Stock vs recoil:

[C.W. Richter]

Bob: Did you see the old Euro 35 W(hat's it called?) the other guy picked up at auction recently (with a pile of others?) Old Mauser sporters, but nice!

@skydiver386
I would prefer the recot to come back in a stray line and be spread over an appropriate size recoil pad over an adequate area to having the recoil slapping me up the side of the head everytime I pull the trigger.
Yes stock dest determines where the recoil goes and I want said recoil into my shot not the side of the head.
You say gun weight is more important than stock design, I have to disagree with that. I say this because my mate had a Marlin 44 mag with a straight grip stock and a hard plastic but plate.
I had a 444 Marlin made in an SMLE sanction with a pistol grip stock. The 444 was half a pound heavier than the 44mag. After 3 shots with that I'll fitting stock on that little 44 mag I went back to my 444, even tho the recoil was substantially more it was far more comfortable to shoot. My mate said I was mad until he put a mag full (5shots) thru my 444. He the said the 444 was far more comt than his 44 mag.
So yes stock design and fit make sure make a big difference.
Bob

 

[Altitude sickness]

Most of the Gunwerks rifle stocks are built for shooting from the prone position. They are most often used for Precision Rifle Shooting (PRS) Competition. This brings up several important points that are always absent from this type of discussion, the build of the individual shooter, and shooting position/body position. In other words, standing, kneeling, sitting, or prone position.

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Take these two for example. Not just different height, but different neck length and thus different height from the top of the shoulder to the eye when standing.

If both of our characters were looking straight ahead, what would the measurement be from the shoulders, to the eye sockets? Probably several inches more on the taller individual. My personal height measurement between shoulder height and eye height is a difference of over 7 inches. Take a wooden yardstick and hold it level with the ground at the height of my shoulder and see how far I have to scrunch my shoulders and bend my neck forward to try to get my cheek down on that yardstick. Not comfortable, and certainly not a position I want to be in when a hard kicking rifle is pounding my shoulder.

The shooter with a longer neck will need a comb somewhat higher than the shooter with a shorter neck, otherwise to get a proper cheek weld, the taller/longer neck shooter will have to hunch over the stock.
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This is a perfect illustration of what I'm talking about. To get a proper cheek weld, and see through the optics, this shooter is forced to hunch his shoulders and scrunch his neck down like a turtle. The type of rifle doesn't matter, it could be a yardstick as I used in my illustration, and things would be the same. The straight line stock doe not compensate for the height difference between the shooters shoulder and the shooters eye, so the shooter has to adjust to the poor ergonomics of the gun.
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Same shooter, different rifle, same problem. The kneeling position leans our shooter forward a little, but notice not only how the shooter is shrugging his shoulders and turtle scrunching his neck, but look at how high the red dot has to be mounted to even begin to be usable for a straight stocked rifle like this.
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Same shooter in the prone. The straight comb doesn't present a problem in this position. As a matter of fact, it's almost perfectly suited to this type of shooting, as is the Gunwerks rifle that @Altitude sickness posted above. Look carefully at the height of the shooters shoulders in relation to the shooters eyes, along with the stock comb and optics height.

Yes, the shooter is going to feel more recoil in the prone vs standing. The point is that comb height should not be a matter of fashion, but should vary depending on the physique of the shooter, and possibly the shooting position most likely to be used. Taller shooters with longer necks need a higher comb, especially for shooting in a standing position.
View attachment 761079 Take a close look at this shooter, who I'm sure most of you are familiar with. Notice the very straight comb of the stock almost in line with the bore. Also notice how high the butt is on his shoulder. actually the top 1/3 isn't even touching his shoulder in the standing position. It's almost as if you could cut a half moon off the top of the butt, sorta like this...
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Holy Hellfire, what the heck is that? That's one of them evil rifles from Mexico I think they call a Monte Carlo and it'll kick the crap outta ya! Well actually no. As a matter of fact a person with my physique finds them quite comfortable to shoot, as long as the butt is not excessively far below the bore-line, the length of pull is correct, the butt pad is wide, and the rifle is heavy enough. I don't have to scrunch my shoulders or turtleneck to get a proper cheek weld, which makes the rifle feel like it kicks less than one with a straight comb.

