Ethics, what would you do?

Royal27

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Not sure if I'm reading you accurately, in regards to my assumptions toward this Client but, I do not assume he is possessed of any ethics as we know the meaning of that word, whatsoever.

Yeah, I knew that was what you meant. I didn't word my response very well. My point was more that any rules or guidelines, or contract signed wouldn't mean much to someone who had zero ethics, at least if he thought he could get away with it. So that having clearly defined the rules prior would have been moot most likely.
 

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Yeah, I knew that was what you meant. I didn't word my response very well. My point was more that any rules or guidelines, or contract signed wouldn't mean much to someone who had zero ethics, at least if he thought he could get away with it. So that having clearly defined the rules prior would have been moot most likely.

At least if you define the rules/stipulations of the agreement beforehand it is clear and then you (PH) know the hunter is in breach of the contract and you are not stuck guessing about how to apply ethics.
 

Royal27

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At least if you define the rules/stipulations of the agreement beforehand it is clear and then you (PH) know the hunter is in breach of the contract and you are not stuck guessing about how to apply ethics.

Agree completely. I'm assuming (and you know what that does....) that the client just didn't care. It certainly could be a bad assumption.
 

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It is unfortunate that you then will not have the opportunity to hunt with an SCI measurer like myself or B&C measurer like Brickburn. We value the tape but value the game even more. Lumping us in with the miscreant this thread was started about is just another wedge driven between hunters with slightly different "tastes" or goals shall we say, despite still having the same morals. When we categorize each other like this to the point of exclusion we become weak, and we all know we need to be strong for all our sakes.

Hi Diamondhitch,

I am pretty sure you and Brickburn are great people, well spoken, above average intellect, etc., and I am not trying to pick a fight with you two or anyone else here.

But, my experiences with people who find their motivation in tape measures, record books, "gold medal awards", and whatever else such things are called., are not my people, no offense intended.

I do not see my dissent on this topic as weakening anything (but, if I had any sense at all I should have known that somebody would get their feathers ruffled when I voiced my opinion on the tape measure subject).

RE: "we become weak" ... to the contrary, I feel our stock goes up as hunters when, non-hunters have admitted to me that they have to agree with the notion that, "at least some of us hunters go for the adventure, the camaraderie of like minded people and take pride in preparing the game meat as something of a delicacy and furthermore, at least we are feeding our families/friends meat that is free of hormones, antibiotics, synthetic coloring, etc."

In the case of Africa, we can add that in some cases, at least a few very poor folks get to have meat in their diet from the safari trade that they either would not get at all or else it could potentially be from a rhino calf, etc., snared by the village poacher (non-hunters sometimes can be led toward the light and thereby conclude the wisdom in that).

Even if some of the tape measure crowd does all of that as well (but I have seen that some do not care one wit for the above concepts), the general public tends to frown on the fact that any animal is hunted primarily for it's horns, antlers, tusks.

That is offensive to the average Joe who is not necessarily an anti-hunter but is merely not a hunter themselves (I have both relatives and neighbors as well of that description).

I'm not bending to anti-hunters because they are haters and haters love to hate, there is nothing all the Biltong Hunters in the world can do to change their tormented little brains.

But for the main-stream person who is neither a hunter or an anti-hunter, the non-trophy hunter is something of an ambassador - IMO.

There is a cultural war on, it is being fought savagely with propaganda and we are loosing.

Hopefully we can agree to disagree on this specific point and remain friendly enough to discuss other topics from time to time.

Kind Regards,
Velo Dog.
 
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Velo Dog

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Yeah, I knew that was what you meant. I didn't word my response very well. My point was more that any rules or guidelines, or contract signed wouldn't mean much to someone who had zero ethics, at least if he thought he could get away with it. So that having clearly defined the rules prior would have been moot most likely.

OK gotcha, and that is why Civil Courts always seem to be booked up solid - unfortunately.
 

