PHASA Captive Bred Lion Hunting

Discussion in 'Articles' started by saeng101, Nov 24, 2017.

  1. SafariA

    SafariA AH Veteran

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    IDARAM . Thank you very much . I would merely like everybody to come to their own conclusion. That way nobody can influence your think on this.

    I will post the updated resignations tomorrow. There were mentions of droves of resignations. This currently totals 44 out of 1200 members. Of these 44 only 33 are voting members.

    This should give some perspective. Their were also allegations of a COUP ..... Someone even said he had on it on good authority that this was 2 years in the planning. Pretty poor effort if it took 2 years for more than 95 % to dethrone the less than 5 % .

    It makes you think doesnt it .....

    One more note .... 5 out of the current EXCO members have never hunted a Captive Bred Lion .
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
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  2. Hank2211

    Hank2211 AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Exactly. If you look at what PHASA actually did, it related to captive bred lion hunting, as conducted by those who follow the rules. This is not canned hunting.

    PHASA has not come out in favour of ‘canned hunting’ as we know it, to my knowledge. Yet those who have gotten on their high horse insist on using ‘canned hunting’ when talking about what PHASA has done. This is calculated to get the attention of the media, and to provide yet another fund raising opportunity for the antis.

    Why are they doing this? They are not stupid. They know the difference. Yet they continue giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
     
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  3. Hank2211

    Hank2211 AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Actually Red Leg, I don’t agree. I am aware that released lions have been able to hunt game and feed themselves. I also have little doubt that if you put a lioness in with a male, he will pretty quickly figure out what to do.

    That’s how I define self sufficient. The ability to feed yourself and reproduce. How do you define it?
     
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  4. IvW

    IvW AH Elite

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    A self-sustaining/sufficient population could be defined as one that can replenish itself over a period of time(which quite obviously is not possible within 30 days).

    Even if they have been released the 30 day's minimum period before being shot, they will have to really shake a leg to kill, breed and raise a litter in 30 day's.

    You live in a dream world if you think that lions on these 8 selected/approved properties are released to roam free and become self sustaining/sufficient and establish a pride.

    99.99% of these lions are released with the sole purpose of being hunted and if the rules are followed, (that nobody takes responsibility for to actually police and check that this is actually the case) and you are happy with hunting such a CBL released lion, that is up to the individual to decide, however it is quite obvious to know that this is by no means a self sustaining/sufficient lion population.

    If these same CBL lions are released on a large enough property with the intent of establishing a lion population and they then become self sustaining/sufficient over a number of years to the point where their numbers are sufficient to allow them being hunted, then it is a entirely different situation.

    I consider myself to be an ethical hunter and I will not partake in put and take shooting of animals, no matter what species they are.

    Please do not condemn hunters who have higher ethical hunting standards than yourself and label them as being part of the problem in giving the "enemy" aid and comfort, this title is more appropriate to the less ethical hunters.

    There are no clear cut answers to all these questions. The only acceptable answers will be determined by the ethical slant and sensitivity of the person answering these questions and statements.

    If anybody is pro CBL, go for it they are legal(if released 30 days before the hunt), for the other hunters who think it is not ethical and fair chase hunting(like myself) then do not participate in such a "hunt".

    We ethical hunters are definitely not pro "anti".
     
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  5. LivingTheDream

    LivingTheDream AH Legend

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    LOL! Come on man, this is making it a bit personal. We are never going to be able to define ethics and CBL will not be the standard for ethics. Because you don't hunt CBL doesn't make you ethical or as a group ethical hunters.

    Btw no one is saying those who don't support CBL are anti. When someone makes a statement on a public forum saying all hunters who do this aren't ethical, it gives the anti's a quote.
     
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  6. Hank2211

    Hank2211 AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    I was more or less with you until the last line . . .

    Are the rest of us unethical hunters?

    But let's leave that aside (for the moment).

