoss Delgado

    Hoss Delgado AH Fanatic

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    Based on your ( very sound ) reasoning , l would say .416 Remington. Ooo , l know. A .458 Lott ? I always wanted one of those. Currently my only DG rifle is a .375 HH Magnum anyway
     

  2. flatwater bill

    flatwater bill AH Elite

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    I have no dog in this hunt as I will never shoot an elephant....but I have chronographed many loads in the 458 Win.....my favorite was 70 grains of 3031 giving a 500 grain Hornady 2083 fps on average. 24" bbl. (I think newer powders may give (older) Lott performance levels.)Pressure was mild, as I loaded the cases many times..........good hunting................FWB
     
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  3. Hoss Delgado

    Hoss Delgado AH Fanatic

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    Update. I got some information wrong. Harry Selby never actually replaced his .416 Rigby with a .458 Winchester Model 70 . He merely used the .458 Model 70 for TWO years while his .416 Rigby was being rebarrelled in London by Rigby. And the only reason he chose a .458 Win Mag was because that .458 Win Mag rifle was his Safari Outfit 's spare back up up rifle and rental rifle. Another hunter named Mr. Brian Marsh used the same .458 Win Mag rifle as his back up rifle when he was working in Harry Selby's Safari outfitters because At the time , non citizens on work permits were prohibited from importing rifles in Botswana .
    Source : Man Magnum 2016.
    It is commonly agreed by many professional hunters that the biggest reasons why the .458 Winchester Magnum was ever popular was because of the following reasons :
    1) It came out at a time when Kynoch had just discontinued every single centre fire cartridge , rendering the English big bore doubles ( and the few big bore Magazine rifles at the time , like .404 , .416 and .505 ) essentially useless. The only British cartridge still being produced was the .375 HH Magnum ( because it was non proprietary ) . So the .458 Winchester Magnum was all that was available at the time
    2) Game laws had just recently started stipulating that hunters couldn't use calibers less than .375 HH Magnum for Dangerous game . So , if you factor in the first reason , a Hunter's only choices would be confined to a .375 HH Magnum and a .458 Winchester Magnum. Despite this , MANY hunters like Harry Manners and Wally Johnson stuck with their .375s.
    Wally's son , Walter used to own a .458 Win Mag for a brief time , but swapped it for a .458 Lott after the Lott Came out.
    3) This is a reason that didn't hit me until recently : Back in those days , it was customary that when the client hunter was going home , he would leave his surplus ammo to the Professional Hunter if their weapon calibers were similar. Back in those days ( late 50s to early 70s ) , virtually every American client hunter used to bring a .458 Winchester Magnum rifle and spare ammunition to Africa. So it made sense for some PHs to have a spare .458 Win Mag lying around camp even if they didn't use it .
    Till now , the only famous PHs l know of who actually used a .458 win mag exclusively , are :
    Finn Aagaard ( a Winchester Model 70 and a rebarrelled Westley Richards )
    Mike Cameron ( Winchester Model 70)
    Donnie Jan Bredenkamp ( .458 Mannlicher )
    W Middleton Lofty Stokes ( .458 Mannlicher ).

    A lot of PHs had .458 win Mags but backed them up with heavier double rifles in the era .
    A lot of them had one lying around camp for the client to use but preferred something else themselves.
     

  4. Certus

    Certus AH Veteran

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    So glad I found this thread. I had no idea the .450 Nitro, .450 No.2 Nitro, .470 Nitro, .500/465 nitro, .475 Nitro, .476 nitro and .475 No.2 had all become useless, or been useless from the start. Strange given how popular the 470 is. :sneaky:
     
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  5. Daga Boy

    Daga Boy AH Veteran

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    Yes and no. The .470, like the .458WM is a point blank to close range calibre. The picture changes a bit with lighter monolithic bullets, but that is basically what they are - i.e. close range calibres. This is fine with a double, which is itself a close range weapon, but hunters using bolt action rifles usually have scopes mounted and expect them to be capable of longer shots (Say 100-150m). The .458WM is acceptable if that is all the action can take (standard 30-06 length) and one appreciates its limitations, but it is a bit limiting. The Lott is more versatile and it makes more sense in most actions. Basically it is the "go to" .458 calibre over here at this time and the standard against which other .458's are judged. In fact most people who are using BRNO/CZ .458's have converted them to take bigger cartridges eg .458 Lott, .458 3", etc. Personally, I like the .458 Sabi, but that basically requires a custom rifle as recoil is generally excessive in rifle built for a standard .458WM.
     

