SOUTH AFRICA: Tootabi Hunting Safaris What Is The Wounded Policy And Billing Issues

[TokkieM]

Gentleman, a mistake is easy to make,calling a 48" Kudu a 50" Kudu is a mistake. Willingly breaking a contract and not being willing to sort it out with the client until the client takes drastic action is NO MISTAKE!! Further more if Loodt was willing to sort out this issue over the past couple of weeks with Royal then there would have been closure sooner.He did not,he knew about it and did nothing. Choices are made and you stand or fall with them,coming clean on AH now means nothing to many folks on here as Loodt had plenty of opportunity to take care of this issue before it escalated. Being young and inexperienced is no excuse for being dishonest,as you rightly say Loodt may be a great guy and good to deal with,as such he of all people should then know the diffrence between right and wrong as he lacks nothing in education and apparent personality.

Those who "back" Loodt won't change their opinion and those who don't won't change it either,it's called making desicions based on facts and experience and we have all made ours clear via this post.

I say it once again,the folks who back Loodt must understand that this is not a mistake,it was a choice and not only did it reflect poorly on Loodt,but on the whole SA hunting industry and that is my main concern, so if I judge too hard in a personal capacity it is from that global point of view in which Loodt is a drop in a bucket,but every drop creates ripples through the entire bucket.
No one is bigger than the industry and no one has the right to negatively affect the lively hood of others by their actions. Judging Loodt on this basis I would say he got off lightly for some folks here.

I can also say that those who support Loodt would like to see this post end positively and those who don't would like it to reflect their opnion. My question will always be how would this have ended for Royal if he did not bring this onto AH and that is the end I would like the post to reflect because that is what anyone in Loodt's position deserves. As is rightly stated above Loodt has now managed to bring a point of contention to AH which has negatively affected not only Royal and himself the SA hunting industry but also managed to bring a divide in a once tight community,on that basis alone I fail to see just one "mistake" was made.

 

[matt85]

I don't care that I don't have hundreds of post counts. If it is true what Loodt said, in my opinion Royal isn't a stand up member.

@flyfishaz you have 8 posts on this forum and half of them have been trolling on this thread.

Royal27 is a well respected member of this forum. you are just a lurker who has taken up trolling. i strongly suggest you resume lurking and refrain from casting judgment on people as it appears you have no talent for it.

-matt

 

[bassasdaindia]

Might have been too strong a bullet for an impala, maybe it passed through all the soft mushy parts without hitting solid muscle and bone? Might perform differently on a buffalo, as it was probably intended and designed for.

But hey a dead impala at 30 yards is a dead impala at the end of a very short track!

very possible , the bullet entered the chest area slightly to the right and exited behind the right hand rib cage .

 

[matt85]

very possible , the bullet entered the chest area slightly to the right and exited behind the right hand rib cage .

if memory serves me right you mentioned you use the 350gr Swift A-frame at 2300fps in your 416 RM. the swift A-frame is notorious for being a very hard bullet which doesn't like to expand much on soft critters at low energy levels. but as said, dead is dead and the critter didn't make it far.

-matt

 

[bassasdaindia]

I would also like to add the following :

in most cases my tracker can see and hear if the animal has been hit or not , they do this every day !

 

[bassasdaindia]

if memory serves me right you mentioned you use the 350gr Swift A-frame at 2300fps in your 416 RM. the swift A-frame is notorious for being a very hard bullet which doesn't like to expand much on soft critters at low velocity. but as said, dead is dead and the critter didn't make it far.

-matt

absolutely correct Matt , and once again I am just highlighting the fact that there was no blood at all , not until we found the animal.

 

[ActionBob]

"there was no blood at all" not at least until we found the Impala.

I know Loodt made a point in his letter about revisiting this policy and lots of discussion both ways has gone on here on the point....

However to come up with a contract that covers all eventualities AND does not take a lawyer to review before signing, can be near impossible. Does an outfitter really want a 10 page contract to throw down in front of his potential client who might take one look and say to hell with that and sign up with someone who takes a simpler approach.

