Taking Trophies...or only pictures?

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by steve ahrenberg, Aug 8, 2019.

  1. IdaRam

    IdaRam SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    Steve, your initial post and the questions you asked were good ones. A positive contribution to the forum which initiated meaningful dialog between the members.
    But you followed it up with this:
    When I read this post, this is what I hear:
    I wouldn’t do that and frankly I don’t see the point.
    The anti’s are handing us our asses and you numbskulls are part of the reason why. If the anti’s ever get wind of your irresponsible behavior we are screwed.

    That is the perception I have when I read it, and I believe that may be the perception others have as well.
    If your answer is to grab your toys and go home, well so be it. I hope you don’t. I am sure you do in fact have much wisdom to share and there are people who can benefit from it. Quite likely myself, as I have only been on 3 trips to Africa. I learn many new things every time I go. So, with your experience I would imagine you do have a lot of knowledge that can be valuable and helpful to many folks around here.
    In that spirit, here’s a reply to your initial post.
    I usually hunt multiple species in multiple states here in the U.S. every year. All DIY, I have only been on one guided hunt here in the states. It was for my bighorn sheep in my home state of Idaho. Rarely do I shoot an animal that I want to have mounted. Currently the only North American game that I have mounts of are Shiras Moose and Bighorn Sheep. Actually, I take that back, I do have two bear rugs as well but they are on the wall in my office. And I have one whitetail and one mule deer and one pronghorn euro mount, also in my office.
    I have shot mule deer, whitetail deer, elk, bear, pronghorn, coyotes, badgers, birds of all kinds, etc... and have never felt compelled to have them mounted.
    Why would African game be any different?
    I love hunting impala and warthog. I will do it every time I go to Africa. I love shooting baboons. I love calling jackal at night with Foxpro and spotlight in SA.
    I was offered an opportunity to help clear a farm which had been sold of all the animals. The meat was valuable to the landowner and the animals were not included in the sale price. Head shots only! Challenging. I shot zebra, kudu, impala, gemsbok, warthog, etc. All head shots, all dead, none lost or wounded. The land owner was happy. I got to spend two days chasing around the bush, stalking animals, hunting, shooting. I felt like I was a kid with my BB gun again.
    From the last two trips I still have a few animals at my taxidermist and I am super excited to get them back. They are very, very special to me. A Serval which is/was my number 1 most wanted animal. I got him on the 10th night of a ten day hunt. I have a 15 1/2” limpopo bushbuck and a 16 1/4” Chobe bushbuck there as well. Both will be lifesize mounts. One of my long term goals is to have a lifesize mount of all the huntable bushbuck.
    I have limited funds and if I mounted everything I shot I would not be able to go back to Africa like I did last year to hunt Tuskless elephant. The most meaningful hunt of my life, by the way. Nothing came home with me from the tuskless which you can put your fingers on, but I did bring SO MUCH back with me. And I am forever changed for the experience.
    I could go on, but you get the picture. I hunt for a million reasons. But waaaaay down the list is the “trophy” (trinket as Royal loves to say :D ) or taxidermy on the wall.
    Steve, thank you for the kind wish for a good weekend. I wish you the same and hope you will rejoin the conversation.
    Dan
     

  2. johnnyblues

    johnnyblues AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    Well this thread brought out a lot of interesting points and opinions. I truly love to hunt. Sitting by the fire enjoying a glass of wine and listening to the sounds Africa can make, enjoying some game meat and the local culture are all great reasons to hunt in Africa or just about anywhere else in the world. Most know I’m a fan of Taxidermy and I have never had a lot of people see my trophies in person. But when someone does see them and shows an interest in them I enjoy educating them about our sport. No doubt there will come a time where I will not be able to do the expensive hunts out there. And probably very soon. So Taxidermy at some point will stop. I can see myself going to Africa for cull hunts only and I’m ok with that. But for now I’m waiting on 8 more trophies to depart Africa and they will all be mounted. We should all respect how another hunter feels no matter what it is , because ultimately we’re all brothers and sisters.
     

