SOUTH AFRICA: Tootabi Hunting Safaris What Is The Wounded Policy And Billing Issues

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Loodt I get what you are saying .... However if I was in your position I would refrain from sarcastic comments such as above....

Just a humble opinion.

My best always

 

[siml]

You know what Loodt, I just sold my first unicorn package.

 

[johnnyblues]

I don't get it,honestly I don't. Is the hunting industry the only one were we accept poor service delivery as the norm.From the post and replies on here it seems that way. It pains me to think that hunting clients have come to accept that there will be a issue with a Safari somewhere along the way and that they just need to take it in their stride and sort it out. I am sure 90% of the Outfitters and PH's on here feel the same, a Safari that is well planned and prepared should have no issues,except maybe a puncture or two.
In March I had 5 guns shoot 193+ animals in 4 days. Keeping count of who shot what and what was wounded is no easy task when the bullets start flying at that rate. Not one shooter had a issue on his bill,clean and settled on the spot. What is more all of them paid me directly by request instead of paying the facilitating Outfitter. So I booked their flight tickets,hotels and just about everything else including transferring their money to the Outfitter. The bill was completed including a breakdown of exchange rate at the time and bank charges for the transfers. Doing it for one person is not a problem,doing it for five becomes work on both sides. I have rebooked this group for March 2016 and I like to believe it's due to service and delivery on both my side and the Outfitter side.

Close the thread don't close it,accept poor service delivery as the norm or don't,but remember that every time you accept poor service delivery you contribute to threads like these because they could have been avoided if someone spoke up sooner and helped others to not fall into the same trap.
Royal,sure this wasn't easy and sure you had to bite your lip a few times to not jump on someone here. Thanks for the post and thanks for educating others,that in the end is what AH is for (my opinion).

I agree with you sir. I have come to believe AH is thee place to come for honest information on hunting in Africa. I m still a rookie granted...As I make my first safari in September. But speaking for myself I learned a tremendous amount here from members (thank you) and Ph's that were kind enough to educate me. Just my own experience for a moment while we speak of "mistakes". When I spoke with my PH in Namibia about booking the leopard hunt I m going on, we agreed all baits were to be included. I failed to notice until very recently the contract stated pre bait only. I was a little nervous to contact them so late in the game but when I e mailed there office they contacted my PH who promptly called me and said John if your notes say I agreed to that than please deduct the 12 day's of post baiting off your balance. That could have gone wrong quickly. He could have held is ground and said NO I never agreed to that. I of course was happy and relieved. Now of course as I told him I ll only be giving it back as it frees me to add another plains game to my wish list .

 

[gizmo]

I agree with you sir. I have come to believe AH is thee place to come for honest information on hunting in Africa. I m still a rookie granted...As I make my first safari in September. But speaking for myself I learned a tremendous amount here from members (thank you) and Ph's that were kind enough to educate me. Just my own experience for a moment while we speak of "mistakes". When I spoke with my PH in Namibia about booking the leopard hunt I m going on, we agreed all baits were to be included. I failed to notice until very recently the contract stated pre bait only. I was a little nervous to contact them so late in the game but when I e mailed there office they contacted my PH who promptly called me and said John if your notes say I agreed to that than please deduct the 12 day's of post baiting off your balance. That could have gone wrong quickly. He could have held is ground and said NO I never agreed to that. I of course was happy and relieved. Now of course as I told him I ll only be giving it back as it frees me to add another plains game to my wish list .

Exactly and thank you for sharing that. That is the way business is done and it universal.

 

[TokkieM]

"Character cannot be bought,taught or bred. Character develops throught advercity and the lessons learned there from, the lack of character is the inability to learn from advercity or appreciate the advercity and values of others,man or beast"

-----------Tokkie Mostert

Loodt as Jaco rightly said in your position I won't be making comments like that. You have some rebuilding to do,the comment is not laying the right foundation for that. Even the Lion knows when there is too much fight in the Buffalo.

 

[johnnyblues]

I felt we were off to a good start even though it didn't start yet. If you understand what I mean...

 

[Beans]

Beans, you trying to say you are a grower not a shower?!

Defnitely a grower!

 

[spike.t]

You know what Loodt, I just sold my first unicorn package.

@TMS now simon is that a golden unicorn or saddleback?

 

[woods1126]

My intent is in no way to offend any here on AH. I have tried to choose my words wisely.

@TMS, With all due respect, In my humble opinion,I believe a mans honor and integrity, surpasses the value of any dangerous game animal, be it a full mane 10 year old Lion or 90lb. Ele, if one still exists. Lol. My wording of "tragedy" had everything to do with the tarnishing of the latter. You seem very confident in your statement that nothing will "change". I guess only time will tell. Hopefully only positive results will occur from this.

I also want to say again, I do not know Loodt, other than a 6-8 minute conversation we had last November, when I inquired about an offer he had on here, and I was contemplating adding it to my already planned hunt in the E. Cape this past April. All my opinions about him are drawn from the way Loodt has conducted himself here on AH, and hunt reports from members who have had great hunts. At no time, have I read any negative comments or reports of this man until now.

