.470 NE Reloads and Fillers?

swoobie said:

Resurrecting an old thread... I don't have a chronographer, but have some 470 ammo loaded by Ken Owens - 75 grains of 3031 on a standard 500 grain bullet. Does anyone know velocity of that round? Is the velocity adequate for Elephant up close? Gun is a 1920's WR...

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That should deliver 2030fps to 2080fps depending on the length of your barrels. This is exactly the original velocity of the 470NE, the claim of 2150fps was always a fiction.

As to whether its enough, a century of success suggests that it was.

My chrono will be delivered next week - I’ll share results when I’m able to get out with it.

Big thanks for the replies - great community we have

I purchased my Gibbs 450 in the mid 90's and it came with a 3031 load using poly filler it regulated well but passed over the Chrony at 1900fps. After purchasing Wright's book I moved on to RL 15 with a filler, H4831 and finally settled on H4350

rookhawk said:

That should deliver 2030fps to 2080fps depending on the length of your barrels. This is exactly the original velocity of the 470NE, the claim of 2150fps was always a fiction.

As to whether its enough, a century of success suggests that it was.

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Ahh, didn't know, never knew that 2150 fps was a myth, as that is what I was aiming for in my load development. What perplexes me is that my K gun has been regulated with Norma PH with Woodleigh Softs, and it chronos right around the 2120 - 2150 range. Now what?

SStomcat said:

Ahh, didn't know, never knew that 2150 fps was a myth, as that is what I was aiming for in my load development. What perplexes me is that my K gun has been regulated with Norma PH with Woodleigh Softs, and it chronos right around the 2120 - 2150 range. Now what?

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Gather round for a tale of how we ended up in this mess.

In 1921 and 1926, ICI/Kynoch published their load data for factory ammo. It all used the now extinct stranded cordite as propellant and it used a 28" test barrel. They also lied by about 30fps-50fps regarding the observed velocities at that time. So the 2150fps was really 2100fps out of a 28" gun, approximately. And of course you lose about 30fps per inch of barrel shortening, so a 25" gun was really around 2030fps, give or take.

Then the modern factory ballisticians enter the room and they believe they are god's gift to reloading. They "know" that loads are most accurate when the powder fills the case, so they chose terrible powders like IMR4831. They also overlooked the fact the original data was from 28" barrels, not 25-26" test barrels. They also overlooked the fact that the pressure curves of the powders they are using are vastly different than stranded cordite, therefore introducing dangerous stresses at different locations of the barrel than the original vintage guns were built to endure.

The factory loads of today are just plain dangerous in vintage double rifles and they do not regulate whatsoever.

As to the question of why a particular MODERN gun shoots well with a load it was regulated for, that is why. They regulated for that load. Naturally, that load has stout recoil and will make it difficult to get a correct traditional handload to work well because they set the regulating wedge to handle unnaturally high velocity and an odd pressure curve which effects time in barrel.

What to do? Have a custom load for every individual double rifle you own.

How to avoid this problem? Buy second hand double rifles that have the load recipes that prove their accuracy with a known traditional load. (e.g. IMR3031 or RL15, standard soft and solid, etc.)

swoobie said:

Resurrecting an old thread... I don't have a chronographer, but have some 470 ammo loaded by Ken Owens - 75 grains of 3031 on a standard 500 grain bullet. Does anyone know velocity of that round? Is the velocity adequate for Elephant up close? Gun is a 1920's WR...

Click to expand...

My Owen regulation load is…..

78.0gr 3031, foam wad, win mag primer & 500gr bullet.

Chronograph at 2,050fps from 24”barrels

FYI it regulates beautifully with this load as well as Hornady factory ammo which the load is meant to duplicate but with much less recoil.

deewayne2003 said:

My Owen regulation load is…..

78.0gr 3031, foam wad, win mag primer & 500gr bullet.

Chronograph at 2,050fps from 24”barrels

FYI it regulates beautifully with this load as well as Hornady factory ammo which the load is meant to duplicate but with much less recoil.

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That tracks similar to my experiences with a modern Heym .470. I think I’ve probably posted this pic before but it illustrates your point well and suggests that type of filler has some impact on ballistics/regulation .

So I've been using Kynoch wads and only recently found out as I was getting low on them that they're not being made anymore. For those of you using backer rod, what length do you cut it to? The backer rod seems a little more firm than the Kynoch wads, and I'm thinking should be a little less in length than the Kynochs.

PHOENIX PHIL said:

So I've been using Kynoch wads and only recently found out as I was getting low on them that they're not being made anymore. For those of you using backer rod, what length do you cut it to? The backer rod seems a little more firm than the Kynoch wads, and I'm thinking should be a little less in length than the Kynochs.

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@PHOENIX PHIL my Heyms regulated at 77gr and 77.5gr respectively with 1.5gr of dacron. If you opt to use dacron instead of wads, it increases pressure and you must reduce powder weight. Not hugely, but a little bit.

The best advice I got from Ken Owen was that you should use a CCI primer to start. When you get great L/R regulation, but they are 3" apart, STOP. Just change to a Federal primer and the hotter ignition will bring the group together.

Bottom line, don't add more powder, deal with the wad and primer at reasonable pressure out of an abundance of safety.

I chronographed the loads from Ken at an average of 2047FPS with none lower than 2031FPS. Is that adequate velocity with a standard 500 grain solid for elephant?

swoobie said:

I chronographed the loads from Ken at an average of 2047FPS with none lower than 2031FPS. Is that adequate velocity with a standard 500 grain solid for elephant?

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That is correct velocity. 2150fps is a false, dangerous myth.

swoobie said:

I chronographed the loads from Ken at an average of 2047FPS with none lower than 2031FPS. Is that adequate velocity with a standard 500 grain solid for elephant?

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Yes sir, it works just fine!