  3. ack

    ack AH Enthusiast

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    We go to enjoy the experience and to feed a lot of people with game we take..Most ranchers in Africa do not eat their cattle or feed the help with it...They live on wild game...We also give some to orphanages which are always in short supply..
     

  4. Tra3

    Tra3 AH Veteran

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    @CoElkHunter i agree that the memory of the hunt is special. I do not have a single mount in my house, the euros are all in the garage. Your comment about “no real trophies” might be using the common concept that an animal must be massive to be a trophy. I would bet that many hunters’ most prized “trophy” isn’t the biggest one. The experience of the hunt and relative difficulty can make an average animal into the favorite. I would be curious to hear other’s favorite trophies. Mine is probably a small cow elk that a close friend and I harvested together.

    I hunt for the chance to clear my mind of the noise of work and be in the open air. It is a chance to be close to God and really part of the circle of life. A good stalk with a camera is not the same, since you are just an observer and not an actor in nature’s life cycle.

    A modified Chinese proverb:
    One of noblest acts of man is to hunt.
    It matters not that he get his animal.
    What matters is that the animal be there and he try to get it.
     
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  5. CoElkHunter

    CoElkHunter AH Fanatic

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    Tra3,
    You HAVE figured the ENTIRE hunting thing out, in MY mind and the excellent Chinese proverb you quoted is proof! Harvesting a fine trophy animal is GREAT, but the PURSUIT of a game animal with all of the accompanying sights, smells, sounds, boredom then an adrenaline rush when the game (or you) get close, is what I hunt/live for. I have some antlers and horns that I’ve kept over time, but have only meaning to me or my friends who were with me on the hunt. I’ve shared MANY more photos to others than have ever seen my “trophies”. But it’s all good and to each their own. For ME, I look forward to that next hunt with the possibility of maybe getting a nice trophy animal, but more so the enjoyment of pursuing the game animal that I am sure is just around the next stand of trees.
     
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  6. steve ahrenberg

    steve ahrenberg AH Veteran

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    "Take my toys and go home" Idaram, As things devolved, some personal shots were taken and not by me. I was even chastised for not paying to help the site out. Is that a requirement to join the debate? I simply chose to "abandon thread" because it will devolve further. I am unapologetic in my beliefs, as you gentlemen are. "Taking my toys and go home" can only be taken one way, negatively.

    As I believe Hank stated, we all have much to learn from one another. But if we get "Tribal", no-one wins and the point is lost as it turns into a skirmish. One I have no desire to participate in. I'm not here to argue with anyone.

    I wrote an article called "The Client" once. It was in The African Hunter magazine. The editor (Ant Williams) commented to me that I accomplished something almost impossible in writing. I got nearly 100% of the readers to read it. 50% hated me, 50 & loved me. It was just like this topic, controversial. But no-one got offended.

    I'm not in a popularity contest here. I offer up the only thing I have to give, my experience. No hostility, no ego and if my original post was offensive, Well, I don't know what to say.
     
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  7. IdaRam

    IdaRam SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    I don’t think your original post was offensive at all. I think it was a great post. I enjoy hearing what the other folks who have replied have to say. My perception of where things went a little south was with your second post, which I referenced above. I don’t see any “critical” replies until thereafter, and I did find that post distasteful.
    Maybe it wasn’t intended that way? Seemed like you threw a bit of a grenade and then ducked out when it went off.
    However, if you read my complete reply, and I imagine you did, I hope it comes across as polite and courteous, and myself and others have encouraged you to continue to participate in this thread. I still think it’s a good one. I have no axe to grind with you and don’t have any interest in an argument either. But I think you deserved the jab.
    And I’m glad you’re back! :D
     

  8. CoElkHunter

    CoElkHunter AH Fanatic

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    Yes, please don’t abandon this thread or your opinions. I’ve never been to Africa, but have always wanted to hunt there. I found this AH website while looking for something else. I VALUE everyone’s thoughts, experience, knowledge, opinions, etc., here even if I don’t agree with ALL of them. I make that choice. If you or someone else here “edits” their views or opinions to appease others or to win a popularity contest, than we ALL lose! Just my thoughts.
     