With that said, Loodt has not only paid restitution, apologized and admitted he was wrong, he has now become a "punching bag", and is not even allowed to throw back some rhetoric, like saying" Thank you for your positive energy", without being crucified, for his words. It seems Loodts "friends" up until this thread started, have turned into a bunch of hungry Hyenas, and Loodt being the wounded animal, being bit from every angle.

I for one was raised to stand up for the weak, and help pick someone up when they fall. I would do the very exact thing if it were you, TMS, with your stellar reputation here on AH, if you were being treated in this manner.

From what i am witnessing here, many have chosen to not only kick someone when they are down, but bury them, dig them back up, only to do it all over again.

I pray we all learn a very good lesson from all that has transpired here in the last few days. I have seen a very tight knit community, torn apart, with true character ozzing out of many, that before this issue occured, I considered solid members, and would not have hesitated, until now, booking a hunt with. I am in no way, saying they are not solid, but for me, I choose very wisely who I spend my hard earned money, and share a camp with.

Let's all hope we can get over this and move on. This too, shall pass. Kevin

 

[Areaonereal]

Woods 1126, So eloquently stated. Time to put this " to bed".

 

[johnnyblues]

It seems that the issue should have been between Loodt and the landowner, not Loodt and his client.
Every day the PH puts the client's physical well being ahead of his own. If someone's going home with a new zipper in his hide most PH's would say that's their job, not the client's. Seems like the same philosophy would apply here with the client's wallet. Landowner probably had expectation of payment for the Duiker. Loodt knew he was going to have to eat it. In the heat of the moment Royal agreed to bear the cost. Problem solved... Well, not really. On the other hand if the landowner was NOT demanding payment, no way in hell Loodt should have accepted payment. Either way, PH should have been going to the mat for his client. Mister landowner my client missed. If you disagree, show me the blood or a dead animal. It may have been in Loodt's interest to just pay the landowner if it was going to result in a battle and hard feelings. As a business owner sometimes you have to eat it for the greater good of your future prosperity.
The press release doesn't play well with me. Two or three quick comments relayed through friends here would have made this whole thing a complete non-event.
Just my take on the whole unfortunate circumstance.

My understanding is the duiker are free range on that property. The land was leased so the landowner had nothing to do with payments. Makes Loodt look even worse.

 

[huntermn15]

My intent is in no way to offend any here on AH. I have tried to choose my words wisely.

@TMS, With all due respect, In my humble opinion,I believe a mans honor and integrity, surpasses the value of any dangerous game animal, be it a full mane 10 year old Lion or 90lb. Ele, if one still exists. Lol. My wording of "tragedy" had everything to do with the tarnishing of the latter. You seem very confident in your statement that nothing will "change". I guess only time will tell. Hopefully only positive results will occur from this.

I also want to say again, I do not know Loodt, other than a 6-8 minute conversation we had last November, when I inquired about an offer he had on here, and I was contemplating adding it to my already planned hunt in the E. Cape this past April. All my opinions about him are drawn from the way Loodt has conducted himself here on AH, and hunt reports from members who have had great hunts. At no time, have I read any negative comments or reports of this man until now.

With that said, Loodt has not only paid restitution, apologized and admitted he was wrong, he has now become a "punching bag", and is not even allowed to throw back some rhetoric, like saying" Thank you for your positive energy", without being crucified, for his words. It seems Loodts "friends" up until this thread started, have turned into a bunch of hungry Hyenas, and Loodt being the wounded animal, being bit from every angle.

I for one was raised to stand up for the weak, and help pick someone up when they fall. I would do the very exact thing if it were you, TMS, with your stellar reputation here on AH, if you were being treated in this manner.

From what i am witnessing here, many have chosen to not only kick someone when they are down, but bury them, dig them back up, only to do it all over again.

I pray we all learn a very good lesson from all that has transpired here in the last few days. I have seen a very tight knit community, torn apart, with true character ozzing out of many, that before this issue occured, I considered solid members, and would not have hesitated, until now, booking a hunt with. I am in no way, saying they are not solid, but for me, I choose very wisely who I spend my hard earned money, and share a camp with.

Let's all hope we can get over this and move on. This too, shall pass. Kevin

+1

 

[huntermn15]

Woods 1126, So eloquently stated. Time to put this " to bed".

+1

 

[bassasdaindia]

No blood, no trophy fee. Reaction to a shot is subject to one's interpretation and can cause disputes among parties. When there is a contract in place and money at stake, there must be a clear line drawn.
That line is blood.

although I agree with this post , I hunted an impala ram recently and shot at it with a frontal shot with my 416 , the ram jumped and ran for approximately 30m where we found him , there was no blood trail at all .

he only started to bleed when we picked him up.

the shot was close , I would say around 30m and my guess is that the bullet did not have enough time to open correctly at such close range .

 

[BRICKBURN]

although I agree with this post , I hunted an impala ram recently and shot at it with a frontal shot with my 416 , the ram jumped and ran for approximately 30m where we found him , there was no blood trail at all .

he only started to bleed when we picked him up.

the shot was close , I would say around 30m and my guess is that the bullet did not have enough time to open correctly at such close range .