    I say more or less because while I can see your case for your definition of 'self sustaining', I'm not sure that those words have to be read as requiring the possibility of multiple generations. After all, and not to play lawyer (too much), 'self' doesn't, at least on a strict interpretation, require or include subsequent generations The fact that I can sustain myself means I can look after myself. I don't think it is necessary that I also be able to reproduce (although, to be very clear, I have done that, if my wife is to be believed!).

    I think we also need to be very clear that if your definition of 'self sustaining' is adopted, there will be many game areas in South Africa, including I would venture sponsors of this site, which would fail the test, at least for some of the animals on their properties. Buffalo, Sable and Roan are obvious examples which come to mind. The breeding animals (if there are any on the property) are generally kept safely away from hunters, while the animals to be hunted are released into the hunting areas. I suppose they might, as a matter of possibility, be around there long enough to reproduce, assuming they aren't shot first and that females could be found. In my experience, this is reasonably unlikely, as the females will generally be kept for breeding, at least so long as they are capable of it, and away from hunters.

    This takes me back to your closing line. I accept that you may choose not to hunt these types of animals, although I wonder about just how much due diligence is done to ascertain the exact status of every animal you pursue in South Africa . . . . do you know that females of every species you hunt are present? And how long they've been there? But let's leave that aside. I accept your bona fides on the issue. But you need to understand that this is the basis of much of the game ranching industry in South Africa, and once we began to tar this with a broad brush which says "unethical," we risk much of the gains which wildlife has made under the South African (and Namibian) game ranching model.

    Let me be clear, if I'm not. This is not to support a put-and-take type of operation, where one selects a buffalo from some pictures and then the beast is released on a property to be shot. I don't think that type of structure is necessary or integral to the South African model, but do we at least agree that as game breeding - from buffalo to springbok - has become a big business, game ranchers have evolved their practices from complete "laissez faire'" to more 'hands on'? And if so, when does the 'hands on' model become so 'hands on' that it becomes unethical in your view? I mean, one of the advantages of this model - I'll leave it for others to decide if this is a virtue - is that it has brought the price of hunting down to a level where all but perhaps lions and elephants are within reach of virtually anyone.

    I don't think these are easy questions, and I don't think there are easy answers. This is what annoys me about those who have leapt to attack PHASA's actions. If anything, they say they are actually going to pay attention to the type of lion hunting that goes on, rather than ignore it completely as was the case prior to this vote. They are now in a position to influence SAPA, and impact the economic livelihood of those breeders who don't conform to reasonable standards. Isn't that better?

    By the way, I consider myself an ethical hunter. And I've hunted captive bred lions.
     
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  7. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris AH ENABLER SPONSOR Since 2013 AH Legend

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    I have witnessed first hand that they kill within a day from their release date. They will adapt and survive in the process of becoming self sustaining, as has been proven.

    Why? There are already two areas in South Africa that has successfully done this. I hunt Lion on one of these areas. These lions have formed prides, had cubs and the owner has lost Giraffe and Buffalo to the lions among other species.
     
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  8. Hunting Sailor

    Hunting Sailor SILVER SUPPORTER AH Enthusiast

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    When people’s ethics comes into play it always turn personal.
    Everybody has ethics and none is “higher”, as nobody (that I know of) would say “I have lower ethics than you”. Different, but not higher nor lower.

    It seems that a lot of people goes into discussions and arguments with the aim to put dirt on the other persons views and opinions and it turns really dirty and personal.
    The hunting traditions and rules are so far apart depending on where in the world you are and what is accepted is widely spread, let alone between different people.
    In Sweden you hunt with dogs to chase moose and deer, doing the same thing for antelope and big cats in South Africa is “unethical”, but can be done with pigs and smaller cats. In Central Africa you can hunt antelope (Bongo) with dogs.
    In Sweden there is a minimum bullet weight and energy to hunt moose, but nothing in North America, as far as I know.
    However you can hunt from the back of a bakkie in South Africa, but that will put you in jail in Sweden. In some areas in North America I understand that the last item that can be hauled out has to be the trophy, if not you may face severe fines.
    As long as you hunt the Impala in the Eastern Cape you can use any means to kill it, as there is no place any Impala “should” be that is not under adequate enclosure and thereby they are domesticated and therefor someone could harvest them in the most efficient way. Go across the border to KZN and there may be limits of what to use etc.

