COVID vaccination required by Safari Company or not, your suggestion

[firehuntfish]

I can provide only one data point in favor of wearing masks. My son is a paramedic who has hauled many COVID patients since the beginning of the pandemic. Most trips resulted with him in the back of an ambulance with the patient for approximately three hours (the time required to travel to University of Kentucky Hospital). I find it amazing that he never contracted COVID during this time frame. Approximately two weeks ago his girlfriend went to lunch with a coworker who was exhibiting no symptoms but tested positive for COVID the following day. Two days later my son’s girlfriend tests positive and then, one day later, my son tests positive.
I realize this is only one case but, to me, a very compelling one.

I am currently a firefighter/paramedic for 22 years working in the second largest county in Florida (the current epicenter of Covid if you believe the numbers). I have absolutely no agenda, and I would never impose my political opinions on anyone. All I can tell you are my personal experiences and observations from having run on hundreds of Covid patients over the last 18+ months.

Throughout my career we have been issued N95 masks for close contact use with potentially contagious patients. N95's are the only paper mask designed to block viruses which the manufacturer claims is 95% effective provided they are fitted and worn properly. Interestingly, most are not aware that N95's are designed to be fitted and there is a vapor taste test that we undergo annually to ensure the mask is being worn properly. Even with trained personnel using the N95, the mask test failure rate is 50%... N95's are are also designed to be one-time use and disposable after each patient contact. In the first few months of the pandemic back in March-April of 2020, we exhausted our supply of N95's and began using various sterilization techniques to re-use the masks until we were able to get self-contained full-face respirators which are supposed to be 99% effective (if fitted properly). We are also supposed to be gloved, gowned, and wearing the full-face respirators for any potential patient contact. This PPE protocol is standard operating procedure for most EMS systems and Fire Departments in the State of Florida. These Covid SOP's were established from a board of medical directors comprised of several local ER doctors who specialize in oversight of the various EMS systems around the State. They do not take direction from the CDC.

Our medical directors advised us from Day-1 that cloth and paper masks were basically useless, and the use of N95's at best, offered minimal to moderate protection depending on multiple factors including proper fit, length of exposure, and the correct use of the full ensemble of PPE precautions and equipment. Full face respirators were recommended to replace the N95's and are now in use for the departments than can afford them. We also established the in-house SOP of limiting patient contact to those personnel who previously contracted and recovered from Covid. Since I had it relatively early on, I took on the lion's share of patient contacts..

We have a combat staff of 165 firefighters and another 50+ administrative personnel in our Department. For the first 4 months of the pandemic using the N95's, we had approximately 25% of our personnel test positive for Covid. Since going to full face respirators up to the present, we have now had 80% of our personnel test positive. EMS personnel were among the first to receive vaccines back in January/February of 2020, and approximately 50% of our department has been vaccinated. Of those vaccinated, approximately 40% have since contracted Covid.

Since the emergence of the Delta variant, I would estimate that 50% of the Covid positive patients we are recently seeing have been vaccinated. The only patients we are not encountering are those who had previously contracted and recovered from Covid with natural immunity. Ironically, I contracted Covid from my wife back in July of 2020. Since then, we have both been in close contact with numerous Covid positive individuals. I encourage each of you to take these observations at face value and come to your own conclusions..

Like I said, I have no agenda. I believe each individual should be free to choose to be vaccinated or not, wear a mask, or practice whatever precautions that they feel is best for them. My only conclusion is that despite the vaccines and our very best PPE efforts, this virus finds it way to spread. Unless you are prepared to mask (with a real mask) and self-isolate indefinitely, I honestly believe that there is no way to avoid exposure. The recognition of the realities and the application of common sense will go a long way to mitigate the hysteria..

 

[CBH Australia]

@Tokoloshe Safaris
I think we might be required to have shots to travel. This may be imposed or regulated by some government s .

I hate needles, I don't like the No jab No job idea either

Until recently I had not been to affected being in a regional area but we are now in lockdown.


You have asked a valid question and you may have the right to refuse service, it will be a little easier to check a few clients in your business than hundreds through retail or hospitality.

I have had one jab and soon to have another mainly because my kids live interstate so I just want to see the country open up.

I didn't read 17 pages but let's hope we win this battle and make Covid history.

