Politics

[mdwest]

I’ve been debating this post for a while now because I’m sure I will be roasted, but here it goes.

Without using the phrase “gods chosen people” tell me why the west should care so deeply about Israel?

-They were a group of people who had spread across the world and hadn’t had their own nation since 580ish BCE. And I mean a nation where they had full autonomy. If we are so concerned about displaced people’s, we aren’t handing the native Americans the keys tot he continent.

-“We worship the same god” Well so does Islam

-There’s the holocaust guilt, but there have been countless genocides before, and since the war without care

-It’s not like the Jews have ever been overly popular people in western society

-I understand the strategic importance of having an ally in the Middle East, but wouldn’t Ukraine be equally an important ally right now as its ground zero in keeping Russia in check?

-The UN HAD to understand the never ending shit storm that creating Israel would bring on the region, no?

And no, I don’t hate Israel, I just don’t care about it, and I don’t understand why I’m supposed to. And I don’t understand why we have to handle them with white gloves, and even the most insignificant slight is anti-Semitic.

Not trying to start a firestorm, just looking for a rational explanation.

Anyone that thinks being anti Israel is by default anti-Semitic doesn’t know much about Israel… if they call you anti-Semitic, they are either dumb or ignorant…

You can indeed be anti semitic and anti Israel.. but the two are not automatically enjoined…

Almost 1/3 of Israel isn’t Jewish… 21% practices Islam.. another 8-10% are Druze… there’s a smattering of Christian’s.. etc etc..

Just under 2/3 of Americans claim Christian faith… if someone is anti American, does that make them automatically anti-Christian?

There are plenty of reasons to dislike Israel as a country that has nothing at all to do with the Jewish faith… they are notorious assholes in the intelligence arena for example and are well known for spying on and stealing from their “friends”… they (government) are notorious for doing business in bad faith.. etc etc…

The “worship the same god” thing simply isnt true… many theologians will tell you that while all three of the primary monotheistic faiths trace their roots to Abraham, that man and/or Satan has perverted Abraham’s faith and that only one faith and that faiths understanding of God is correct. Which one is correct obviously depends on who you talk to… but many Christian’s theologians will tell you that “Allah” is not God at all, and that “Allah” is absolutely not “Yahweh”… there are fundamental differences between the religions in terms of “God’s” attributes that do not allow the other religions versions of “God” to be valid…

I don’t believe there is one strict reason Israel is the “friend” of the Western world”… it’s multi faceted and complex… they clearly hold a strategic value as a balancing tool in the Middle East… there is an affinity for “Gods chosen people” among many Christian’s.. they have shared values with western countries that most Arab countries don’t possess (for example they are a democracy), and there’s a sense of guilt for a number of historical reasons ranging from the holocaust to the colonial context of Israel’s creation…

Additionally, while they have quite the asshole reputation on the “spy” front, they have been a critical partner to most of Europe, the US, and Canada for decades in the intelligence game… if there is a terror plot related to Canada stemming from a jihadist group, rest assured that Mossad or Shin Bet know about it LONG before CSIS does… And historically Israel has been very good about sharing that sort of information with its western friends before things get out of hand..

I can assure you that Canada isn’t getting the same calls from the Saudi, Qatari, Lebanese, Syrian, or Yemeni intelligence agencies..

 

[BlueFlyer]

if there is a terror plot related to Canada stemming from a jihadist group, rest assured that Mossad or Shin Bet know about it LONG before CSIS does… And historically Israel has been very good about sharing that sort of information with its western friends before things get out of hand..

Are they really that good?
They did not know about October 7, and then they did not know about the fire-bombing of a synagogue in Melbourne last year, which has now been attributed directly to Iran Revolutionary Guard.

 

[mdwest]

Are they really that good?
They did not know about October 7, and then they did not know about the fire-bombing of a synagogue in Melbourne last year, which has now been attributed directly to Iran Revolutionary Guard.

Is the CIA good? They missed 9/11…

Everyone misses every now and again… even the best..

They did manage to drop a warhead on top of the Ayatollah recently (they knew exactly where he was and exactly what munition to drop and what platform to drop it from)… then they managed to strike the group that gathered to elect a new “Supreme Leader” while they were counting votes.. and then managed to knock a leg off the brand new supreme leader…

Let’s not forget most of Hamas’s leadership getting their balls blown off by cell phones that Israel had planted, and had actively been planting and monitoring for years…

Or the mossad assassination in Dubai in 2010 of the Hamas military commander..

The list of their exploits is very, very long…

They are absolutely among the best in the world at offensive cyber operations and signals intelligence gathering..

And they do that with a fraction of the budget of Chinas MSS, Russias FSB, or the US’s CIA/NSA/DIA (family of intel agencies)…

When you look at the population, economies, and budgets of the countries that are considered to have top tier intelligence capabilities… Israel is among the smallest.. and they are still considered on par or better than the majority of the top 10…

You also have to consider that “good” is a relative term…

Australias national intelligence community also missed the Melbourne fire bombing… and that attack took place on their home turf… if they knew about it there is zero doubt they would have taken some sort of action..

What Australia doesn’t know is whether Shin Bet or Mossad knew about it or not… it’s certainly possible they missed it… or.. they don’t have enough assets to monitor the entire globe and Australia is a low priority to them…

Or..