  9. The Artistry of Wildlife

    The Artistry of Wildlife SPONSOR Since 2014 AH Elite

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    A picture will never let you feel the nose, touch the fur or hair, feel the ears, look it in the eye or bring the hunt back to you like a piece of art reproduce out of your trophy. A euro, bone and horn. You can feel it tough it pick it up. But has no reverence in my opinion for the animal you pursued. Creating it in taxidermy as realistic as possible IS THAT REVERANCE. Crap taxidermy is why MOST DON'T get things mounted again. They are not looking at ART nearly a facsimile mount still dead looking same as the picture of the animal dead. Nothing about their mounts excites them as they look at a lifeless bad piece. I don't rehunt game I travel far for myself. Get one, move on, hundreds of other species to pursue. Not everyone can afford taxidermy , its not suppose to be that way. Art is art and it isn't cheap, not suppose to be, as the man hours to create it is high. Why do litho's sell because people can't afford originals. These days why even buy a litho. Go the the art gallery take a picture, print it out at Wall Mart and hang it on the wall. Copyright infringement but who's gonna bust you?
     
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  10. Firebird

    Firebird AH Veteran

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    Couple ideas as I read through this thought provoking post-
    The great thing about fish is that they can be caught photographed and released, I do have several mounted, one of my own and several for my daughter that loves to fish. It makes Christmas shopping easy for her each year and maybe she grows up and remembers those trips with her dad someday.
    Pictures are portable, physically and electronically, texted them home from Africa and e mailed them and now make books of them on my computer. Showed them to other hunters in the airport. When my older daughter shot her first deer she texted etc all her little friends and when she brings boys home, the mount is a big conversation piece for her.
    And we don't have alot of money so it is a sacrifice for me to mount stuff and keep it in the basement. ( Basement is finished, and frequented by many. But I feel like that is part of the responsibility of killing something-using it to its fullest.
    I have even mounted several animals we found dead, the huge antelope was an obvious candidate but the small freshly hit by a car black bear most people wouldn't have even noticed. It gets lots of conversation in our basement and positively boggles peoples minds that I didn't kill it and it isnt big but I still chose to preserve it and keep it around.
    A woman at the airport on my way home had been to a photo park in South Africa. She wasn't against hunting but asked why I couldn't just take pix-she loved that I had an entire sd card that I let her download onto her computer. I told her that I had walked where the animals walked, touched them to the point my ph was getting nervous, eaten them and seen the remainder of the meat go to a butchery for others. AND been able to take thousands of pictures as we hunted. I explained my astonishment that the trackers chose to keep the belly fat as their prize where I wouldn't normally touch it. And now I sit at home and can still touch my animals and stare at them and tell the stories to all kinds of people. So I told the woman that I actually got much more from Africa than she did and would have it full size in my home to enjoy until age takes that from me.
    The photos I have on display on the wall are of live animals I didn't shoot (always been jealous of Brickburn and his white rifle) but the heads on the wall take me back to everything Africa, so I want the photos, the mounts, the empty rifle cartridges and the porcupine quills I picked up. The more I have to remind me of every little detail, the better.
    Next time I go, I would even like to be able to pay for an animal, probably a cull type of whatever species, kill it cleanly, watch the trackers process the meat and then donate the whole thing to an orphanage or village or whatever is available in that vicinity. I love to hunt and to shoot and while I can't or don't mount everything I kill, it is pleasing to me to think that other people benefit from what I enjoy doing.
    Can you imagine mounting every fish and duck you took last season!? No but we took pix of alot of them, mounted the favorites and preserved the meat and filled our memory banks!
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
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  11. Mort Hill

    Mort Hill GOLD SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    I rub my hand down the back of my lion almost every time I walk by. I chuckle in my office when I see my baboon, sitting on a bar stool, holding a cigar and shot glass. I think back with the ultimate emotion and reverence at the 3 pt whitetail skull cap from my first deer that I shot, all by myself, that I loaded into the trunk of my Mom’s Buick to bring home 40 years ago. On and on I could go. Taxidermy for me is almost spiritual in what it evokes in my soul. But I also spend hours some nights looking through each of my hunt photo albums, or reading my hunt journals that also stir the soul. I guess in simple terms, the taxidermy, the photos, the journals all take me some place I love, doing something I love, where at that moment, I can not physically be. I too have enjoyed this forum. I too like to be challenged or given a different perspective. I think it is healthy, and as stated before on this thread, keeps me grounded.
     