There will always be potential problems when you have something subjective. Pay if you draw blood is simple and straight forward and not open to debate. There is blood or there is not. a piece of meat cut from the animal has blood in it so, there is blood. Hair shaved off, is hair, not blood. Simple and not subjective. And the property owner contract should be the same.

In loodts defense, he was not there and had to take the word of those who were. Both parties made mistakes and I think both have admitted that.

It would have been better had loodt responded sooner and without the fanfare, but I can say when I hunted that big Karroo area, we had very spotty cell reception and no internet at the lodge. We were essentially cut off from the rest of the World for those 3 days.... I loved it and want to go back for a week next time!

 

[TokkieM]

This may be a totally foreign concept to some and I may be opening a whole new can of worms,but I have never signed a single contract with a client. I give them a price based on what they want to hunt and we correspond either by phone or mail ironing out the details of a Safari,but not once,never ever have either myself or a client put pen to paper in signing a contract that stipulates the exact details of his or her hunt, neither have I had a client insist on one.At no stage ever have I had a issue with a bill,a wounded animal or a client walking away not 100% happy with what he paid for. A contract can be settled in court, a reputation is not buildt through paper but through hard honest work and sticking to what you shook hands on. I know, I am old school and letting myself open for a problem later on down the line,but as always we sort it out when it comes up.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

@flyfishaz you have 8 posts on this forum and half of them have been trolling on this thread.

Royal27 is a well respected member of this forum. you are just a lurker who has taken up trolling. i strongly suggest you resume lurking and refrain from casting judgment on people as it appears you have no talent for it.

-matt

I have to say how does FLYFISHASS, blame the client on this one it should never have been a point of contention to begin with...
End of story.
My best always

 

[buchnerl]

As said from the beginning that this is not about the $$$ I have as promised decided to make the $1,200.00 transfer of funds into Mr Mowery's bank account yesterday. It has been done, and I hope he receives it soon

At last I would like to mention that if anyone (being a hunter/client or friend) ever are not happy with the invoice/total that an (Outfitter/ PH or Friend) has billed him or her, please do not wait to be back on home soil before mentioning anything and discussing it as well as clearing it out with the Outfitter before departure.
In this case I knew nothing about the fact that Royal was unhappy and that he objected at so called "wounding"the Blue Duiker until I got informed by friends who is members on AH via Facebook Messenger to see what Royal had posted. According to my understanding he accepted the fact that the animal got away, and that he had wounded it after firing two shots at the Blue Duiker, seeing the reaction of the animal on the shot 13 meters away.

I was at fault, I tried my best and corrected where I could. However there is nothing more that I can do to rescue this situation. Albeit in any further hunts and contracts to be signed be sure to see amendments to the contract and most definitely better clarification especially on the wounded animal section. On invoice side everything would be discussed with a client before it would be printed and accepted as the final invoice/bill.

At last I would like to further say that if I really wanted to screw him out of a couple of bucks I could have done it, however I am not brought up that way, secondly I regarded him a very close friend from who you don't make money out of (especially what he has done for me on my previous and last trip to the US).

Money comes by hard work, perseverance discipline and honesty. There is however no quick fix and get rich easy or fast.

Take care,

Loodt

 

[TokkieM]

Loodt am I correct in understanding then that Royal never brought this up after the hunt? What was your wounded animal policy? Blood to be found as proof?

If I understand correctly there are other gentleman here that have mentioned invoice issues,surely this should have been put to bed sooner?

I don't know about you,but to me a 1200$ is not a couple of bucks,unless you see a Kudu and Springbuck as the monetary equivalent. I am also convinced that to many gentleman here on AH 1200$ constitutes a fair amount of money that they worked pretty darn hard for,in fact it may just be 30% of one of your more afordable packages. By down playing the money amount you do nothing but belittle folks on here. Even if it was only 2$ it was not yours to take.
If you could treat a very close friend this way I shudder to think how the avarage guy will fair in your books.