I never wanted to visit China anyway and Im glad I went to Africa before this took hold.

 

[Randy Bo]

I am currently a firefighter/paramedic for 22 years working in the second largest county in Florida (the current epicenter of Covid if you believe the numbers). I have absolutely no agenda, and I would never impose my political opinions on anyone. All I can tell you are my personal experiences and observations from having run on hundreds of Covid patients over the last 18+ months.

Throughout my career we have been issued N95 masks for close contact use with potentially contagious patients. N95's are the only paper mask designed to block viruses which the manufacturer claims is 95% effective provided they are fitted and worn properly. Interestingly, most are not aware that N95's are designed to be fitted and there is a vapor taste test that we undergo annually to ensure the mask is being worn properly. Even with trained personnel using the N95, the mask test failure rate is 50%... N95's are are also designed to be one-time use and disposable after each patient contact. In the first few months of the pandemic back in March-April of 2020, we exhausted our supply of N95's and began using various sterilization techniques to re-use the masks until we were able to get self-contained full-face respirators which are supposed to be 99% effective (if fitted properly). We are also supposed to be gloved, gowned, and wearing the full-face respirators for any potential patient contact. This PPE protocol is standard operating procedure for most EMS systems and Fire Departments in the State of Florida. These Covid SOP's were established from a board of medical directors comprised of several local ER doctors who specialize in oversight of the various EMS systems around the State. They do not take direction from the CDC.

Our medical directors advised us from Day-1 that cloth and paper masks were basically useless, and the use of N95's at best, offered minimal to moderate protection depending on multiple factors including proper fit, length of exposure, and the correct use of the full ensemble of PPE precautions and equipment. Full face respirators were recommended to replace the N95's and are now in use for the departments than can afford them. We also established the in-house SOP of limiting patient contact to those personnel who previously contracted and recovered from Covid. Since I had it relatively early on, I took on the lion's share of patient contacts..

We have a combat staff of 165 firefighters and another 50+ administrative personnel in our Department. For the first 4 months of the pandemic using the N95's, we had approximately 25% of our personnel test positive for Covid. Since going to full face respirators up to the present, we have now had 80% of our personnel test positive. EMS personnel were among the first to receive vaccines back in January/February of 2020, and approximately 50% of our department has been vaccinated. Of those vaccinated, approximately 40% have since contracted Covid.

Since the emergence of the Delta variant, I would estimate that 50% of the Covid positive patients we are recently seeing have been vaccinated. The only patients we are not encountering are those who had previously contracted and recovered from Covid with natural immunity. Ironically, I contracted Covid from my wife back in July of 2020. Since then, we have both been in close contact with numerous Covid positive individuals. I encourage each of you to take these observations at face value and come to your own conclusions..

Like I said, I have no agenda. I believe each individual should be free to choose to be vaccinated or not, wear a mask, or practice whatever precautions that they feel is best for them. My only conclusion is that despite the vaccines and our very best PPE efforts, this virus finds it way to spread. Unless you are prepared to mask (with a real mask) and self-isolate indefinitely, I honestly believe that there is no way to avoid exposure. The recognition of the realities and the application of common sense will go a long way to mitigate the hysteria..

Thank You, for taking the time to share this.
I find it equally remarkable that you, like my son, both contacted Covid at home vs at work.

 

[firehuntfish]

Thank You, for taking the time to share this.
I find it equally remarkable that you, like my son, both contacted Covid at home vs at work.

I can only assume I got it from my wife, as I developed symptoms about 3 days after she became symptomatic. With this virus, it's very difficult to tell where the actual exposure occurs because so many individuals are asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic. In the first few months of the pandemic, if you became symptomatic or had a known unprotected exposure to a Covid positive individual, we were sent home for 14 days to self-quarantine and allowed to return after 2 consecutive negative Covid tests. We were sent to a State-run testing facility and it took 7-10 days to get results. Some of our personnel were out for over a month because of the delay in getting results and they kept testing positive even though they were no longer symptomatic. Also, entire crews were sent home and tested if they worked with that crew member in the last 72 hours. As you can imagine, that was a fiasco from a logistical standpoint. At one point early this year, we had almost 50 combat firefighters out at the same time. Last year, we were seeing multiple members testing positive with no symptoms only to become symptomatic later on and test positive again. Seeing this made me very skeptical in the accuracy of the testing procedure. I can't say what testing process was used early on, but, in my estimation it was very unreliable.

