Buff are tough

[towserthemouser]

CMS has a video that I remember seeing, where someone shot a cow elephant with a big double. I think it was a 470NE but not 100% sure about that part. The part I do remember quite clearly is that when they hit that cow on the shoulder, you could see it literally knock her off her feet. The impression I had watching the video was that she took a punch from a giant invisible fist and just got knocked over. I've heard about Knock-out Values all my life, but seeing that video I finally got it.

I agree with all who have pointed out the importance of bullet placement. But I do not think a 375 would have knocked that cow ass over teakettle like the big double did.

That's a point for the big bores, IF you can place the bullet properly.

 

[Rare Breed]

Kevin you are wise my friend. Shoot the heaviest caliber you know you can place that first shot in the kill zone period

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Kevin.
Thanks for this interesting report.
I'm especially glad to hear that the Hornady products performed quite well.
They do get a lot of flak here on the forum.
Were those the bonded bullets or the older ones?
Best regards
Foxi

Hi Foxi, these are all the bonded ones. There is a photo in our group of a retrieved one, I will try to get it, it shows perfect petal axpansion. I have nothing but goid things to say about Hornady.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

All of this information is interesting. @Kevin Peacocke, I heard the story of the last buff via Glen and @Lancaster ....very exciting and I'm so pleased everyone got out of the situation uninjured.
I note that a lot of the shots were taken with the DGX bullets which have a bit of a chequered history if I recall correctly. Do you recall if these bullets penetrated deep and tracked straight or could poor bullet performance have played a part? I can only add two buffalo cows to the collective knowledge base and both are interesting for different reasons. The first was in 2022 with a .375 H&H, 300 g TSX and a frontal chest shot - the cows legs gave way instantly and she hit the deck exactly where she stood. A follow up insurance shot with a .458 Win Mag was administered to be prudent. The second buffalo cow was last year with a .458 Lott and 420 grain CEB Raptors. The buff was quartering on and the bullet hit the left shoulder joint, fractured the humerus and made a very narrow wound through the upper part of the lungs. We caught up with her very much alive about 20-30 minutes later and the terrier kept the cow at bay whilst numerous shots were fired with the 458 lott. I noted at the time that the 450 grain CEB safari solids appeared to hit her much harder than the 420 grain Raptors and the autopsy showed the petals had not reached the vitals. As a result of this experience I will be setting off to the Caprivi before long with "old school" 450 grain TSX and 500 grain TBBC, together with 450 grain CEB solids. They all shoot to the same point of impact so will take my PHs advice.
For the record I dont think the CEB Raptors are bad bullets, but I would be very careful which shot I took with them and definitely would not take a frontal or quartering on shot through the shoulder bones with them again. I am sure with broadside chest shots they would probably be excellent

@SRvet I don't have any penertation facts unfortunately.
Yes, it was exciting, but could have ended very badly. I am perhaps guilty of over reaction in having gone to the extreme with the 500 Jeffrey, but I am just not prepared to take any more chances than necessary. This is hunting, and those who do it know the risks, but the new entrants like my kids don't have to experience the learning curve from the bottom. The only thing I would change if opportunity had allowed would have been to get a 470 or a 500 double for the very fast second shot, but the Blaser was immediately available and we will practice and practice the pull reload with lesser loads on the range.

 

[Sideshow]

Hi Foxi, these are all the bonded ones. There is a photo in our group of a retrieved one, I will try to get it, it shows perfect petal axpansion. I have nothing but goid things to say about Hornady.

I for one would like to see that.
Do you have much choice on the ammo front @Kevin Peacocke I’d be guessing no with arms embargo’s for Zim. How is the SA selection? I heard good things about Rhino bullets. I’m sure if they make 500 or what their supply line is like. But nothing wrong with trying something new in something new!

 

[mark-hunter]

I am always reluctant "to try something new" on high value, high stake hunt.

 

[Sideshow]

Here’s some more info on Rhino bullets

Rhino Bullets: As African as their Name

It’s not too often you get a bullet manufacturing enterprise start off in the manufacturer’s spare bedroom, yet that is what I learnt on a visit to East London, in South Africa’s Eastern Cape province. Owners Kobus and Shirley van der Westhuizen began their Rhino bullet production in a spare...

www.kevindthomas.com

And load data pages of the stuff looks like plenty of testing done.

https://www.xxlreloading.com/bullet-manufacturer/rhino-bullets-load-data

 

[Sideshow]

I am always reluctant "to try something new" on high value, high stake hunt.