  6. 1dirthawker

    1dirthawker AH Enthusiast

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    gentlemen,
    regarding the 458 winchesters relative versatility or usefulness as a weapon. there are thousands of elephants that would appear to show that it worked. does it have limitations? of course, any cartridge does. even the 460 weatherby. Is the 458 lott a better choice? maybe, there seem to be many on this forum that believe so. the 458 win is capable of shooting a 500 gr. bullet at 2150 fps with current powders.

    2150 fps was/is the gold standard for decades of use against the largest game, that is in effect what the 450 nitro (and 450 nitro #2) the 470, 475 nitro's etc. all approximated. is the Lott more versatile? maybe...in foot pounds, but in bullet drop there is no real difference that a shooter in the field would notice.

    i ran some velocities in a ballistic program using 2100 fps for the 458 win and 2300fps for the 458 lott just for fun. i chose a 150 yard zero which is a pretty useful zero distance for a scope sighted rifle.

    458 win 100 yards 150 200
    2100 fps +2.0" 0.0 -5.0"
    ft lb 3735 3250 2815

    458 lott 100 yards 150 200
    2300 fps +1.5" 0.0 -4.0"
    ft lb 4526 3952 3440

    some food for thought. also, all things being equal the lott will kick harder as well. if you are not recoil sensitive, won't matter at all. there was only 1" trajectory difference between the two. would i hesitate to shoot at ANY non dangerous game out to 200 yards? not at all! so within a pretty reasonable distance, at non dangerous game, a 458 win does not take any back seat to the Lott. i suspect most readers on this forum would agree that dangerous game should be shot much closer than that, and the express rifles (which the winchester can now mimic) have done that for decades.
     

  7. Forrest Halley

    Forrest Halley AH Enthusiast

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    If the .458 Win is lagging by 1200 ft+lbs....it takes a backseat to the Lott. Trajectory is irrelevant to the backseat argument. Energy is the relevant quantity there and 1200 ft-lbs is considerable.
     

  8. 1dirthawker

    1dirthawker AH Enthusiast

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    forest,
    my post was not easy to read, but looked different when i posted it. the difference at 100 yards was 800 ft lbs, NOT 1200. narrowing to 600 ft lbs at 200. when using the 2150 fps =3925 ft lbs. so 600 ft lb difference. at 100 yards and 500 ft lbs at 200 yards.

    my point was, for years the express rifles at the same energy levels were considered satisfactory, i suspect the 458 win is too. can one shoot a more powerful gun, of course. my comment was its versatility on non dangerous game, trajectory is NOT irrelevant, because quite simply 3000 ft lbs coupled with a 500 grain bullet is plenty for ANY plains game.

    i'm not arguing that the Lott is more, just, not that much more. and almost anyone will acknowledge that shot placement is everything regardless of energy.

    by the way, i don't own a 458 win, nor do i want one. i'm just trying to be a little objective.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
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  9. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    Not to forget.....

    Terry Irwin (.458 Mannlicher)
    Richard Harland (.458 Mannlicher)

    ;)

    HWL
     

  10. Daga Boy

    Daga Boy AH Veteran

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    What Dirthawker says is correct. My own 500gr .458WM loads are doing 2150 (25" barrel). Most .458WM users I know have switched to 450grn Monometals. These can safely be driven at 2300fps and they will go most of the way through an elephant shot broadside. They also shoot pretty flat.
    I am happy with the .458 for what I do with it - basically back up and as a "defence" weapon in dangerous game territory, but would not recommend it as "go to" for a visiting hunter - this simply as its not very versatile. Quite a few people also find the recoil a bit too much for accurate shooting.
    As to the issue of energy, I think that's a bit of a myth. With the exception of charges (where the ability to stun plays a role) the most important considerations are bullet placement and penetration.
     
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  11. Forrest Halley

    Forrest Halley AH Enthusiast

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    I was not using just your data. I ran some numbers and show the Lott leading by 1000 ft-lbs on the Double Tap loading of the 500gr Woodleigh Weldcore. @2350fps-6131ft-lb vs.
     