That they knew and chose not to say anything…

Again.. they are known assholes in the intel game..

Maybe it was in their national strategic interest to keep Australia pissed off at Iran?

 

[SaintPanzer]

OK, I'll play silly games.

I find it interesting that people are quoting the figure of "70,000" without questioning who provided that estimate, and how accurate it may or may not be. Maybe that's picking nits, and I'm just being pedantic again, but I think it's at least worth discussing.

I take mdwest's point on them being a bit, shall we say, "unfriendly" in their spying operations. I'm not defending them, and I think they've crossed the line more than once, but I also know that countries don't have friends, they have interests. And it's important to know the difference.

That said, I'll take a shot at answering the "why should I care" question. To me, just a simple minded guy, it's simple. In that part of the world, they actually have a representative form of government. Not a kingdom, not a dictatorship, not a politburo, but something that may be described as part of a "western" system. If you are like me and believe that western civilization has something to offer to the world, then you realize that's something to protect, or at least to be valued. It's kind of like the one flower growing in a garden of weeds.

In very loose terms (and I'm willing to admit it's not direct, but close), it falls under my personal rule number 24: "Don't waste good." That falls right between rule # 23: "Dark is not a flavor". and number 25: "If someone thinks they have the upper hand, break it.".

For the record, rule number 23 was invented as a response to those heathens who will say "I don't like dark beer", but can't explain why, other than to say the beer is dark.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Maybe it was in their national strategic interest to keep Australia pissed off at Iran?

Some have a theory that Israel knew there was indeed a planned attack coming before Oct 7th. But not the how and where.

Some even suggest Israel knew and allowed the Oct 7 attack to happen so Israel would finally be given full rein against Hamas.

Also the CIA knew there was a very large attack planned before 9-11. They were watching for several different type of attacks. It is now well documented that the U.S. intelligence agencies and FBI did have most of the attack details. Each holding a different piece of the puzzle. But each department did not share the pieces they held to solve the larger puzzle.

 

[hyipl]

 

[Scott CWO]

Scott CWO...I suggest you get off your high horse..

Let us see how this play out for the global economy..

350 tankers, 280 bulk carriers and 370 other ships presently stranded in or near the gulf..

Ditto. Perhaps take your own advice! See how it turns out instead of talking crap. I have been RESPONDING to your posts.

 

[Aaron N]

Are they really that good?
They did not know about October 7, and then they did not know about the fire-bombing of a synagogue in Melbourne last year, which has now been attributed directly to Iran Revolutionary Guard.

They do always say there were no Jews in the twin towers on 9/11.

 

[skydiver386]

They do always say there were no Jews in the twin towers on 9/11.

Yup, they told everyone except the Goy's.

 

[Pondoro]

Trump says he might have 'forced Israel's hand' in Iran strike decision as critics question war powers

President Donald Trump claimed Iran's supreme leader was planning to attack first, justifying joint U.S.-Israel strikes against the country without congressional approval.

www.foxnews.com

Now he claim that he believed Iran "would attack first.." With what..? Where..?

Does he really think the world is buying his crap..?

At least he admits that Israel did not try to force an attack..it was the other way around.

 

[wesheltonj]

Trump says he might have 'forced Israel's hand' in Iran strike decision as critics question war powers

President Donald Trump claimed Iran's supreme leader was planning to attack first, justifying joint U.S.-Israel strikes against the country without congressional approval.

www.foxnews.com

Now he claim that he believed Iran "would attack first.." With what..? Where..?

Does he really think the world is buying his crap..?

At least he admits that Israel did not try to force an attack..it was the other way around.

"With what" - How about all that enriched uranium. Where - Israel for sure.

"Buying his crap" - Iran has been saying death to America and death to Israel for the last 47 years. They have been funding terrorism around the world.

Trolling this morning?

 

[Pondoro]

I thought the Irani nuclear program was crushed last summer..? Who is fooling who here..?

 

[Betterinthebush]

I’m laying up insulation in a flipper house in near dark under a tornado warning this morning and smashed my left forefinger with a staple hammer. And yet, even that is not as painful as taking breaks to read @Pondoro posts.

 

[Pondoro]

Poor baby..

 

[Brent in Az]

Vikings were pretty woke for their time

Viking society was not matriarchal
; it was an overwhelmingly patriarchal society, but for its time, it was remarkably progressive, granting women significant autonomy, property rights, and legal agency. While men dominated politics and fighting, women ran the household, could own land, initiate divorce, and manage estates while men were away raiding.

You can buddy up with Pondoro, and add this to the dust bin of stupid comments.

 

[skydiver386]

I thought the Irani nuclear program was crushed last summer..? Who is fooling who here..?

The enrichment program was certainly bombed hard, but the material they already had left was enough to build several warheads. Most news networks have covered this.

 

[Pondoro]

I have sincere doubts that Iran is/was putting together a nuclear device at this point.

 

[Brent in Az]

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I will put my faith in US and Israeli intelligence over your "sincere doubts"...

 

[HuntingGold]

General Jack Keane was just on Fox and reminded the viewers this was a military operation with limited objectives, to which those are being achieved. He went on to discuss the straights of Hormuz and the "request" for assistance in getting the ships moving again. I hope that video clip becomes available and can be posted soon. It would be valuable for those outside the US to view.