Wanting .458 win mag chronograph results of factory

Discussion in '.375 & Up' started by Nhoro, Apr 7, 2018.

  1. Nhoro

    Nhoro AH Member

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    Hi all, has anyone put 458 win mag factory ammo over a chrono ? It would be great if you gave some actual readings with an idea of your setup ie rifle make, barrel length, ammo make and bullet weight. I am mainly interested in solids but please let me know what you know!
     
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  2. matt85

    matt85 AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    i know its not what you asked but have you considered the 458 Lott? you wont have to concern yourself with getting minimum velocities and there really isnt a difference in cost.

    otherwise, i hope someone here can give you what your looking for.

    -matt
     

  3. 375 Ruger Fan

    375 Ruger Fan AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2018
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  4. Nhoro

    Nhoro AH Member

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    Thanks for the replies. My problem is that I can get 458 win mag or 416 rigby. A Lott would be special order in this part of the world and be way more expensive. Loads of people online say that you can handload the win mag to 2150 FPS but I cannot find any actual chrono results for factory ammo.
     

  5. IvW

    IvW AH Elite

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    Just go with the 416 Rigby then and forget the 458 Win.

    You need to be careful what you believe and what not. 2150 fps with 500 gr bullets in hot climates with a Win mag is asking for trouble.

    I do not believe the above velocities with the 500 gr 2150Fps.

    We crhonied some factory ammo many years ago and we could not find any that went over 2000 fps. Modern day ammo may be better but I do not believe so.
     
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  6. Foxi

    Foxi AH Fanatic

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    When you reload 480 gr in a 458 Win Mag?
     
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  7. IvW

    IvW AH Elite

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    Then you are defeating the object. Rather step down in caliber and shoot 450 gr bullets in the 416 Rigby or 404 Jeff.

    If you have a 458 Caliber that cannot shoot a 500 Grain bullet @ minimum of 2100 fps, why on earth are you wanting to buy one? You will just be complicating matters and creating too many issues for yourself.

    Buy an appropriate caliber DG rifle and unfortunately the 458 WM does not make the cut in my book. It is the one caliber I have seen the most issues with in a DG rifle the second place goes to another 458 caliber, the 460 Weatherby! One is way too little the other way too much.
     

  8. PeteG

    PeteG AH Elite

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    I will see if I can get the 458wm chrono’d and send you some data. I have the 416 rigby and would also rather be shooting that than the 458wm. You can put a bit more oomph into a 400gr/450gr 416 but you can’t put more into a 458wm.
    All things considered though, if you can get in the range of 2150fps with a 480gr then you’re on par with a 450NE and for a client that will be more than suitable.
     

  9. HWL

    HWL AH Enthusiast

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  10. Foxi

    Foxi AH Fanatic

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    traveld not so less through Wild- Africa.
    Never heard sad things about the 458 Win.Mag. from the hunters there.
    The only Tony Arino, he is living in the past.
    The effect from the cartridge for 50 years is not to compare as it is today.
    Slowly or not,on DG its doing the job on a wonderful way.
    Foxi
     

  11. Bruce

    Bruce AH Fanatic

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    Ivan,
    Please explain what you infer regarding the 458 WM 500 gr factory loads/ 2150 MV in hot conditions!!
    I am in NO way an expert in this field, but do hunt elephant and buff in hot Zimbabwe and RSA conditions at times.
     

  12. IvW

    IvW AH Elite

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    Tony is the most experienced DG PH that is still hunting. He knows what he is talking about. I second what he said and also use and recommend same calibers as him. He has shot more DG especially elephant than any other living PH or person.

    I would never use a 458 WM for back-up, as for clients there are much better options.

    Why somebody would want to fart ass around with a marginal caliber when you can buy something that will give you better results on a consistent basis is beyond me.

    If you want 450 NE ballistics buy one, it will be much more successful due to low chamber pressure and comes in a double so cannot be compared to a too small straight walled cased cartridge that has never been able to achieve what is was designed to do since it was developed.

    It is crap as a DG cartridge, I would much rather use a 375 H&H, 404 Jeff or 416 Rigby period.
     

  13. IvW

    IvW AH Elite

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    First off I am not Ivan.

    I have yet to find 458 WM factory loads that achieve 2150 fps without chamber pressure issues(granted I am talking a few years back when we chronographed some).

    The case capacity is too small, being also of straight case wall design and and having a belt(which it has to have due to no neck). Now you have a client who has worked up loads or uses some hot factory loads arrive and you go hunting in the valley in october or in northern KZN with high temps and humidity(KZN), bang goes the chambered round and your client has a bat in his hands as he cannot get the empty case to extract. Had this happen on more than one occasion. One rifle had to have a hammer applied to the bolt to get it open.