Clayton Holland

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Regarding the tape for me the differentiation comes in when the tape becomes the puppet master. I have no issue when a guy chases a certain measurement but I take issue when someone forsakes basic ethics to secure it. I see it fairly often where guys use methods that I would not not even consider hunting to secure a big trophy. This as opposed to the guy who goes out when he can, hunts hard and true and passes up lesser animals looking for that record animal some times for years or for his whole life. He is still driven by the tape but not allowed his hunt to be corrupted by it. I realise commercial constraints come into it these days but I don't see this as cause to forsake ethics. In closing I see that the tape is like gold. Can be good, even beautiful but apt to have a strange effect on some.
 

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...Hopefully we can agree to disagree on this specific point and remain friendly enough to discuss other topics from time to time.

Kind Regards,
Velo Dog.

We always remain civil around here. :)
 

Velo Dog

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I don't mind the rant. It is one of the major down falls of the book and all the rules. They will be misused and abused by some.

The miscreant focusing on being "in the book" to exclusion of responsible behaviour is exactly what gives other hunters a bad name.

If you don't like to hunt with guys jabbering about the details on a tape that's ok. I don't like to hunt with party animals who drink too much and I'm allergic to smokers. To each his own.

I've never entered my "record book" animals in ANY book. I just use the science to help tell me what kind of animal I have. Trophy hunting allows me to be more selective and increases the challenge of MY hunt. That is how I expand my hunting experiences.

The miscreant in this sad tale is more interested in the ink in the book than the animal. That is not me.
However, I can see how you might generalize and associate other with hunters who can use a tape measure as a tool. :)

Hi Brickburn,

I do not want to pick a fight with you or any other person here but I feel my opinion is valid, as it is based primarily on my personal experiences in many years of hunting and fishing.

Let me just say that we as hunters have a huge PR problem in the eyes of the general public, (not counting the anti-hunters because they love to hate and will not be stopped by anything you or I or millions more like us could say to them).

As for those types who tend to party hardy, drink too much, get loud and quarrelsome, smoke cigarettes or chew tobacco at the dinner table (believe me I have seen all of that), I am totally with you.

It's not the trophy hunter types jabbering about centimeters and fractions of inches that rubs me wrong, (it does get boring though), more accurately it is their over-doing the chest beating thing in my face when they luck-up and shoot something unusual, that I get tired of.

Worse yet is the type that pouts for the rest of the trip if they did not get the biggest or the most or whatever.

I promise you I have seen all that from grown men and then some.

I do not figure you are like that and if I have offended you with my opinion on this topic, I truly apologize.

Hopefully we can just agree to disagree on it and remain on friendly terms.

If you and/or Diamondhitch ever make it up to Anchorage, please look me up and I will buy you guys lunch.

Kind Regards,
Velo Dog
 

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...I have no issue when a guy chases a certain measurement but I take issue when someone forsakes basic ethics to secure it...

I couldn't agree more

...I see it fairly often where guys use methods that I would not even consider hunting to secure a big trophy...

This goes both ways, ie poaching or, as I do, living out of a bivy sack with no sleeping bag on the side of a mountain in driving rain, unwilling to shoot a barely legal ram in pursuit of a monster. Both are methods most would not use.

...This as opposed to the guy who goes out when he can, hunts hard and true and passes up lesser animals looking for that record animal some times for years or for his whole life. He is still driven by the tape but not allowed his hunt to be corrupted by it...

Definitely the mark of a true trophy hunter, not killing an "inferior" animal just to fill a tag or prove he is the man. (inferior meaning it does not measure up to the individuals standards, not that it is unworthy of hunting in any way)
 

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Regarding the tape for me the differentiation comes in when the tape becomes the puppet master. I have no issue when a guy chases a certain measurement but I take issue when someone forsakes basic ethics to secure it. I see it fairly often where guys use methods that I would not not even consider hunting to secure a big trophy. This as opposed to the guy who goes out when he can, hunts hard and true and passes up lesser animals looking for that record animal some times for years or for his whole life. He is still driven by the tape but not allowed his hunt to be corrupted by it. I realise commercial constraints come into it these days but I don't see this as cause to forsake ethics. In closing I see that the tape is like gold. Can be good, even beautiful but apt to have a strange effect on some.