Does it make sense now? Do you see the light?
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Ok, now the important question what brand hat is that ? Looks like a palm leaf “Gus”.

 

[Safari Dave]

I'm probably the "odd man out" here, but straight stocks (like many Winchester Model 70's) kick the stew out of me.

I prefer Monte-Carlo stocks (like Weatherby).


Maybe I have a long neck, who knows???


I have a couple of CZ 550's with "European" stocks, and one with an "American" stock. For me (and my son) the European version .416 Rigby had less perceived recoil that the "American" .375 H&H.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@skydiver386
That little 410 had a sock that was just pain awful in the fit department.
I will never know what the recoil of a 243 is like as I will never fire one.
My mate had a tikka T3 lite in that nasty little calibre and he said my fast 25 was more comfortable to shoot. So the 243 must be just plaine horrible in every department.
Bob

 

[steve white]

I'm probably the "odd man out" here, but straight stocks (like many Winchester Model 70's) kick the stew out of me.

I prefer Monte-Carlo stocks (like Weatherby).


Maybe I have a long neck, who knows???


I have a couple of CZ 550's with "European" stocks, and one with an "American" stock. For me (and my son) the European version .416 Rigby had less perceived recoil that the "American" .375 H&H.

Don't both the euro and the Weatherby Monte Carlo stocks "shoot out from under your cheek" since the front of the comb is lower in fact than the back of the cheek piece?

 

[DLSJR]

If you want to reduce the felt recoil of any given rifle, put a foam filled fiberglass stock on it. Brown Precision is my preference but we just put a McMillan on my son’s .375. Those stocks noticeably reduce felt recoil due to the flexing of the stock which dampens recoil.

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

I've found that total gun weight is far more important than stock design. Simple physics says weight v power level will determine how much recoil a gun producers. All the stock design does is determine where that recoil goes.

assume 416 as mentioned above:
this is correct, but with a drop in the stock then you get more barrel lift and the stock whacks u in the cheek, and your eyes are off the target for follow up shot.
the more straight stock the recoil is more straight back through the shoulder, no barrel lift, no whack in the cheek, eyes stay on target
all this assuming shooting open or reflex sights with good technique, once you add a scope people lift their cheek away from stock so things change a bit.

 

[skydiver386]

assume 416 as mentioned above:
this is correct, but with a drop in the stock then you get more barrel lift and the stock whacks u in the cheek, and your eyes are off the target for follow up shot.
the more straight stock the recoil is more straight back through the shoulder, no barrel lift, no whack in the cheek, eyes stay on target
all this assuming shooting open or reflex sights with good technique, once you add a scope people lift their cheek away from stock so things change a bit.

Cheek slap is a genuine concern, I agree, but where I differ from most is the initial cause and how to fix it.

When a large bore Heavy Game or Dangerous Game rifle is built, the customer and builder go over what characteristics the gun will have. Caliber, barrel length and profile, sights or scope, wood, laminate or synthetic stock, stock style, total gun weight, etc. I believe most modern hunters want a rifle not one ounce heavier than needed, and not one inch longer than needed. They describe a 458 Lott with a 20 inch barrel and total weight of 8.00 pounds. Recoil concerns are addressed by specifying a staight classic stock because it "fights recoil" and adding a thick recoil pad.

There are times when you look at a friend and tell them "Man I wouldn't do that if I were you". Well this is one of those times.

If the rifle is built of an appropriate size and weight for it's power level, muzzle flip, cheeck slap and overall recoil usually are not a major problem. I've seen literally hundreds of rifles in powerful calibers with classic straight comb stocks that would eat you alive with recoil and muzzle rise because they were built with relatively light barrels, etc. The big "Mountain Rifle" craze a few years back was a perfect example of this. Lightweight Titanium and carbon fiber 300 Magnums with straight "Fights Recoil" stocks that were the most violent recoiling firearms I've ever shot.These can be purchased slightly used in local gun shops along with boxes of factory ammo, minus the 2 rounds fired by it's previous owner.