Loodt,I have nothing personal against you or your hunting operation, it is good to see young guys come through and make things work. We need young blood in the industry. Making the errors and exhibiting the lack of judgement you have done now does not make you a bad person or Outfitter for that matter.It does however reflect badly to the observer.

If I may make a suggestion? You would be very,very wise to get a Pro or old hand at the business to help you streamline your operation and give you some guidance. Being new and inexperienced in business is one thing,making clients pay for those errors are just not on in my book.

Wishing you all the best.

 

[buchnerl]

Below is the only email correspondence I had from Royal. Read it and decide each for his own. ​

From: Tootabi Hunting Safaris [mailto:info@tootabi.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 7:29 AM
To: MOWERY, ROYAL D
Subject: Safari Balance -

Good day Royal,

Thank you for the incoming funds received today. See attached proof of transfer to my account.

However there is a $7.00 balance yet outstanding. Let me know if we can progress and deduct it from your credit card or should you wish to transfer that via wire transfer as well. As indicated before, bank charges on wire transfers, cash deposits or cheques are for the depositors account.

We would appreciate your feedback and further instructions.

Kind regards,

Loodt Büchner

From: MOWERY, ROYAL D []
Sent: 27 May 2015 09:17 PM
To:info@tootabi.com
Subject: RE: Safari Balance -

Loodt,

I’m going to be completely honest with you. I find your coming back with this charge after the fact to be upsetting. After asking for corrections on my bill I re-confirmed the amount with you and told you how I was going to pay and why. I only even tried to pay with a credit card to begin with because that was your preference. I paid a $45 fee on my end, so paying another $45 to pay you $7 doesn’t make sense anyway. We’ve also never discussed an additional fee, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about there.

I actually went looked in the contract and didn’t find the fee you refer to under the payment section and don’t see anything, but maybe I missed it. I did however; see the definition of “wounded animal.” I paid a $1200 trophy fee for an animal where there was no blood drawn on because of the way the PH said it reacted and because I thought it was the right thing to do and didn’t want you to be out the money on my account. And honestly, it perturbed me when you said something to the effect of you would have looked into it, but Jeff had already sent you the bill. You knew the situation, so a bill shouldn’t have had anything to do with it if you wanted to dispute with Jeff, in my opinion. That should have been done as soon as you found out there was no blood if you had an issue with it

If I had it to do over again I would dispute the blue duiker, but I didn’t, and told you I’d pay, so I did and that is that.

Now I’m being asked to pay $7.

Payment

 Full payment of the balance of the total daily rate for the safari is due upon arrival at camp.

 Trophy fees can be settled at the end of the hunt.

 No personal cheques or travellers cheques accepted.

 Payment can be made via Electronic Bank Transfer or USD CASH.

 Feel free to wire a projected total prior to the start of your safari, which can then be topped up at the end of your safari or refunded.

Wounded/Harvested Trophies

Any animal wounded/hit (where blood is drawn) and found OR lost will be deemed as taken. The full trophy fee will apply.

From: Tootabi Hunting Safaris []
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 10:02 AM
To: MOWERY, ROYAL D
Subject: RE: Safari Balance -

Good day Royal,

Thank you for your email below. I appreciate your honesty and feedback, without good and clear communication there would be no successful business anywhere.

There is anyhow no need to be upset, or disturbed as I only enquired about the amount outstanding which is up to date still outstanding on your account with us. $7.00 would not take me or my company out of business, however considering all the rebates/discounts that I have given you, (at my own goodwill), merchandise free of charge, transfers to and from excursions we need to ensure out of a financial perspective that we at least stay in business and not supplement one person’s expense with that of another person’s expenses. My idea on your hunt was to keep costs down as far as possible, being generous and offering a friend who gave me a great time in the US the same on home soil. Therefore I have NOT charged you for most excursion transfers, and days extra.