  12. Forrest Halley

    Forrest Halley AH Enthusiast

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    Vs. 2150/5132 for the WM.
    I ran numbers for Federal which came out as much as 1600 ft-lbs difference, and also Norma and Nosler, which all showed clear advantage to the Lott. Hornady actually showed the least difference between the two chamberings with approximately 800 ft-lbs difference.
    So IMHO, there is a marked difference. It is essentially the same argument being made by the 10mm crowd saying they are just as good as .41 Magnums when in fact they are two different power levels when properly loaded.
     

  13. Foxi

    Foxi AH Elite

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    "Remember most old time game dept officials only had access to the 458 WM as they where game dept issue and they had no choice but to make do with what they had."

    If it hadn't worked, they'd all be dead by now.
    Your .458 phobia is not to be understood.
    For that I have too much contact with PHs that currently carry the caliber and are satisfied.
    Incl. elephant.

    Next week I bring a few .458 into the Beschussamt (fire office,proof house,official shooting board,I dont know the right translation of this word), because I wanted to measure the gas pressure of my reloaded cartridges and there you should mess also the velocities
    I'll post the result here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
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  14. Wheels

    Wheels AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    After some early ammo hiccups, the WM did it's job.

    For a couple of decades, it served as the largest caliber with readily available ammo.

    No it is not a Lott. Nor is it a Gibbs or Jeffery.

    It is a solid caliber with a moderate kick, that for a generation, was the standard to use when confronting DG.
     
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  15. Daga Boy

    Daga Boy AH Veteran

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    There is no doubt that the Lott is a significantly hotter cartridge, both in factory ammo and with handloads, provided you have access to suitable powders. This makes it more versatile and also more effective. The main disadvantage is that it requires a full magnum length action, and those tend to be pricey. The Lott also belts quite a bit, so you ideally need a heavier rifle.
    If going for magnum action then one should really look at the .450 Rigby, which is a superb round and quite widely used over here. (The Dakota is also lovely , but you are not likely to find ammo in a safari camp)
    The current trend here (and also in Autralia) is toward fatter, more compact cartridges. Examples are the .458 African (.404 case) and the .458 Sabi (500 Jeffrey case). Both of these cartridges exceed Lott performance and both perform very well in the field.
    It is perhaps worth mentioning that PH's and parks officials who hunt/cull elephants regularly all prefer a bullet heavier than 500gr unless its a monolithic. These bullets are typically driven at standard/classic velocities . Penetration is fantastic.
    Some very valuable info on this topic can be found n the Sabi Rifles
     

  16. Foxi

    Foxi AH Elite

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    Most attacking Big Five are shot on the Internet.
    Ask a DG PH in business for more than 15 years, how much attacking big game a guest could really stop ?
    The answer will be sobering.
    No guest stops DG without PH.
    We all fool ourselves, if we think we have his qualities in case of emergency, just because we hold a .500 in our arms.
     
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  17. BenKK

    BenKK AH Elite

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    Another thought that pops into my mind regarding the internet, and why I don’t join-in with being a referee from the comfort of my chair: No matter how I did with today’s buffalo (which was angry and killed with my Mauser .300H&H at fifteen metres), who-the-f___ knows how things might pan-out tomorrow?

    By the way, I would have preferred a bigger rifle today but circumstances dictated otherwise, and the little Super Thirty provided the necessary rapid response.
     

  18. Foxi

    Foxi AH Elite

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    Someone like you,has long since been able to do that of a good PH.
    I would go on buffalo with you any time.
     

  19. Daga Boy

    Daga Boy AH Veteran

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    I half agree with Foxi.
    Unprovoked attacks are very rare; however they do happen from time to time, so one needs to be mindful.
    "Provoked" attacks happen more often.
    Last year alone there were three incidents involving buffaloes that I know of in this neck of the woods. I also know of a couple of lion attacks.
    As to clients/guest hunters being up to stopping a charge - some would probably be able to; others not, but I wouldn't bet on it. In fact I know of several instances in which clients have frozen even though it was not a charge situation - and basically that's the only reason for having a proper heavy rifle.
     

  20. Forrest Halley

    Forrest Halley AH Enthusiast

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    I think there is a lot of truth to this. The rifles are just too expensive to shoot enough to get the proficiency with them to exceed a PH, not that the PH is an ace with his rifle either. They are too expensive to really beat up in a competition type training session. I'd really like to see someone shoot a V drill with a big gun. 18 shots with reloading would make for an expensive time, but it would be a good skill builder for folks with the desire to get more proficient with their rifle.
     

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