    Is any of these rules making the other areas that don’t follow the rules unethical? Or just different?

    CBL is very sensitive and brings lots of questions to the table and I like to hear about the factual arguments from both sides.

    I always appreciate when someone takes a stand and is telling me why he/she has a certain view and the benefits of that view or stand point, rather than explaining why another standpoint is wrong and telling me what I must do or think.

    I appreciate all of your inputs and views and I enjoy listening to and reading arguments and discussions that are factual.

    //Gus
     

  9. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    Actually Hank, If you really want to have a semantics argument about “self sufficiency”and “self-sustaining” I will concede it to you. However, these captive bred, potentially self-sufficient lions - which could be used as the basis of self-sustaining populations - the older and excess members of which could form the basis of an ethically hunted population - aren’t used that way very often. They are released and shot because very few ranchers either have sufficient ground to allow lions to be self-sufficient very long, or they don’t see the value of such an effort - or expense - as long as someone is willing to pay to kill the thing regardless of how it was raised. It also allows relatively small ranches to get in on the lion shooting windfall - particularly if they aren’t too worried about the 30-day requirement or membership in specific organizations.

    I don’t know the answer to this. I do not believe shooting CB lions does the image of hunting and hunters a lot of good. Moreover, I resent being expected to defend a practice I personally find ethically questionable. I also reject the argument that objecting to shooting CB lions plays into the hands of the antis. If that were the case, then aren’t I allowing my ethical beliefs to be hijacked by others, and aren’t we conceding we really can’t or won’t police ourselves - whatever the issue?

    And I get the complexity of this. I enjoy pigeon shooting - in a ring. It is an ethically challenged practice - why it is illegal in many states. I justify it personally because the birds are essentially feathered rats trapped in areas where they cause real harm. But I fully understand if it is not for others, and we’re it in the public eye, it would likely be a practice best suspended. It is hard to justify using any of the arguments we normally use to support hunting. The same is true of CB lions.

    I do believe PHASA trying to impose some sort of order to this practice is likely a good thing - however the decision was made. I think it recognizes the fact that as long as shooting CB lions remains legal, people will do it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017

  10. IdaRam

    IdaRam SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    To piggy back on what @Hunting Sailor has already said,
    I consider myself an ethical hunter. I don’t want to be an unethical hunter. I abide by the law and have turned in and helped convict those who do not. I believe I am who I am because my values and moral compass tell me that if I am going to be able to feel good about myself and sleep at night I must behave in a certain way. I am clear in my own mind about the person I want to be and I strive to be that person.
    I know I am in good company. I enjoy this community because I feel like I am surrounded by like minded people.
    There is a difference, a dramatic one in my mind, in saying that you disagree with the practice of hunting (fill in the blank) or hunting in a certain way, and saying those who do so are unethical hunters or have a lower standard of ethics than yourself. This changes a personal choice you have made for yourself about what you view as acceptable for your own conduct into a moral and ethical judgement about that individual choice others have made for themselves, so long as the practice is legal. If you disagree with the legality of the practice, then work to change the law. If you wish to speak against the ethics of such activity, fine. By all means speak your mind. But when you elevate your ethical decision above others and put yourself on a pedestal as a MORE ethical hunter than others who have made a different personal decision it seems that is crossing a line. It becomes a personal issue in which you are criticising a persons character and ethics rather than disagreeing with an activity.
    As has been said above, what is legal and culturally acceptable varies greatly by culture and region. If we apply our own personal views with a broad brush, we will simply find so many differences we’ll be forever divided.
    How many of us here on this forum make different choices about what is ethical for ourselves personally when it comes to hunting? How about from the following list?
    Hound hunting for bear and mountain lion
    Baiting for bear
    Baiting for deer
    Hound hunting for deer
    Baiting for deer
    High fence hunting for deer and elk
    High fence hunting for pig, mouflon, goat, blackbuck, oryx, etc
    Fur trapping
    Pen raised pheasant hunting
    Prairie dog shooting
    Night hunting of leopard
    Night huntng in general
    Archery hunting
    Elephant hunting
    Polar bear hunting
    High fence hunting in South Africa