Well I do agree but just to clarify I’m not saying take a brand new rifle straight out of the box and new bullets and go for it plus I very much doubt Kevin is that type of man.
Not as if these guys are new either.
From the above link.

“Rhino Bullets are premium hunting projectiles developed and tested in Africa under some of the harshest hunting conditions in the world. Designed by Kobus van der Westhuizen, a veteran hunter with over 40 years of experience, Rhino Bullets emerged from a need for reliable, high-performance bullets capable of taking on Africa’s most resilient game animals. After years of dealing with inconsistent results from available bullet brands, van der Westhuizen set out to create a solution tailored to the unique demands of African hunting environments.

Over an extensive 18-year development period, Rhino Bullets were rigorously tested on a wide range of species—from small Gray Duiker to the formidable Cape Buffalo. Feedback from professional hunters, sport shooters, and dedicated reloaders played a crucial role in refining the bullet design. The result is a rugged, accurate, and dependable product line that combines terminal performance, penetration, and shooting precision.

Launched internationally in 1999, Rhino Bullets were engineered "by hunters, for hunters"—with Africa’s toughest game in mind. These bullets are equally effective on the shooting range and in the field, offering benchrest-level accuracy while maintaining the strength needed for big game hunting. From Blue Duiker to Cape Buffalo, Rhino Bullets deliver consistent results shot after shot.”

As a side note it’s not as if Kevin who lives in Zim can just duck down to Bass Bro and grab what he wants off the shelf…even if there was such a store in Harare they probably don’t even have shelf’s let alone stock

 

[mark-hunter]

Specifically speaking of Rhino bullets, I researched a bit, before my DG hunts.
The research and feedback was positive.

Then, in the overall lack of DG ammo available locally at my place, I purchased Rhino bullets for reloading.
On the end, I still keep them in my locker, never used them.

But if it comes to real need, I would use them.
I consider them tried and tested.

 

[DWB]

As far as we know and understand Rhino Bullets are no longer in production as of recent.

 

[grand veneur]

Underlying this topic is a rifle caliber 500 Jeffery. Unfortunately, the selection of bullets caliber .510 is somewhat more limited than that available for smaller cartridges. In this discussion, we should perhaps limit ourselves to what would be the best option in this caliber class for shooting buffalo.

 

[DWB]

Luckily here in South Africa, where Kevin visits frequently, we have loads of excellent options!

 

[Pondoro]

I can vouch for Rhino solids (flat tipped brass bullets) in .375H&H, shot 2 elephant with them in handloads, they penetrate like crazy..

Never used their expanding bullets but I have heared lots of praise for them..

 

[WAB]

Hi Foxi, these are all the bonded ones. There is a photo in our group of a retrieved one, I will try to get it, it shows perfect petal axpansion. I have nothing but goid things to say about Hornady.

I’m glad that it appears that Hornady got their problems resolved with these bullets!

 

[mark-hunter]

If we speak of factory ammunition, with lack of swift bullets on the market, Norma ammo factory, switched to Woodleigh bullets in Norma African PH line.
What do you guys say?

Good, or not?

 

[Beck]

As per my other post about the new 500 Jeffrey acquisition a few of you asked, why the step up? It surprised me a little too, having always been a proponent of the 'enough gun, but not too much' tenet, but after our last hunt I just couldn't ignore the facts any longer.
I am only referring to our close group with buffalo results that I have personal experience upon, and here are the statistics:
1. Bull. 375 H&H. Soft. Gut shot possibly clipping a lung. 24 hr successful followup.
2. Bull. 375 H&H. Hornady DGX. Side two lung shot and plumbing. Dropped immediately and expired.
3. Cow. 375 H&H. Side chest, heart and lungs. Ran 10m, dropped and expired.
4. Cow. 375 H&H. Swift A frame. Frontal, possibly one lung? Set up ambush but bayed by dogs. 3 hrs.
5. Bull. 375 H&H. Hornady DGX. Centre chest frontal. Ran 10m, dropped and expired.
6. Cow. 375 H&H. DGX. Side heart and lungs. Ran 20m. Collapsed and expired.
7. Cow. 375 H&H. Swift A frame. Frontal. Ran, not recovered after 1 day.
8. Bull. 450/400. DGX. Side heart and lungs. Turned and staggered 10m. Dropped to second side shot to heart and lungs.
9. Bull. 375H&H. DGX. Side heart and lungs. Dropped, but got up again. Second shot heart and lungs. 375 H&H. DGS. Dropped again, but got up. Third shot. 450/400. DGX. Chest. Dropped, tried to get up. 5th shot 450/400. DGS. Chest. Tried to get up. Sixth shot. 450/400. DGS. Frontal brain shot, finally finished it.
10. Cow. 375 H&H. DGX. Frontal, possibly a bit high. Took off and ran, but rested at least four times in dense bush, no second shot possible. Copious blood, including a little pink blood initially so possibly a nicked a lung. Followed up the next day. Another three resting places observed with blood. Then blood dried up. Not recovered despite thorough search. No vultures.
11. Bull. 375 H&H. DGX. Frontal. Ran, no blood for 200 metres or so. Then minor spots of non-lung blood. Too dark to follow. Followup the following day. Blood dried up, but dragging the right hind leg. Set up ambush and charged from 12 metres. Initial heart lung side shot as it got up from a 500 Jeffrey solid. Then a 375 H&H DGX to the neck. Then another 500 Jeffrey solid quartering as it came around. Then a 450/400 DGX frontal. Then it dropped at 4 metres. Then a 500 Jeffrey and a 450/400 into the neck from above at 4m ended it.
The initial 375 H&H damaged the front leg and broke the back one, maybe ran down the side?