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  12. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    I am glad to see you back on this thread as well Steve. As at @IdaRam noted, it was the second post that touched a nerve. What I took away from it was that if one didn't bring home everything and have it mounted then that hunter was in league with the anti's. If I read that wrong, then I apologize profusely. If I did read it correctly, then I still believe it was a ridiculous statement. Moreover, it is a ethic that can only be followed by someone with very nearly unlimited resources - space and disposable income.

    Bringing everything back and having it mounted will, at some point, become impossible for the average international hunter if he wishes to continue to pursue his sport. As I noted in a previous post, I know people who went to Africa, had a life changing experience, desperately want to return, but will not because there is "no room" for more mounts. That to me is a definition of insanity.

    I like fine taxidermy (and hate bad taxidermy) as much as anyone. And I am luckier than most to have a place to display some of it. My largest buff broods at me and makes my pointer nervous every time I walk into the trophy room (by the way, that is one hell of an old bull you shot). But I also love the photographs on the wall, the albums I have built, and picking back through journals and the articles I have written. All of those easily transport me back to that particular place in the bush, or on a mountain, wherever.

    I am simply encouraging hunters to keep hunting. I believe that a photograph or even just a memory is absolutely fine. It has done no disservice to the memory of the animal, and done every service conceivable to the man who wishes to continue to hunt.
     

  13. Tally-Ho Hunting Safaris

    Tally-Ho Hunting Safaris SPONSOR Since 2015 AH Fanatic

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    i say the value is in the hunt
    the experience
    the story you retell over and over as to how it went down
    no more value in a trophy kudu or a cull impala, taxidermy or no taxidermy, its about being out there .....and hunting
    so if one guy comes and shoots 20 cull animals and takes nothing to the taxidermist and the next guy hunts one trophy and takes it to the taxidermist, whats the difference really. the meat etc never gets wasted, the life was taken for a reason, and the hunt was good


    regards
     
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  14. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN AH ENABLER SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR LIFETIME TITANIUM BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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    I am now very selective about what is going to come home and be mounted. It was very hard for me to think of not bringing every trophy home, but I have started.
    I brought back the skull and horns of a Sable, no shoulder mount.

    There are trophies I have abandoned due to poor quality control and parts being stolen, so all I have are photos.

    I am just finishing my stalking here in the UK and I wish I had more pictures already. I am bringing three trophies home. Two Euro mounts for the collection and one selection of flint chips from an very very old private dig site that were gifted to me. Amazing human hunting history.

    I take huge numbers of pictures on every outing and trip I go on. It helps me see the WHOLE story when they are reviewed and shared.
    Taxidermy does impart size and color of the beasts much better than a mere photo, but I know one of these days I may be relegated to pictures alone. The day is coming. I'll just have to slowly accept it.

    To each there own.

    PS: If the meat from what I was shooting was not being used I would probably not be able to hunt the animal. (full utilization)
     
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  15. CoElkHunter

    CoElkHunter AH Fanatic

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    I really like your perspective on this subject.
     

  16. Chago

    Chago AH Veteran

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    This is such a good thread. Great topic. Not one I have seen before which is shocking since you would think it would always come up. Maybe I just miss them. I actually liked posts from all 3 or 4 sides to this argument that I read. I kinda agree with everyone. Or I can at least see your point of view.

    For me personally the trophy has nothing to do with the hunt. But...... Read until the end before you decide what team I am on.

    The story of the hunt, the experience, the feeling. That's what brings me back again and again. I have spent thousands of hours in tree stands, hiking up mountains, sleeping in cold wet tents etc. And always go back for that.