    Below 2000 fps the penetration on non side brain shots is not reliable enough to reach the brain so if a PH uses such a combination on a first failed shot by a client it may well mean a lost elephant. Same thing for very close shots at elephant in thick jesse.

    No thanks, many better options available even for clients but more so for PH's.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
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  14. Bruce

    Bruce AH Fanatic

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    Sorry for he name mishap.. have no idea where the Ivan came from!!
    Thanks for the clarification.
     

  15. IvW

    IvW AH Elite

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    No worries...

    I think a lot of people(not pointing at you), just look at published ballistics and comment accordingly.

    Trust me that in field experiences will prove that when the 458 WM is compared to either the 458 Lott or 450 Rigby or even any of the same class NE cartridges, you will find that the 458 WM falls far short. I am also not talking about sigle examples where a client made a successful side on shot at a buffalo but rather at stopping DG at different angles, coming or going under obvious less than ideal angles and situations.

    Here I use and am totally in support of Tony Sanchez Arino, the 500 Jeff is the most devastatingly effective cartridge even on elephant under the most dangerous situations.

    Maybe I have just been spoilt by the superb performance of the 500 Jeff cartridge and when comparing this to the 458 WM, it seems that the latter is a peashooter of sorts and I have no interest in risking my clients or my own life with such a inadequate cartridge.
     

  16. Foxi

    Foxi AH Fanatic

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    Logically, there's always one bomb that's more powerful than the other. The only question is whether it's necessary.
    And I need to be able to handle it.

    Arinos experiences with the .458 are based on his Sudan time.
    Guys, that was 50 years ago, when Winchester loaded the wrong powder in a certain amount of time. Yesterday's water.
    I know one of the former managing directors of Wankie/Hangwe.
    He told me "we shot many thousands of elephants in the various parks in Zimbabwe during my 25 years in office.
    All with .375 H+H and .458 win Mag.with PMP ammunition from South Africa.
    There was nothing else to get for us.
    My people were successful and satisfied."
    Another friend, Outfitter and PH in Dete/Zimbabwe has regular shoot out on the elephant skull with the 500gr Sledgehammer bullet with 458 Win.Mag.
    In the elephant countries Zimbabwe and Zambia, where I have my contacts, the simple everyday life for the native DG- hunter looks completely different.Most of them I know have the .458 and the .458 Lot
    And be honest, no African native hunter shoots the 500 Jeffrey in (real-) Africa.
    Only rich tourists.
    Foxi
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
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  17. PaulT

    PaulT AH Fanatic

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    Wow.

    I wonder what Richard Harland would make of some of the comments made on this thread.
     
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  18. IvW

    IvW AH Elite

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    That is so but please do not forget that as stated "There was nothing else to get for us." in other words they had no choice but to use what they had. This includes Richard Harland who I personally know. In his book "Ndlovu" he also does not recommend the 458 WM although he used it for many years culling elephants.

    Lets not forget that these people are professionals and have shot thousands of animals not only hunting but during control/culling work. They all know from many years of experience exactly where to shoot an elephant.

    We cannot compare them and their results with a first time DG hunter who can only refer to books as to where to place the shot.

    Richard Harland used his 458 WM for control work as it was the departemental issue rifle of the time. He however prefered and speaks highly of his 505 loaded with 600 grain solids when guiding clients on elephant.

    I am not a rich tourist, I am an African hunter and foot safari guide, I use the 500 Jeff as my backup rifle and have done so for many years. My mentor used one and the devastating results from this rifle has no equal in the game of stopping charging DG in any situation as long as the shooter does his part.

    Am I recommending either the 500 Jeff or the 505 Gibbs for a client? Certainly not. However I would most certainly not recommend the 458 WM foe a client for either buffalo or elephant. There are much better performing cartridges including the 375 H&H, 458 Lott, 450 Rigby 404 Jeff, 416 Rigby and all of the NE cartridges(for the rich ones) so why on earth would a client want to use a marginal caliber with known issues when he can choose one with a proven track record?
     

  19. Don458

    Don458 AH Senior Member

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  20. Don458

    Don458 AH Senior Member

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    I have chrono some old win factory loads (old stock) and consistently reads around 2000 fps I have been working up loads using H335 powder and 500gr and get an honest 2160 fps with a deviation of 5-10 fps these are not compressed loads and I practice in summer months 90+ degree weather and never had problems with pressure/extraction. I never been to Africa. Only trying to simulate conditions. I have been shooting this load for a while. My question is, the extraction problem s that happened are they due to the older powders? Because i seem to not have a problem with it . Thank you
     

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