Glad your short search turned up your trophy. Nice when a plan comes together.

 

[ActionBob]

the shot was close , I would say around 30m and my guess is that the bullet did not have enough time to open correctly at such close range .

Excuse me @bassasdaindia I'm by no means a bullet expert but I think I understand basics. And there are some real experts on here so I will welcome their corrections if I'm mistaken......

If you were using a shotgun, yes the pattern opens up as the shot travels farther.... But any bullet, good or bad, would not need distance to "open up".... Or more commonly referred to as "expand". In fact I would expect the complete opposite. At a close range the bullet would still have very high velocity and one would expect a more dramatic expansion!

The bullet is not supposed to open up as it flies through the air. In fact many bullets are advertised with pictures showing less expansion at greater distance... This would be from reduced velocity as speed is shed by air resistance.

I suspect that ram may have turned and fled more quickly than one shot from a greater distance... Heck the muzzle blast probably got him from a 416 at that range! He probable died so fast he did not have time to bleed until you found him! Good shot and great job getting that close.

 

[Jon Glajchen]

Impala very often do not react to the shot, that's why it's always important to carefully check where they were standing for any sign blood, hair etc to make sure that they were actually hit or not!

 

[ActionBob]

I have resisted posting on this thread and really hoped it would come to a peaceful end as I consider both Royal and Loodt close personal friends. In fact I do think (certainly hope!) that both of them have come to a satisfactory agreement and I am positive the two of them have remained not only civil with each other, but Gentlemen.

I do think mistakes were made on both sides, as Royal has readily pointed that out. I'm sure he wishes he had been more forceful one on one with Loodt. Obviously he was not satisfied with the responses he got. But I know he for sure did not want to see this go as far as it did... And I'm sure he did not wish to hurt Loodt's business. However after giving Loodt a nice hunt report, I'm also certain he did want to give all of us the rest of the story. I also think he wanted to get honest feedback for his own understanding, to help Loodt learn, and to share what ever we all could learn form this scenario......

Even though I doubt most will ever admit it, and many may never consciously contribute this thread to any future decisions they make... But I am betting many of the PH's and Outfitters will make different decisions in the future based on having read this thread. And I think we all know clients and potential clients will certainly think twice and ask more questions on future hunts because of this thread! This thread has been a positive thing for hunters and outfitters to learn from in general.

I do think that goes a long ways towards understanding Royal's real motives for starting this... You have to know the guy to understand. He is a better man than me in these ways... He is one of the more valuable members on this board because he is coming to us from his heart and wishes us all the best. He is normally upbeat and jovial and certainly a thoughtful, humble and always interested member.

From Loodt's side, I would say he wants to do what is right. He is young and has a lot to learn... Which outfitter on here is younger and has more to learn than Loodt? Now of course nobody is going to step up and say they have more to learn... So how can you feel good about casting stones? Offering opinions and input, even strong opinions and firm input is good and expected, but when casting stones, please think twice and click once... And think about tempering it a bit just in case you make a mistake (or even 2 or 3) some day.

Loodt may not like to hear me say he has things to learn, but he will understand it as he gets older and gains more life experience. We have all learned a lot at his expense. In my experience with Loodt, he has gone over and above for me and has treated me beyond very well. I whole heartedly wish he had not allowed this issue to happen.

But it did and now it is out here flapping in the wind for the World to see more assuredly than the underwear hanging on the front fence when you pull into the fully booked lodge for lunch on the first day of your first Safari, with your wife who wore her red bra on the flight over!

 

[bassasdaindia]

Excuse me @bassasdaindia I'm by no means a bullet expert but I think I understand basics. And there are some real experts on here so I will welcome their corrections if I'm mistaken......

If you were using a shotgun, yes the pattern opens up as the shot travels farther.... But any bullet, good or bad, would not need distance to "open up".... Or more commonly referred to as "expand". In fact I would expect the complete opposite. At a close range the bullet would still have very high velocity and one would expect a more dramatic expansion!

The bullet is not supposed to open up as it flies through the air. In fact many bullets are advertised with pictures showing less expansion at greater distance... This would be from reduced velocity as speed is shed by air resistance.

I suspect that ram may have turned and fled more quickly than one shot from a greater distance... Heck the muzzle blast probably got him from a 416 at that range! He probable died so fast he did not have time to bleed until you found him! Good shot and great job getting that close.

No offence taken , I am fully aware that bullets do not open in the air , I was referring to the bullet not opening sufficiently within the Impala because of the close distance.

I have hunted hundreds of Impala and this is the first time that I have encountered such a bullet hole / wound cavity . I am not suggesting that I am correct in my assumption , I am only stating with regards to this thread that "there was no blood at all" not at least until we found the Impala.

and I was using a premium brand of bullet !

 

[ActionBob]

and I was using a premium brand of bullet !

Might have been too strong a bullet for an impala, maybe it passed through all the soft mushy parts without hitting solid muscle and bone? Might perform differently on a buffalo, as it was probably intended and designed for.

But hey a dead impala at 30 yards is a dead impala at the end of a very short track!