How many times have you heard a hunter describe a desire for a rifle that balances "between the hands"? Sounds good at first, but if we apply strict laws of physics it's a bad plan. When we consider recoil and muzzle flip, a rifle that is muzzle heavy is the better choice. This is exactly why shortening the barrel by 4 or 5 inches is such a bad deal. You are not only removing weight from the rifle, it's being remover from the WORST place possible where muzzle flip is concerned. Adding weight near the butt will lessen overall recoil, but if we were able to add weight at the muzzle, we lessen recoil AND muzzle rise.

If we were building a powerful DG rifle fron the ground up, and we wanted the least muzzle rise, least recoil, least cheek slap, what features would this rifle have?

1. A heavy profile barrel with the balance point towards the muzzle.
2. An overall weight proportional to the power level of the cartridge it is chambered for.
3. A stock that is the correct length for the shooter, as little drop at the heel as possible, and a comb/cheek piece higher than the heel enough to provide a proper cheek weld and align the shooters eye with the sights.

 

[skydiver386]

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about.

The owner of Boyds Gunstocks and his .416 Ruger with a Monte Carlo stock. The man owns a gun stock company, and he can have any stock style he chooses, yet he has a raised comb Monte Carlo style. You get a good look at the rifle about the 14.:45 mark.

Age Over Inches - This is Africa S8 Episode 5

In this episode of This Is Africa, we head deep into the rugged Zambezi Valley. With the owner of Boyds Hardwood Gunstocks, Dustin Knutson, we venture on a relentless hunt for the oldest, most battle-

rumble.com

If the classic styled straight comb "Fights Recoil" design was really that big a deal, don't you think he'd have one on his gun?

 

[BryceM]

An interesting topic! I have a Weatherby Vanguard youth model, synthetic stock, 7mm-08 and it kicks like the devil’s own mule. Seriously. There is NO way a kid or small-frame woman could shoot it well.

I have a CZ550 in .416 Rigby with the European stock (with a bit of drop to it) and it’s pleasant to shoot, even with 400 grain bullets at 2,500 fps. Much nicer to shoot than a .338 Win or .340 Wby. I do use a slip-over recoil pad usually when I shoot it. I thought I might prefer the straight American stock, but this one naturally puts the scope right where I want it, so I have no desire to change.

The youth Vanguard is light with a short LOP and the CZ is heavy with a wider stock.

Final verdict - there is a reason bespoke H&H rifles come with an in-person fitting session.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

An interesting topic! I have a Weatherby Vanguard youth model, synthetic stock, 7mm-08 and it kicks like the devil’s own mule. Seriously. There is NO way a kid or small-frame woman could shoot it well.

I have a CZ550 in .416 Rigby with the European stock (with a bit of drop to it) and it’s pleasant to shoot, even with 400 grain bullets at 2,500 fps. Much nicer to shoot than a .338 Win or .340 Wby. I do use a slip-over recoil pad usually when I shoot it. I thought I might prefer the straight American stock, but this one naturally puts the scope right where I want it, so I have no desire to change.

The youth Vanguard is light with a short LOP and the CZ is heavy with a wider stock.

Final verdict - there is a reason bespoke H&H rifles come with an in-person fitting session.

The short LOP is the reason the youth model kicks you hard. It's jumping out of your hands when you shoot it. Lightweight also doesn't help. A smaller person may actually handle the recoil better because the gun fits him/her better.

 

[Pondoro]

For me, straighter stocks with less drop are more comfortable and have less muzzle rise under recoil.

My ZKK602 in .375H&H had a bavarian stock..plenty muzzle jump.. That annoyed me so I had it restocked with a straight one..huge difference.. Did the same with my .416 Rigby..(McMillan stock).

My .470 Krieghoff has a straight stock..it is a pleasure to shoot.

Even a .600 double that is properly stocked and balanced has little muzzle jump.. Holland & Holland master this fully..