At least now, we have results returned within 24 hours and members can return to work without a follow-up test provided that they are asymptomatic after 10 days. We are also seeing less false positives. Overall, our department's experiences have been nearly the same for all of our surrounding departments. My next-door neighbor works for another similar sized department in the northern part of the county with similar demographics to our department. His experience has been nearly identical in terms of numbers.

 

[Randy Bo]

I can only assume I got it from my wife, as I developed symptoms about 3 days after she became symptomatic. With this virus, it's very difficult to tell where the actual exposure occurs because so many individuals are asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic. In the first few months of the pandemic, if you became symptomatic or had a known unprotected exposure to a Covid positive individual, we were sent home for 14 days to self-quarantine and allowed to return after 2 consecutive negative Covid tests. We were sent to a State-run testing facility and it took 7-10 days to get results. Some of our personnel were out for over a month because of the delay in getting results and they kept testing positive even though they were no longer symptomatic. Also, entire crews were sent home and tested if they worked with that crew member in the last 72 hours. As you can imagine, that was a fiasco from a logistical standpoint. At one point early this year, we had almost 50 combat firefighters out at the same time. Last year, we were seeing multiple members testing positive with no symptoms only to become symptomatic later on and test positive again. Seeing this made me very skeptical in the accuracy of the testing procedure. I can't say what testing process was used early on, but, in my estimation it was very unreliable.

At least now, we have results returned within 24 hours and members can return to work without a follow-up test provided that they are asymptomatic after 10 days. We are also seeing less false positives. Overall, our department's experiences have been nearly the same for all of our surrounding departments. My next-door neighbor works for another similar sized department in the northern part of the county with similar demographics to our department. His experience has been nearly identical in terms of numbers.

I agree but, in my son’s case it seems obvious that he contracted Covid from his girlfriend. Due to being short-staffed he was working 72 hours on/24 hours off. He was coming straight home and sleeping for the majority of his 24 hours off.

 

[BSO Dave]

Much of the country is already starting to move on.

I would argue to replace "much" with "some", but it's not nearly enough.. The compliance/noncompliance of these mandates are very regional. It really depends where you reside in this country and what party runs the government in your particular region.

The more folks try to get on with their lives, the more we see additional bold, ridiculous, and unconstitutional mandates being issued from this Administration and the rest of the dems at state and local levels. I have said all along that this only ends when the compliance ends. As you correctly mentioned, the displays of defiance at many of the football games recently had Biden and his idiot minions seething. What was his answer? Selective, nation-wide vaccine mandates based on no verified scientific data whatsoever... This tyrant (or his handlers) have proven time and again that they will meet any act of noncompliance with a greater loss of freedoms, as tyrants will do..

I hope you are right about the mid-terms. In the meantime, this Idiot-in Chief continues to leave a swath of irreparable destruction in his oblivious wake.

It seems that Sleepy Joe has adopted one of my favorite lines as his new motto: "The beatings will continue until morale improves".

Just because we're ready for the pandemic to be over, doesn't make it so. I plan to wear a N95 in high density indoor settings and keep my antibody levels high with vaccination until the uncontrolled spread of the virus becomes just another disease in the background. Even a 'mild' case of COVID is something I'd rather do without, and I'm willing to make small adjustments to my life for the present moment to that end.

That would sound reasonable if indeed the actual science behind these unconstitutional mandates was actually being followed from the beginning, but it has not.. The vast majority of Americans who have been labeled by the left as selfish "anti-vaxxers", "conspiracy theorists", etc.., would have no problem TEMPORARILY sacrificing some of their civil liberties for the greater good if in fact the data supported it. But, following the actual unbiased science and facts was never this Administration's plan. Given that we have been lied to on just about every aspect of this virus, I really don't think it's a surprise to see the credibility of this Administration and their so-called "experts" has been destroyed. Sadly, what lives they could have actually saved has been eclipsed by a political agenda.

Remember "two weeks to flatten the curve? How about "vaccines will never be mandated by the federal government"? I could quote a few dozen more lies, but I think you get the idea... I actually gotta hand it to these guys. They have masterminded a propaganda campaign that would make Stalin and Mao envious!