    The list could go on and on and we could find more things to disagree on. If we look upon each other as unethical or “less” ethical if we choose to engage in any of these practices I guess we will eventually view every single one of our fellow hunters as unethical. Is that a winning strategy?
     

  11. LivingTheDream

    LivingTheDream AH Legend

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    @IdaRam +1 to your post!!! The list at the end is exactly what I was thinking. We could argue all day on the ethics of things and tear each other apart.
     
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  12. Hank2211

    Hank2211 AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Red Leg, I don’t want to offend you - we agree on a lot more than we disagree.

    But let me start by saying that I wasn’t looking for a semantic argument, but you told me my definition of ‘self sustaining’ was wrong. So I felt obliged to differ . . .

    But on to more important things. You note that very few ranchers ever allow lions to even come close to being self sufficient. I agree, and that’s a real shame. If PHASA can certify places that at least abide by the law, that would be a start. An even better start would be if places like Bubye Valley Conservancy, which complained it had several hundred surplus wild lions and would have to pay to cull them, provided reasonably priced hunting opportunities to those who would take them. I looked into it, and at the time they were complaining, they wanted north of $75,000 for a hunt.

    Now, on to your most important point. You note that you resent being expected to defend a practice you don’t agree with. If that is in fact the case, I understand your resentment. But couldn’t you just say nothing, or, as someone on this thread said, “it’s not for me, but to each their own”?

    As an example, baiting black bears is legal in Alberta, where I live. Lots of people believe it’s unethical to bait bears, or any other animal. I don’t know about that. I do know that having tried it, I don’t like it much, and I wouldn’t spend a lot of energy defending the practice. But if you enjoy it, then by all means.

    I could name other practices which some on this site have said are unethical from time to time - hunting leopard with dogs; shooting at night with spotlights, or shooting from vehicles. All illegal where I live. I won’t spend much energy defending these practices, although where legal, I’ve engaged in them from time to time.

    But I will spend energy defending the ability of hunters - or shooters - to hunt in a way which is legal.
     
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  13. siml

    siml AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    I am so glad I was in the bush hunting without signal when this all broke.

    We might not like to hear it, but SA is slowly killing the hunting industry.

    We need to stop pretending we helping conservation, we NOT!! This put and take hunting needs to stop!! Real wild animals are going to be eradicated.
     

  14. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    My only comment would be, if one of these practices that you listed, is, in your opinion, truly harmful to continued public acceptance/toleration of hunting, then I believe it would be ethically irresponsible not to voice that concern.
     
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  15. firehuntfish

    firehuntfish AH Fanatic

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    Before I go off half-cocked, I would ask you to please clarify your statement... Are you saying that all outfitters operating in the RSA are collectively killing the hunting industry in Africa, and that all RSA outfits are put & take? Or, are you only referring to the practice of captive bred lion hunting in RSA specifically?
     

  16. IvW

    IvW AH Elite

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    It is not a question about one person's ethics being higher or lower than the others. Each person lays down his own set of rules or ethics when he hunts.

    Seeing as we are talking about CBL hunting this is how I see it and it should be quite simple to understand.

    For me personally shooting a lion that has been hand raised in a small enclosure and then released for the sole purpose of being shot 30 days later is not hunting. It is not fair chase ethical hunting and brings me no satisfaction in the hunt. In my opinion it is merely put and take shooting.
    For me this is not acceptable and it is unethical.

    If you have no issues with that and you decide this is hunting and it meets your ethical standard you have set for yourself then that is your choice. I will not hold that against you.