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I shoot bolt action rifles and muzzle jump is of no concern to me. Absolutely no concern. I don't reload the rifle on my shoulder. Never have and never will. And that is also precisely why proper fit is so important to me. Forget about recoil. I never notice it a bit when I'm shooting at game and my time at the range is kept to minimum necessary for zeroing. In the field my focus is entirely on the animal/bird. But when the gun is mounted I want the sights to line up INSTANTLY. No hunting for the bead or crosshairs. No lopsided field of view through the scope or black halo. If I can quickly mount the gun eyes closed, open them, and sight picture is perfect, then the fit is perfect. No problem reloading and remounting the gun. Also nothing to obstruct my view while reloading. This rifle with modified Monte Carlo stock has shot a trainload of animals over the last fifty years, all wearing a scope. Many were shot fast and on the fly. A few (very few) required a followup shot. No problem. The gun fits me perfectly. Recently I added iron sights and quick detach rings. When the scope is removed, the irons also line up instantly.

Once you have the new rifle in hand there's a lot that can be done to adjust the sight picture. Start with LOP. You can lengthen or shorten it if needed. Then changing the bases and rings can raise or lower scope sight picture. Adjust eye relief by sliding the scope forward or aft in the rings. Iron sights, if they're good stuff, can be adjusted by moving elevation of rear sight and changing height of front bead/ramp. And finally, failing all else one can go to work whittling on the stock rise.

Edit: Hmmm. Just noticed the Africa Hunting logo appeared in the corner of the image. Why? Oh ... maybe because I cut and pasted it from one of my previous posts? That must be it. I have a new phone and still unable to upload images onto it from my old phone.

 

[skydiver386]

For me, straighter stocks with less drop are more comfortable and have less muzzle rise under recoil.

My ZKK602 in .375H&H had a bavarian stock..plenty muzzle jump.. That annoyed me so I had it restocked with a straight one..huge difference.. Did the same with my .416 Rigby..(McMillan stock).

My .470 Krieghoff has a straight stock..it is a pleasure to shoot.

Even a .600 double that is properly stocked and balanced has little muzzle jump.. Holland & Holland master this fully..

The old Bavarian stocks have an excessive amount of drop at the heel and are notorious on large caliber rifles. On a 7X64 they aren't bad at all, but a 458 Lott not so much.

I have a ZKK602 in 458 Win/458 Lott purchased from another member that has the Bavarian stock and it's going to get the full build treatment at Jerrett Rifles. The factory barrel will be replaced with a heavier barrel, the stock replaced with a brown laminate in a high comb sporter style.

 

[Pondoro]

This is my .416 Rigby ZKK602, McMillan stock, M70 safety and a heavy Böhler barrel. Heavy but a joy to shoot..

 

[Tex .416]

This is my .416 Rigby ZKK602, McMillan stock, M70 safety and a heavy Böhler barrel. Heavy but a joy to shoot..

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Which stock pattern is that?

Nice looking set up.

 

[skydiver386]

This is my .416 Rigby ZKK602, McMillan stock, M70 safety and a heavy Böhler barrel. Heavy but a joy to shoot..

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You must have good eyes to use that peep sight. I use a peep on some of my target rifles in bright light, but my eyes are to old to think about a peep for hunting.

 

[Bonk]

I have a couple of CZ 550's with "European" stocks, and one with an "American" stock. For me (and my son) the European version .416 Rigby had less perceived recoil that the "American" .375 H&H.

I had the exact opposite experience. I replaced the Euro stock on my 550 375H&H with a traditional American style stock and it was much nicer to shoot IMO.

 

[Muskox]

Looking at a custom bolt gun in 416 Remington with a 13 3/4” stock with 1/2 and 1 1/8 drops. This differs from a factory M-70 being 13 3/4 x 1/2x1/2. Would the additional drop at the butt on the custom gun increase recoil significantly? Thanks for your thoughts. JPA

It depends on the your ortho-metrics and face shape. The length of all your different anatomical parts and face shape. Your body composition is also a factor.

If you look at the heavily butt drop centric stocks like the female version of the Weatherby Camilla, and the Savage Lady Hunter, you will see that some people women like a lot of drop.

I personally like almost reverse comb. Where the butt is almost higher than the grip.

 

[Pondoro]

You must have good eyes to use that peep sight. I use a peep on some of my target rifles in bright light, but my eyes are to old to think about a peep for hunting.

I can only use the diopter at short range but its easy to remove it and put on a scope.