I have no problem with you or anyone else using whatever precautions you feel are necessary for your own health and safety right up until you demand that I comply to mandates that could jeopardize my own health and safety. No person and certainly no government should have that power.

For anyone truly serious about protecting your own health, I would be less concerned about the guy in the grocery store not wearing his mask, and much more concerned with the countless human flood of unvaccinated, 20+% Covid-positive, illegal immigrants being let into this country from every conceivable angle by the federal government since January 20th..

 

[CoElkHunter]

I spoke with my brother a couple of days ago. He told me that although he and his wife have been vaccinated for many months, they both contracted the Delta variant about one month ago. Minor symptoms, but she has asthma so she received some type of transfusion? I just learned today that the neighbors, husband and wife, both contracted the Delta variant last week. They both had been vaccinated many months prior. Minor symptoms. But, their three children tested negative? Really a strange and unpredictable virus.

 

[marksman]

Would you hunt with a Safari Company that required Covid vaccination for all hunters and staff?

After my wife and I having a bad case of Covid we had our entire staff to have Covid Vaccinations. Here is my question, should Safari Companies require all visiting hunters to have had full vaccination for Covid? Believe me I believe in personal rights as much as anyone, but I am asking for everyones opinion.

G'day

l would be inclined not to do business with someone who was not tolerant of other peoples choices
l have not read all through this thread but imagine there are all different views on this, the worst thing l have found about covid is the division it has caused, vaxxed and unvaxxed, the fear generated in the public that has caused such a separation and hypocrisy
considering there are many peer reviewed treatments that work l dont see the need for the experimental vaccines that are available, they really are not a true vaccine although the CDC has recently changed the definition of what a vaccine is to suit the new narrative, in truth a vaccine is something taken orally or injected that sterilizes the virus disease ect.. and gives you immunity from catching that virus/disease, check it out in a dictionary, google has cancel cultured the real definition LOL
l hope everyone understands that the so called vaccines are only available because of the EUA (emergency use authority) and that when the EUA is lifted these vaccines will not be allowed to be used until they have been properly tested
to show you guys that there are treatments l will post links that you are welcome to look at and investigate if you choose too but its ok if you dont want to, you will see what you want to really

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Ivermectin Protocol for Covid-19 by Professor Dr. Thomas Borody (download PDF)

The original documents containing the Triple Therapy Borody Protocol published by his clinic Centre for Digestive Diseases for doctors and patients, can be downloaded using the link at the bottom of this page. Supported by American Doctors Note: The info-graphic above uses a similar, but slightl...

rentry.co

Ivermectin for COVID-19: real-time analysis of all 245 studies

Ivermectin for COVID-19: real-time analysis of all 245 studies

c19ivermectin.com

and this one concerns Africa https://postimg.cc/qg1LYdQW
there is also this that you will not find on the MSM

India Could Sentence WHO Chief Scientist to Death for Misleading Over Ivermectin and Killing Indians | NextBigFuture.com

The Indian Bar Association (IBA) sued WHO Chief Scientist Dr. Soumya Swaminathan on May 25, accusing her in a 71-point brief of causing the deaths of Indian

www.nextbigfuture.com

of course there are other treatments but we do not have the time to put everything up
anyway that is how l feel about it and am happy if you feel differently

regards Mark

 

[curtism1234]

 

[Rimshot]

I spoke with my brother a couple of days ago. He told me that although he and his wife have been vaccinated for many months, they both contracted the Delta variant about one month ago. Minor symptoms, but she has asthma so she received some type of transfusion? I just learned today that the neighbors, husband and wife, both contracted the Delta variant last week. They both had been vaccinated many months prior. Minor symptoms. But, their three children tested negative? Really a strange and unpredictable virus.

This isn't terribly surprising. The Delta variant multiplies so rapidly that only high antibody levels can totally prevent infection. Antibody levels seem to fall off from about 5 months post vaccination with Pfizer. The B and T cells (longer term vaccine immunity) take several days to ramp up a response and by then the virus has a sizeable 'beachhead', but severe disease is prevented.

Testing of a 3rd mRNA shot has been shown to boost antibody levels higher than even a few weeks after the 2nd shot, which will again provide sterilizing immunity (virus can't take hold at all) for a time. A tailored "Delta variant" mRNA vaccine didn't produce significantly more neutralizing antibodies than the original vaccine formula, so that means the original vaccine is very good against Delta and simplifies the manufacturing process (if you're interested in the data, I can post a link).