So in summary;
Three of the 375 side chest shots were one shot quick kills.
The 450/400 side chest shot was a 'one shot' quick kill.
One of the 375 frontal shots was a one shot kill.
Four of the 375 frontal shots were not killed outright, two were recovered on followup, two lost.
One of the 375 gut shots resulted in a 24 hr followup
One 375 side chest shot dropped, but took a lot of finishing off.

Conclusion:
375 H&H worked well for pefrect side chest heart and lung shots, but not well on frontal shots.
450/400 worked well on perfect side chest shot.

The sample is small I know, but for me it is enough. Not all shots will be perfect side heart lung and the problem stems as much from a poor first shot as from ineffective bullet performance. My kids will be hunting buff more and more with my equipment so I am opting for something to absolutely monimise risk. To me that is a lot of gun topped with a good DG scope and equipment wise that is as much as I can do. The rest is down to training and practice.

Perhaps consider a .450 rigby or a .458 lott. I killed my second buffalo at 110 yards with a frontal shot from a .450 rigby. I also use TSX bullets

 

[Beck]

As per my other post about the new 500 Jeffrey acquisition a few of you asked, why the step up? It surprised me a little too, having always been a proponent of the 'enough gun, but not too much' tenet, but after our last hunt I just couldn't ignore the facts any longer.
I am only referring to our close group with buffalo results that I have personal experience upon, and here are the statistics:
1. Bull. 375 H&H. Soft. Gut shot possibly clipping a lung. 24 hr successful followup.
2. Bull. 375 H&H. Hornady DGX. Side two lung shot and plumbing. Dropped immediately and expired.
3. Cow. 375 H&H. Side chest, heart and lungs. Ran 10m, dropped and expired.
4. Cow. 375 H&H. Swift A frame. Frontal, possibly one lung? Set up ambush but bayed by dogs. 3 hrs.
5. Bull. 375 H&H. Hornady DGX. Centre chest frontal. Ran 10m, dropped and expired.
6. Cow. 375 H&H. DGX. Side heart and lungs. Ran 20m. Collapsed and expired.
7. Cow. 375 H&H. Swift A frame. Frontal. Ran, not recovered after 1 day.
8. Bull. 450/400. DGX. Side heart and lungs. Turned and staggered 10m. Dropped to second side shot to heart and lungs.
9. Bull. 375H&H. DGX. Side heart and lungs. Dropped, but got up again. Second shot heart and lungs. 375 H&H. DGS. Dropped again, but got up. Third shot. 450/400. DGX. Chest. Dropped, tried to get up. 5th shot 450/400. DGS. Chest. Tried to get up. Sixth shot. 450/400. DGS. Frontal brain shot, finally finished it.
10. Cow. 375 H&H. DGX. Frontal, possibly a bit high. Took off and ran, but rested at least four times in dense bush, no second shot possible. Copious blood, including a little pink blood initially so possibly a nicked a lung. Followed up the next day. Another three resting places observed with blood. Then blood dried up. Not recovered despite thorough search. No vultures.
11. Bull. 375 H&H. DGX. Frontal. Ran, no blood for 200 metres or so. Then minor spots of non-lung blood. Too dark to follow. Followup the following day. Blood dried up, but dragging the right hind leg. Set up ambush and charged from 12 metres. Initial heart lung side shot as it got up from a 500 Jeffrey solid. Then a 375 H&H DGX to the neck. Then another 500 Jeffrey solid quartering as it came around. Then a 450/400 DGX frontal. Then it dropped at 4 metres. Then a 500 Jeffrey and a 450/400 into the neck from above at 4m ended it.
The initial 375 H&H damaged the front leg and broke the back one, maybe ran down the side?