Very well said Clayton Holland, very well said indeed and I applaud you both for your philosophy as well as for your ability to put it well yet brief into writing (unlike a certain, over-wordy Velo Dog I could mention here).
 

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You said it very eloquently Clayton..(y)
 

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In my opinion the PH should have made it clear that the animal was wounded and that someone WAS going to put it down. As mentioned the contract would stipulate that wounded animals would be paid for.
The guy with the bow doesn't sound like he has ethics....but the PH should always have them.
My two cents worth!
 

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Folks, the contract always states wounded animals will be paid for and lost animals too,but with my limited understanding I can't see how a animals is lost unless it was wounded. Now any smart Lawyer will argue the point that this Sable may have been wounded,but at no point was it lost,both PH and client had eyes on the animal. So the client was legally under no pressure,he was a first class a..hole,but he was not legally obliged to pay if the PH shot his animal,unless the contract stipulated "no undue suffering will be allowed" not even the word ethical is going to stand up in court as we among ourselves cannot agree on what is or what is not ethical.
The PH was screwed when this particular client set foot on Africans soil,no PH is going to shoot a Sable on a PH dayfee and no PH is going to court over it not only because he does not have the money to do so,but who will employ or hunt with a PH that sues a client?
In a perfect world we will have perfect clients,Outfitters and PH's, this won't happen and the best we can do is put the word out there and name and shame the culprits in any of the above categories. AH has done a great job of bringing to light the issues surrounding the whole industry and as long as guys like Jerome,Brickburn and every single member here keep doing what they are doing,I believe we are moving in the right direction. We can't stop bad things from happening in the industry,but we sure as he'll can warn and prepare others.
 

BRICKBURN

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.............
It's not the trophy hunter types jabbering about centimeters and fractions of inches that rubs me wrong, (it does get boring though), more accurately it is their over-doing the chest beating thing in my face when they luck-up and shoot something unusual, that I get tired of.

Worse yet is the type that pouts for the rest of the trip if they did not get the biggest or the most or whatever.
..................

I take zero offence at your position or what you have written.

Chest beating is no fun to watch for sure. Certainly if it is being presented in earnest. There is a huge element of luck and some hunter wants to ascribe that luck to his incredible prowess as a hunter, perhaps they need to adjust the hallucinogenics in their diet. :)


My buddies and I tease each other and make small inconsequential bets about who will get the biggest. I have acquired a few nice bottles of rum this way. Funny enough, your buddies always seem to be sharing the rum that they turned over on the bet.
I think my Grandfather started it all with "first, biggest and most" on an opening day of Geese some time back in history. I believe the bet is $0.25 on each of the three bets.

Apologies for running sideways momentarily on this one.
The most current bet of $5.00 is on this one.
A friend shared some trail cam pictures. It is spring bear season. He wants a Monster.

I got this picture and he said it was too small. My immediate reply is that I would be more than happy with that bear and I think he is huge and would make an incredible trophy.

#1
IMG_3437.jpg



Then I get this picture to try and convince me it's a smaller bear. (Not convinced it is the same bear.)
Still willing to part with my $5 though.

#2
IMG_3438.jpg



I see this picture and I tell him I will be more than happy to take his leavings. I will pay him the five bucks gladly if it does not make B&C. Absolutely gorgeous animal.

#3
IMG_3439.jpg



In all this, it is just good natured banter. I hope he gets the bear of his dreams and if it beats mine, good on him. Since mine is still walking around in this trail cam picture he will not be too hard to beat. :)
 

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Hi again Brickburn,

Thanks and likewise no offense taken from my point of view either (you are always polite and professional, even toward smartass characters like me).