Childrens' immune systems differ in some critical ways. My dumb non-doctor layman understanding is that it's more of a malleable "blank slate", and that is what helps children to be less affected by Covid. It is also why the vaccine testing/approval has to be separate for children; they aren't just physically little adults.

 

[marksman]

This isn't terribly surprising. The Delta variant multiplies so rapidly that only high antibody levels can totally prevent infection. Antibody levels seem to fall off from about 5 months post vaccination with Pfizer. The B and T cells (longer term vaccine immunity) take several days to ramp up a response and by then the virus has a sizeable 'beachhead', but severe disease is prevented.

Testing of a 3rd mRNA shot has been shown to boost antibody levels higher than even a few weeks after the 2nd shot, which will again provide sterilizing immunity (virus can't take hold at all) for a time. A tailored "Delta variant" mRNA vaccine didn't produce significantly more neutralizing antibodies than the original vaccine formula, so that means the original vaccine is very good against Delta and simplifies the manufacturing process (if you're interested in the data, I can post a link).

Childrens' immune systems differ in some critical ways. My dumb non-doctor layman understanding is that it's more of a malleable "blank slate", and that is what helps children to be less affected by Covid. It is also why the vaccine testing/approval has to be separate for children; they aren't just physically little adults.

l would definitely be interested in you putting up the link to show that data Rimshot as what l have seen shows the available vaccines are not compatible with Delta because they were designed for the Wuhan original and Delta is a mutation so is more transmissible but as viruses mutate they become less dangerous and we all know viruses are parasites that do not want to kill the host
would you know what tests are being used in your area for distinguishing between the variants?
here in Australia the PCR test is used but it does not distinguish between Wuhan original or Delta apparently
anyway l'm all for being informed so l would appreciate a link to the data
regards Mark

 

[Rimshot]

l would definitely be interested in you putting up the link to show that data Rimshot as what l have seen shows the available vaccines are not compatible with Delta because they were designed for the Wuhan original and Delta is a mutation so is more transmissible but as viruses mutate they become less dangerous and we all know viruses are parasites that do not want to kill the host
would you know what tests are being used in your area for distinguishing between the variants?
here in Australia the PCR test is used but it does not distinguish between Wuhan original or Delta apparently
anyway l'm all for being informed so l would appreciate a link to the data
regards Mark

First off, a virus mutates at random. It doesn't "want" anything as it's arguably not even alive. No thoughts or even metabolism is happening at all, it is just a protein surrounding some genetic code. It is no more alive than the mis-folded protein (prion) that causes mad cow disease or chronic wasting disease.

The mutations that become common will be the result of natural selection. Since it takes over a month on average to kill the host, there will be no selective pressure to make it less lethal, because it can already spread very efficiently and rapidly during the pre-symptomatic phase. A person in isolation dying in the hospital is effectively done spreading the virus. The Delta variant is in fact more deadly in part because of the increased viral load.

The most pertinent/recent:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41...45_deeplink_PID100085446&utm_content=deeplink

For the layman:
https://time.com/6098479/moderna-covid-19-booster-shot/

Some other interesting reading:
https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-r...ntech-announce-submission-initial-data-us-fda

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2114255?query=featured_home

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2113468

https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.abj4176

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.11.21261876v1

 

[LivingTheDream]

View attachment 424750

This is an accurate statistic but lacks context. COVID was still the 3rd leading cause of death behind Cancer and Heart Disease. 1 in 500 is .2% of the population and that is over an 18 month period. Annually, we lose 2.8 million or about .8% of the population. I think it would be interesting to understand how many died from COVID or with COVID. But we will never be able to have reliable data.

Granted COVID is a serious disease but feel this is a bit needless of a scare tactic.

