Where do you draw that magical line between Hunter and PH cartridges?

[Northern Shooter]

Continuing my series of questions surrounding what cartridges everyone should consider, where do you draw the magical line between what's reasonable for "Hunter cartridges" and "PH Cartridges"?

I've seen many here that seem to agree that the .458's are the upper limits of what a hunter should use, while others MIGHT consider that line to be drawn at the 475's, 500s or even the .416/404.

 

[HookMeUpII]

I believe you should use the biggest cartridge that is still in the realm of practical, as far as I'm concerned. For example, I think shooting something like an impala with a 416 is probably overkill. Guys shoot them with 375HH in the interest of bringing one gun, I'm fine with that. But either way, it's a dead animal. I shot all my PG with a 300WM which so many people said was "too much gun" (no one on here, though) before we went. I have 0 regrets. Good shots with good ammo with a good caliber and the longest track was maybe 100 yds.

In terms of DG, I'd prefer if the PH didn't have to shoot the animal. I am there for that reason. Not to half finish a job and have the PH behind me finish it to save our hides. Things happen, of course, and I 100% want the PH to be carrying something to put the period at the end of the sentence.

In the end, both the hunter and the PH want the animal dead. The hunter wants it dead for the trophy. If the PH wants it dead, chances are its to save both your lives.

Long story short: In my humble opinion, there is no line. They are all hunting cartridges at the end of the day. Bring enough gun with ammo you can find to get the job done and don't worry about what people say.

 

[WAB]

I don’t think there is a line. I shoot the same caliber my PH carries, .458 Lott.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Hell, my dream calibers are .600 Nitro Express and .505 Gibbs. Even though most of my white hunters aren't armed with anything heavier than a .500 Nitro Express.

 

[Inline6]

The line is easy IMHO, what can the client shoot proficiently for some that is a 375h&h for others that put the work in that is a 700NE. The key is, the client must be able to put the bullet where it is supposed to go, no amount of big gun is going to make up for bad shot placement.

 

[Bonk]

It's been shown many times you don't need a howitzer to humanely kill big animals. The old adage is 'bring enough gun' and most people take that to mean bring the biggest gun you're proficient with. I have a slightly different take. I plan on bringing the biggest gun I shoot well because IMO there's a difference between shooting proficiently and shooting well. I'm proficient with 458Win but I'm a noticeably better marksman with 375H&H.

There are hunters that are excellent marksman with big bore calibers. I'm not one of them and I'm much better with a medium bore or a light .40 caliber. If the only legit DG caliber I owned was 458Win I'd be okay hunting with it because I'm reasonably proficient with that caliber. However, given the choice of a smaller caliber I would use it because shot placement is everything and I don't think too many people would disagree that an excellent shot at DG with 375H&H is better than an adequate shot with 458Win.

As Harry Callahan so eloquently said: "A man's got to know his limitations." In my case 458Win is the absolute upper limit and it's not ideal. That's why I'm putting a lot of effort into learning to shoot my 404J well. So far so good and I'm confident I'll get to the point where I shoot it well enough to meet my own self imposed standard. Among other criteria I insist on being able to consistently hit an 8" target offhand at 100 yards. I can't do that with 458Win even with a scope. I can at 50 yards but not at 100. Adequate, but not good enough if I have other appropriate caliber choices I shoot better. YMMV

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

The line is easy IMHO, what can the client shoot proficiently for some that is a 375h&h for others that put the work in that is a 700NE. The key is, the client must be able to put the bullet where it is supposed to go, no amount of big gun is going to make up for bad shot placement

It's been shown many times you don't need a howitzer to humanely kill big animals. The old adage is 'bring enough gun' and most people take that to mean bring the biggest gun you're proficient with. I have a slightly different take. I plan on bringing the biggest gun I shoot well because IMO there's a difference between shooting proficiently and shooting well. I'm proficient with 458Win but I'm a noticeably better marksman with 375H&H.