    However in my viewpoint I will not consider you an ethical hunter, with regards to CBL hunting, for the simple fact that to me CBL hunting is unethical and not fair chase and I am not willing to participate in it.

    Lastly hunting from the back of a vehicle is illegal in South Africa but unfortunately nobody enforces the law and many PH's and Outfitters have their vehicles specially equipped with fancy shooting racks and padding and allow clients to shoot animals of the back of the truck even though it is against the law. Just another example of a practice that in my opinion is unethical and not fair chase. Again if that type of "hunting" floats your boat go for it, but again it is not for me.
     
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  17. LivingTheDream

    LivingTheDream AH Legend

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    Everyone has so missed the point. CBL doesn't matter. Personal ethics and moral obligation to speak up due to what the public might think is not the issue. We can't sit here and argue our own ethics, condemn one another, and say that isn't hunting, or there is no room for that, or it isn't fair chase. We are losing big time, we don't message correctly mostly because we can't all agree. No one...and I mean no one..really cares about CBL lions...Cecil was wild. The outrage was over a wild lion, people get upset about wild lions...they don't understand CBL hunting. There is a difference.

    Here is an article discussing how Cecil was an unethical hunt, though we know now it was legal, the person who wrote the article is a hunter!

    http://billingsgazette.com/lifestyl...cle_c8f71b42-ff17-50d4-a34a-62182156d113.html

    Here is a quote, "The public looks at baiting as unethical even though a lot of hunters, especially archers, have rationalized it as business as usual.

    Baiting will be hard to justify under the public spotlight"

    There is so many ethical dilemma, does using archery equipment make it more ethical and then you subtract ethical points for baiting to get them in archery range. Animals rightist will tell you that archery is more ethical (more fair chase) but less humane due to the lie the animal suffers. Btw that aritcle was the first to pop up on a Google search for "is baiting lions ethical".

    I know I am rambling and ranting but everyone's ethics are subjective, what is not subjective is that the animal rightist want all hunting over. They would rather stop wild lion hunting than CBL, CBL is the stepping stone.

    Everyone better enjoy hunting wild game now because it is changing, guys wait 20 years to draw an elk tag, never draw a sheep tag, the population in Africa is expanding, it is not going to get cheaper. How many guys have lost a hunting lease in the last 10 years? I don't want to be the old man telling his grandkids what it used to be like.
     
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  18. Hunting Sailor

    Hunting Sailor SILVER SUPPORTER AH Enthusiast

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    and the only one who got the point is you?
    That’s about as stirring as talking about CBL or the benefits of a .30-06 over a 270Win..... ;-)

    //Gus
     
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  19. LivingTheDream

    LivingTheDream AH Legend

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    @Hunting Sailor I literally laughed out loud. I didn't say I didn't miss it too. I can tell you younger me definitely missed it.

    As far as your second point, how dare you say the 30-06 has benefits over 270, everyone knows the 270 is better...

    And Hornady Dangerous Game rounds are the best!

    Yeah that should cover it now.
     

  20. Hunting Sailor

    Hunting Sailor SILVER SUPPORTER AH Enthusiast

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    Very well stated and worded, backing up the views with reasons.
    I doubt anyone has ever felt that you’re unclear in any of your answers.

    Thanks for your straight-forwardness.

    The last part about the bakkie shooting goes just to show how different the view of the different practices are, even where the regulations states something, the practice can show something else.

    I have shot antelopes from the back of a bakkie. It was the first time I was hunting in the Kalahari. “Everybody” did it and I followed along. Today I would not do it and call it hunting. Harvesting meat, reducing or perhaps managing the herd, but I would not class it as hunting.
    This is my view and I stand for that when I go out hunting I don’t want to have that experience. I want to have the chase on foot after an animal that can disappear in between the bush and I stand a better than average chance of not bagging it.

    My values changes as I develop and learn more about the things I deal with. They can grow stronger or weaker due to having an open mind about the subject and to listen to other’s view.

    Sorry to go off topic, so back to the CBL and PHASA.

    //Gus
     
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