 

[Red Leg]

G'day

l would be inclined not to do business with someone who was not tolerant of other peoples choices
l have not read all through this thread but imagine there are all different views on this, the worst thing l have found about covid is the division it has caused, vaxxed and unvaxxed, the fear generated in the public that has caused such a separation and hypocrisy
considering there are many peer reviewed treatments that work l dont see the need for the experimental vaccines that are available, they really are not a true vaccine although the CDC has recently changed the definition of what a vaccine is to suit the new narrative, in truth a vaccine is something taken orally or injected that sterilizes the virus disease ect.. and gives you immunity from catching that virus/disease, check it out in a dictionary, google has cancel cultured the real definition LOL
l hope everyone understands that the so called vaccines are only available because of the EUA (emergency use authority) and that when the EUA is lifted these vaccines will not be allowed to be used until they have been properly tested
to show you guys that there are treatments l will post links that you are welcome to look at and investigate if you choose too but its ok if you dont want to, you will see what you want to really

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Ivermectin Protocol for Covid-19 by Professor Dr. Thomas Borody (download PDF)

The original documents containing the Triple Therapy Borody Protocol published by his clinic Centre for Digestive Diseases for doctors and patients, can be downloaded using the link at the bottom of this page. Supported by American Doctors Note: The info-graphic above uses a similar, but slightl...

rentry.co

Ivermectin for COVID-19: real-time analysis of all 245 studies

Ivermectin for COVID-19: real-time analysis of all 245 studies

c19ivermectin.com

and this one concerns Africa https://postimg.cc/qg1LYdQW
there is also this that you will not find on the MSM

India Could Sentence WHO Chief Scientist to Death for Misleading Over Ivermectin and Killing Indians | NextBigFuture.com

The Indian Bar Association (IBA) sued WHO Chief Scientist Dr. Soumya Swaminathan on May 25, accusing her in a 71-point brief of causing the deaths of Indian

www.nextbigfuture.com

of course there are other treatments but we do not have the time to put everything up
anyway that is how l feel about it and am happy if you feel differently

regards Mark

FDA Approves First COVID-19 Vaccine

FDA approved the first COVID-19 vaccine, now marketed as Comirnaty, for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older.

www.fda.gov

Pfizer was approved by the FDA almost a month ago.

 

[Red Leg]

This is an accurate statistic but lacks context. COVID was still the 3rd leading cause of death behind Cancer and Heart Disease. 1 in 500 is .2% of the population and that is over an 18 month period. Annually, we lose 2.8 million or about .8% of the population. I think it would be interesting to understand how many died from COVID or with COVID. But we will never be able to have reliable data.

Granted COVID is a serious disease but feel this is a bit needless of a scare tactic.

We will never get past the political spin associated with this disease until it ceases to have perceived political value. In the US, that will not be until at least next November. One of our parties clearly believes it is successfully riding the wave of the scare.

 

[LivingTheDream]

We will never get past the political spin associated with this disease until it ceases to have perceived political value. In the US, that will not be until at least next November. One of our parties clearly believes it is successfully riding the wave of the scare.

I am wondering now if it is being used as more of a distraction from other world events.

 

[Rimshot]

This is an accurate statistic but lacks context. COVID was still the 3rd leading cause of death behind Cancer and Heart Disease. 1 in 500 is .2% of the population and that is over an 18 month period. Annually, we lose 2.8 million or about .8% of the population. I think it would be interesting to understand how many died from COVID or with COVID. But we will never be able to have reliable data.

Granted COVID is a serious disease but feel this is a bit needless of a scare tactic.

I agree that memes like this have no way to convey context and can be misleading.
To say 'but we will never have reliable data' is a statement I disagree with though. It should not be complicated (relatively) to tease apart excess deaths from total deaths, including other known causes of excess deaths that might be tangentially related to the pandemic that were not caused directly by the disease, and compile an accurate picture of the actual number of COVID-19 deaths.

Even the often trotted out "died with COVID vs died of COVID" isn't as big of a problem or mystery as some would claim. Now, I agree that we shouldn't count a car accident victim with COVID or a late stage rapid death cancer victim necessarly as COVID deaths, but these numbers are tiny in relative terms and easy to account for. When someone has severe COVID and then dies of pneumonia, we can definitively say that COVID caused the death, even if recorded as a "died of pneumonia with COVID", because they wouldn't have otherwise died. COVID has shown to cause multiple organ infection and failure as well, so any number of ailments could be the "cause" but those ailments were ultimately caused by complications of the SARS-COV2 virus. This is similar in a way that someone with AIDS dies of any number of infections. It may be that they died of who knows what disease/infection, but the AIDS killed them because they would otherwise be alive had they not contracted the virus.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I agree that memes like this have no way to convey context and can be misleading.
To say 'but we will never have reliable data' is a statement I disagree with though. It should not be complicated (relatively) to tease apart excess deaths from total deaths, including other known causes of excess deaths that might be tangentially related to the pandemic that were not caused directly by the disease, and compile an accurate picture of the actual number of COVID-19 deaths.