So in summary;
Three of the 375 side chest shots were one shot quick kills.
The 450/400 side chest shot was a 'one shot' quick kill.
One of the 375 frontal shots was a one shot kill.
Four of the 375 frontal shots were not killed outright, two were recovered on followup, two lost.
One of the 375 gut shots resulted in a 24 hr followup
One 375 side chest shot dropped, but took a lot of finishing off.

Conclusion:
375 H&H worked well for pefrect side chest heart and lung shots, but not well on frontal shots.
450/400 worked well on perfect side chest shot.

The sample is small I know, but for me it is enough. Not all shots will be perfect side heart lung and the problem stems as much from a poor first shot as from ineffective bullet performance. My kids will be hunting buff more and more with my equipment so I am opting for something to absolutely monimise risk. To me that is a lot of gun topped with a good DG scope and equipment wise that is as much as I can do. The rest is down to training and practice.

This is good data. Anyone who kills 11 buffalo in one trip has quite a bit of Buff experience.

 

[Pondoro]

If we speak of factory ammunition, with lack of swift bullets on the market, Norma ammo factory, switched to Woodleigh bullets in Norma African PH line.
What do you guys say?

Good, or not?

View attachment 766392

Very good ammunition this, but frightfully expensive.. One-1 .470NE cartridge is US$38 in Norway

That is highway robbery..

BTW, Norma PH line always used Woodleigh soft and solid bullets.

 

[375Fox]

If we speak of factory ammunition, with lack of swift bullets on the market, Norma ammo factory, switched to Woodleigh bullets in Norma African PH line.
What do you guys say?

Good, or not?

View attachment 766392

Google cut outs of woodleigh, swift a frame, Hornady DGX, and others. Woodleigh softs might be good in big slow calibers but it’s a pretty weak design for 375.

 

[Beck]

I have to disagree. I have shot multiple buffalo with the .375 H&H and .458 Lott. I have also been present on a one shot kill with a 9.3x62. All will do the job, but the Lott hits dramatically harder.

You're clearly an experienced Buff hunter, thanks for the info.

I have killed five buffalo myself, and watched my father kill another three. Results and conclusion below:

1. .416 Ruger - 400 grain TSX - Frontal shot from 20 yards, dead after 15 yards - destroyed the heart and lungs - couldn't really see the impact as we were in heavy brush.

2. .450 Rigby - 500 grain TSX - Frontal shot from 110 yards, walked 10 yards then collapsed. The buffalo did have an immediate reaction to the impact of the bullet.

3. .470 NE - Hornady DGX and DGS - I fucked the first shot from 20 yards and hit only one lung. I don't know how many times I shot that bull, but it was a lot. Not a fan of those bullets.

4. .404 Jeffery - 400 grain TSX - My father also fucked the first shot and ended up shooting this bull 7-8 times. I didn't see the reaction of the bull on the first shot.

5. .416 Rigby - 400 Grain TSX - 35 Yard broadside shot. The Bull took one step forward then stumbled backward and died immediately. I will say he didn't seem to react much to the initial impact but was dead within 30 seconds.

6. .450 Rigby - 500 Grain TSX - 65 Yards quartering shot. Broke the front shoulder with the first shot, and second shot in the ass literally took him off of his feet. I've never seen a buffalo react quite like this one, you could tell he was hurt immediately.

7. .416 Rigby - 400 Grain TSX - 80 yards broadside, heart lung shot. Bull ran 50 yards then collapsed dead. Again, no immediate reaction to the first shot, other than he ran off.

Conclusions:
1. Of course, shot placement is king, but you already know that.

2. Hard to argue against those TSX bullets. Every single TSX I have recovered has retained 98-99% of initial bullet weight and opened up like a perfect pedal. I guess some people are concerned about pass throughs. All I can say is these bullets just work.

3. I load that .450 Rigby with 500 grain bullets at 2350 FPS, and it just seems to hit them differently. You can tell they are hurt right off of the bat.