Furthermore I would like to let you know that it wasn’t me that said you had to do the wire transfer, in fact that is a pain in the butt to me and therefore don’t use that facility anymore. Credit Cards are easy, and everyone uses them these days. When you and I discussed payment in my office day before departure you agreed that Credit Card would be the most convenient for you as well.

Referring to charges for remitters, you would notice that should you click and open the attached pdf. Document you will see that there is written in bold that charges are for remitter. Just as a matter of reference.

I might have expressed myself wrongly but my meaning about Jeff and the wounded Blue Duiker was that I wanted to call him (which I did in fact) to ask because it was wounded if he wouldn’t perhaps have wanted to be generous and just gave us a discount on the animal which I would have passed on to you as a discount. However his answer was no, and I couldn’t do anything about it. When hunting Blue Duiker with shotguns it is unfortunately one of those things where they don’t always show blood, but through their reactions shows whether being hit or missed.

You are welcome to keep the $7.00 and I no need to stress about it at all. Again, no fighting or being cocky. I needed to balance my expenses and therefore asked about the amount leftover, whether it was big or small it is the same thing to me.

Have a great day, and please DO send my regards to Nancy and the boys.

Take care and enjoy the weekend.

Loodt Büchner

From: MOWERY, ROYAL D []
Sent: 30 May 2015 02:53 PM
To: info@tootabi.com
Subject: RE: Safari Balance -

Loodt,

I debated over whether to even respond again, but think I should as I feel you’re missing my point.

To me, this isn’t about the money, it is about the principal behind it and the situations involved, that is, in my opinion, being held to different and conflicting standards.

1. In the case of the fee you asked that I follow the written rule in your documentation. Fair enough.
   
   
2. In the case of the blue duiker you‘re ignoring your own written rule and following an unwritten policy that was never discussed with the client. Not fair, nor in my opinion a good way to conduct business. You should hold yourself to your contract as well. If you had a different agreement with Jeff that should have been your issue, not mine.

Like I stated before, I wouldn’t have paid the trophy fee for the duiker if I had to do it all over again for the reason I gave above. Under your contract I don’t owe it, period. But, I’m a man of my word and I told you I would pay it, so I have. Your “charges for the remitter” is very vague as well. Even now I take that to mean that I pay the charges on my end, which I did. Not some unknown to me charge on your end. I’ve never even seen a charge like that where a bank charges for depositing money and in any case the better way to have done it would have been to call out a wire transfer service fee in your instructions.

I also don’t view the deal you gave me on the safari as having anything to do with this current situation. We agreed to a package and services for that price before the safari. We both knew going in what was expected, or I believe that we did. I don’t believe that I took advantage of the price, or that I tried to get extras within the price. If the price made you lose money then you shouldn’t have offered it. We still would have come at a different price, but would have adjusted excursions and animals in order to meet our budget, simple as that.

I honestly don’t expect you to see and agree with my points today, but do hope that at some point in the future when you’ve gained more experience in business and service that you might. Good luck in your endeavours.

Regards,

Royal

 

[Trap123]

This may be a totally foreign concept to some and I may be opening a whole new can of worms,but I have never signed a single contract with a client. I give them a price based on what they want to hunt and we correspond either by phone or mail ironing out the details of a Safari,but not once,never ever have either myself or a client put pen to paper in signing a contract that stipulates the exact details of his or her hunt, neither have I had a client insist on one.At no stage ever have I had a issue with a bill,a wounded animal or a client walking away not 100% happy with what he paid for. A contract can be settled in court, a reputation is not buildt through paper but through hard honest work and sticking to what you shook hands on. I know, I am old school and letting myself open for a problem later on down the line,but as always we sort it out when it comes up.