    But that being said, I have mounted almost every animal. So I say almost cause I shoot many meat deer, moose and bears every year that are not trophy specimen. In regards to a wall trophy, not the trophy story, hunt etc. So those I don't mount. But any nice size specimen I love to mount in full shoulder mounts. And every non local hunt I go on. I get the animal mounted. So going to Africa I toyed with the idea of euros, maybe no mount at all. And all of it went through my head. Save money for the next hunt etc. But you know what, all 7 animals are at the taxidermists now. I am planning on going next year and I am actually picking a animal list of what I want mounted, fully admitting that. I currently have about 20, shoulder, pedestal and full body mounts in my basement. About 8 more animals at a taxidermist now. And I fully intend to mount everything from my next Africa trip in 2020. And the red stag I'm going after this October.

    I guess the why.... Why do I mount. Yes the beauty is in the story. And the pictures are all on my phone. And when I exchange stories with other hunters it's great to use those pictures. The trophy's truthfully are only seen by family and certain number of friends. Much more people see my cell photos then my trophies. The trophies cost me a fortune and I could do way more hunting if I didn't get them. But I keep getting them. And I actually always say oh the next animal I'll just euro it. And I always get a mount instead. So why am I ranting at this point.

    Well I guess for me. Sitting in that basement watching my normal hunting shows. I love looking at all those animals. I love remembering the stories and the hunts. I love the look on people's faces when they are amazed at the realism of the mount and then I share the story about the hunt, the country, the animal, the shot etc. So me personally I want to get everything mounted.

    But that all being said. With more words then necessary lol. I can appreciate the others point of view as well. Because what happens when I have 50 animals down there and it's full. But I want to go back to those mountains and shoot another elk,kudu, etc. I'm not gonna not go because my walls are full. I still love to hunt. I guess at this point I'm hunting new things, things for the first time. But at some point I'll only mount when it's bigger then my last one???? I dunno to be honest. Maybe I'll just build an addition to my house lol. I dunno.

    I don't even remember what I said at the start of this post at this point. This topic got me so deep in thought. Either way. I hope I added something to this thread.
     
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  17. ShortMag

    ShortMag AH Member

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    I don't have to kill to have hunted nor do I have to kill to have the memories of the hunt. Yet, when I am fortunate enough to have killed something both photos and taxidermy enhance those memories and help to keep them clear in my mind. To me, while the photos are great and certainly stir the memories of the hunt, their ability to do so pales in comparison to that of taxidermy. As Dennis stated, taxidermy is on a whole other level. It is simply more tangible even visually than photos and being able to hold the horns/antlers in your hands or touch the fur enhances the memories in ways that a mere photo never can. That point is made painfully clear as frequently look at photos from my first safari and wait for my taxidermy to be completed.

    Neither the lack of space or funding for taxidermy or the inability to take photos would prevent me from hunting. Both add to the hunt but neither can replace the memories of having hunted. That said, I am a collector as well as a hunter and could definitely see where the inability to bring something more tangible home than the experience and memories would combine with my limited budget to make it unlikely that I would either hunt a certain species or hunt that species more than once. The quality of the overall experience (the challenge, the scenery, the uniqueness and the location) would be the main factor there though.
     
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  18. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    I don't think anyone said anything about not liking taxidermy. According to your information you are thirty-three (?) I am sixty-six and wall and floor space became a premium some little while ago. I would urge you to think ahead to assure a spot for the special animals on your bucket list; or start working those numbers to build a true trophy room or even separate building. However, you obviously like to hunt. So, I can almost guarantee you, eventually either Isaac Newton or Adam Smith will get you interested in photography.
     

  19. JGRaider

    JGRaider AH Fanatic

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    The troll Ahrenberg has asked this same question on two different forums already in the past. He just wants to argue and attempt to belittle anyone who doesn't agree with him. It's also his opportunity to tell us all what a badass, international hunter he is, how awesome his trophy room is, etc. Give me a freaking break.

    Do whatever pleases you.........ship trophies home, take only pics.......YOU have only yourself to please, not this troll.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
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  20. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Not saying in this case, but being a fraud has never been easier.
     

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