I know I am not "normal" in some circles but, oye vey.

Guys like you and I will never change each other's point of view on this one topic and so, it is good that we can get along anyway, and I like that.

Possibly, if I had been raised in a good humored hunting family like yours, I might have grown to see all this in a whole different light.

But I wasn't.

My childhood was more like how Jack Nicholson's character described his childhood in the movie, "As Good as it Gets", (only I didn't even learn how to play the piano from it all - LOL).

Anyway, my life's experiences have brought me down the biltong hunter and shade tree adventurer's path.

I hunt and fish because I am driven to it by some ancient cave-man DNA thing evidently, and I would be exactly like this (tape measure free zone) if I was living in some dreadful inner city or out in the bush, 40 miles from the nearest grass hut village.

At least we agree that the pencil neck geek who shot so poorly on the sable in this incident, plus threatened to withhold payment from his PH is lower than a garden slug and, gives all hunters a bad name.

My best regards,
Velo Dog.
 
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BRICKBURN

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................
At least we agree that the pencil neck geek who shot so poorly on the sable in this incident, plus threatened to withhold payment from his PH is lower than a garden slug and, gives all hunters a bad name.
..................

(y)
 

Velo Dog

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I take zero offence at your position or what you have written.

Chest beating is no fun to watch for sure. Certainly if it is being presented in earnest. There is a huge element of luck and some hunter wants to ascribe that luck to his incredible prowess as a hunter, perhaps they need to adjust the hallucinogenics in their diet. :)


My buddies and I tease each other and make small inconsequential bets about who will get the biggest. I have acquired a few nice bottles of rum this way. Funny enough, your buddies always seem to be sharing the rum that they turned over on the bet.
I think my Grandfather started it all with "first, biggest and most" on an opening day of Geese some time back in history. I believe the bet is $0.25 on each of the three bets.

Apologies for running sideways momentarily on this one.
The most current bet of $5.00 is on this one.
A friend shared some trail cam pictures. It is spring bear season. He wants a Monster.

I got this picture and he said it was too small. My immediate reply is that I would be more than happy with that bear and I think he is huge and would make an incredible trophy.

#1
View attachment 40747


Then I get this picture to try and convince me it's a smaller bear. (Not convinced it is the same bear.)
Still willing to part with my $5 though.

#2
View attachment 40745


I see this picture and I tell him I will be more than happy to take his leavings. I will pay him the five bucks gladly if it does not make B&C. Absolutely gorgeous animal.

#3
View attachment 40746


In all this, it is just good natured banter. I hope he gets the bear of his dreams and if it beats mine, good on him. Since mine is still walking around in this trail cam picture he will not be too hard to beat. :)

I'm with you on this bear being a "shooter".
In the photos he looks like a big fat one to me and if left up to myself, he'd go straight into my freezer, with no further questions asked.
(Incidentally, I'm thinking there is but one in the same bear, there in all three photos).
Black bear is one of my favorite game meats.
And, I am blessed to regularly receive it each spring from a friend, who takes one every year with a wooden bow and home made arrow.
Usually he hunts over bait but this year he has invited me to back him with a rifle, on a spot & stalk bow hunt to Prince William Sound over a 4 day hunt, base camp will be on board another mutual friend's boat.
I am very excited to go but cannot decide which rifle to bring - LOL.
Also, some of the local yocals here like to use 375 degrees (Fnht), black bear fat to make "fry bread" or "scones" with, which is a doughnut kind of thing, in other words a deep fried pastry - and what's not to like about that?
 

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What a load of bollocks and as a PH you have every right to put down a suffering animal and this is dictated in our Code Of Conduct and if this affects your safari then so be it. If a client turned around and told me he was not paying for an animal then fine with me and I will pay for it. Thats the P in PH.
 

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