I would question whether any of these contracts are really enforceable anyways what with both parties in most cases being on different continents that being said I suppose I am still a little on the old school side and would much prefer to seal the deal with a handshake.it seems to me whether there is a contract or not it still comes down to being necessary to have a great deal of trust between the outfitter PHand client.

for instance I just completed my first safari with an outfitter in Namibia where there was no contract involved just our agreements via emails.(to be fair though I did have some very strong local references)I also wire transferred almost all of the money in advance before I got there so whether I had a contract or not what really could I have done had he just decided not to show up at the airport.on the other hand the outfitter Orpah also has to trust that the client has brought enough money to pay any balance due after the Safari is completed and if he does not what recourse does the outfit really have other than holding the trophies.
it seems to me the more I am learning about this industry that reputation is everything and young Loodts reputation has surely taken a hit.
that being said I believe no man is beyond redemption and with much effort and hard work I sincerely hope Loodt can regain his good reputation and go on to have a successful career.sometimes the most valuable lessons learned come from the worst of our actions

 

[Pheroze]

I have to say I have learned a lot about the industry with this post. I would just like to comment that even those who believe they lead virtous lives have to learn from their mistakes. We can learn way more from our errors than our successes.

If I may make a suggestion? You would be very,very wise to get a Pro or old hand at the business to help you streamline your operation and give you some guidance. Being new and inexperienced in business is one thing,making clients pay for those errors are just not on in my book

Being a mentor is easily the most noble part of any profession. Finding a mentor the hardest. A lot has been accomplished over a pint and sandwich.

 

[Trap123]

one other note,I am reasonably confident in saying that not one of us here hasn't done something that we are not proud of and the measure of a man is how he redeems himself and move forward.

I guess we will just have to wait and see

 

[buchnerl]

@Trap123 I cannot agree more with your last post! Thank you.

 

[JGRaider]

It's a real shame we have to have these types of written contracts at all, but since we all live in the world we live in, run by bottom feeding politicians and lawyers, it is what it is. I'm going to stick to my guns on this one.......I believe Royal thought he wounded the animal. I don't give a crap what the PH did or didn't do, if I'm reasonably sure I wound an animal, I'm paying. That's the way I roll. Then again, once the outfitter and I agree on what package or animals I will hunt, I wire him 100% of the bill, plus tips, plus some extra $$ in case I shoot additional animals. He will have it a week or two before I even get there, paid in full. If anybody is going to take a screwing, it will be me. I haven't had an issue yet, at all.

I've been a small, part time outfitter for 12-13 years now, outfitting for mule deer, antelope, aoudad, whitetails, and varmints in W TX and NM. I've seen many different types come through the door, and I feel like I'm a pretty decent judge of people. I've had some issues with a few of them as well........like the idiot who burned my 4 wheeler to the ground and was pissed only because he didn't get his shooting sticks off the front rack before they burned up......... he had the balls to ask me for a discount on his mule deer hunt because he didn't kill anything.......

 

[BRICKBURN]

This may be a totally foreign concept to some and I may be opening a whole new can of worms,but I have never signed a single contract with a client. ....................

56.(1) comes to mind.

 

[BRICKBURN]

It's a real shame we have to have these types of written contracts at all, but since we all live in the world we live in, run by bottom feeding politicians and lawyers, it is what it is. .....................

It is the law in RSA.

I've had some issues with a few of them as well........like the idiot who burned my 4 wheeler to the ground and was pissed only because he didn't get his shooting sticks off the front rack before they burned up ................

You should learn to maintain your equipment better or buy an idiot proof quad.
(by the way, there is no such thing on the market)

 

[brushmore]

If I understand correctly there are other gentleman here that have mentioned invoice issues,surely this should have been put to bed sooner?

I was one of those and I only brought it up because of the accusations that Loodt was a crook. I'll say this again, it was not an issue! Loodt and I were in agreement on the amount so it was just a simple mistake that was literally corrected in minutes. To complain of such a thing would be the nothing but pedanticalness.

There are some things I would expect from my PH and/or outfitter, being an expert in accounting software is not one of them!