Even the often trotted out "died with COVID vs died of COVID" isn't as big of a problem or mystery as some would claim. Now, I agree that we shouldn't count a car accident victim with COVID or a late stage rapid death cancer victim necessarly as COVID deaths, but these numbers are tiny in relative terms and easy to account for. When someone has severe COVID and then dies of pneumonia, we can definitively say that COVID caused the death, even if recorded as a "died of pneumonia with COVID", because they wouldn't have otherwise died. COVID has shown to cause multiple organ infection and failure as well, so any number of ailments could be the "cause" but those ailments were ultimately caused by complications of the SARS-COV2 virus. This is similar in a way that someone with AIDS dies of any number of infections. It may be that they died of who knows what disease/infection, but the AIDS killed them because they would otherwise be alive had they not contracted the virus.

Ultimately the data that is presented will be accepted as valid if the audience trusts those presenting it. Those presenting the data are mostly politicians who just can't help themselves and politicize the issue. This clouds the waters and leaves one wondering just what the truth is.

Some will choose to believe their side is right and the other is wrong simply because of politics and nothing else. The rest continue to try and separate the fly shit from the pepper and get to the truth.

Either way, our politicians have to bear responsibility for what they say and how that affects the public. Thus far, Biden has been a disaster seemingly only capable of communicating what flavor of ice cream he wants and that's if someone doesn't cut off his microphone. And Fauci has been caught contradicting himself. The old adage of FUBAR comes to mind.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I agree that memes like this have no way to convey context and can be misleading.
To say 'but we will never have reliable data' is a statement I disagree with though. It should not be complicated (relatively) to tease apart excess deaths from total deaths, including other known causes of excess deaths that might be tangentially related to the pandemic that were not caused directly by the disease, and compile an accurate picture of the actual number of COVID-19 deaths.

Even the often trotted out "died with COVID vs died of COVID" isn't as big of a problem or mystery as some would claim. Now, I agree that we shouldn't count a car accident victim with COVID or a late stage rapid death cancer victim necessarly as COVID deaths, but these numbers are tiny in relative terms and easy to account for. When someone has severe COVID and then dies of pneumonia, we can definitively say that COVID caused the death, even if recorded as a "died of pneumonia with COVID", because they wouldn't have otherwise died. COVID has shown to cause multiple organ infection and failure as well, so any number of ailments could be the "cause" but those ailments were ultimately caused by complications of the SARS-COV2 virus. This is similar in a way that someone with AIDS dies of any number of infections. It may be that they died of who knows what disease/infection, but the AIDS killed them because they would otherwise be alive had they not contracted the virus.

Thats fair enough, I was thinking more like people like my great aunt, she was in her 90s was on hospice care and caught it. So she was dying but did she die of COVID or with COVID...I guess in the end it doesn't matter but how many instances are like this, 10%, 20%, I don't know and again not sure it matters.

 

[curtism1234]

This is an accurate statistic but lacks context. COVID was still the 3rd leading cause of death behind Cancer and Heart Disease. 1 in 500 is .2% of the population and that is over an 18 month period. Annually, we lose 2.8 million or about .8% of the population. I think it would be interesting to understand how many died from COVID or with COVID. But we will never be able to have reliable data.

Granted COVID is a serious disease but feel this is a bit needless of a scare tactic.

I think the data is as reliable as deaths associated with heart disease, cancer, flu etc. Someone with heart disease can die of a quick terminal cancer, someone with cancer can die of the flu, etc. There will be some discrepancy with any form of death.

My hope is the public health measures of covid will help facilitate public health measures regarding heart disease. Michelle Obama attempted this years ago and it disappeared like a cake in a room full of fat kids. Afterall, this is 'mericia and our kids will eat a chocolate bar and coke for a school snack if they want...anyone trying to get them to eat an apple is a communist. Heart disease is the elephant in the room no one is talking about or cares to talk about.