There are hunters that are excellent marksman with big bore calibers. I'm not one of them and I'm much better with a medium bore or a light .40 caliber. If the only legit DG caliber I owned was 458Win I'd be okay hunting with it because I'm reasonably proficient with that caliber. However, given the choice of a smaller caliber I would use it because shot placement is everything and I don't think too many people would disagree that an excellent shot at DG with 375H&H is better than an adequate shot with 458Win.

As Harry Callahan so eloquently said: "A man's got to know his limitations." In my case 458Win is the absolute upper limit and it's not ideal. That's why I'm putting a lot of effort into learning to shoot my 404J well. So far so good and I'm confident I'll get to the point where I shoot it well enough to meet my own self imposed standard. Among other criteria I insist on being able to consistently hit an 8" target offhand at 100 yards. I can't do that with 458Win even with a scope. I can at 50 yards but not at 100. Adequate, but not good enough if I have other appropriate caliber choices I shoot better. YMMV

These replies IMO say it all @Northern Shooter.

 

[IvW]

It all depends what you can competently handle. Second it depends what and where you will be hunting....pointless taking a 458 Lott on a night critter or pg kalahari hunt....just as pointless taking a 22 Hornet or 300WM on a DG hunt....
There is no line between....

 

[steve white]

While there may be no actual line between the two, the PH line definitely begins with stopper rounds.

 

[Art Lambart II]

Speaking for myself the largest caliber I would hunt DG with is a 470NE but I would prefer to use a 416 or a 404. We all know that firearms don’t recoil in the field only on the range, but it’s on the range where you gain confidence and proficiency with your firearm. I can shoot 20 rounds of a 416 or 404 during a range session, I can only manage half that with the 470NE. Hunters and PHs carry firearms for different reasons, the hunter’s job is to place his/her first shot into the chest of the animal destroying as many vital organs as possible. The PH carries a rifle to protect the client and the rest of the hunting party from charges. Is there a caliber line between hunter and PH? I’m not so sure, but there is a big difference in what they use those firearms for.

 

[xausa]

As far as personal experience is concerned, I used a wildcat .505 SRE and a .458 Winchester Magnum for my thick skinned dangerous game cartridges. My PH used a .470 Nitro Express DR, and I can truthfully say, I don't know effective his shots were. I knocked my first elephant down with my first shot, but it took a couple more shots from my .505 and a couple from his .470 to keep him down. When I complained about his shooting as unnecessary, he pointed out that we were only a couple of hundred yards from the boundary of a game refuge, and if the elephant had made it over the line, we might never recover it. I agreed that he had wisely contributed to the elephant's demise.

The other time involved a rhino charge. I was off to one side and the rhino was charging him. As he came abreast of me, I fired a shot which went into his neck, causing him to reverse course 180 degrees and head back the way he came. I put in three more shots, all in the shoulder area and my PH emptied his double rifle. A post mortem revealed that both of his shots had gone into the rhino's rear. One had keyholed and the other tumbled. Both bullets were recovered, having contributed nothing to the rhino's demise. The rhino made it about 150 yards before collapsing. He was already dead when we found him.

My first shot had been aimed in front of the shoulder as he rushed down hill, but acording to my PH, he must have seen me out of the corner of his eye, because he slammed on the brakes just as I shot. I was aiming at the point on his neck where the bullet struck, assuming that I needed to lead in order to hit the spot I intended to hit, the point of his shoulder. Two of my next three shots hit exactly on the tip of his shoulder and the third was a few inches farther to the rear.

My PH never fired another shot, either on that hunt or the next two I made with him. In fact, he was not even present when I shot my lion and leopard. I did have two gun bearers with me when I shot my leopard, both armed with double barreled shotguns loaded with buck shot, but they never fired them or had any reason to, thank goodness.

My PH passed on to his reward some years ago. De mortuis nil nisi bonum.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

375 for client and 458 for PH. Worked for me both times I hunted buffalo. PH never had his gun to shoulder. But of course the lodge had confidence in my ability to shoot.

For plains game I hunt with 30-06. A couple of times we were in buffalo country. PH carried his 375 then, as I recall.

 

[318AE]

I’m going to be in the minority here. I’ve been fortunate enough to hunt with some remarkably experienced PHs, such as Rolf Trappe and Ian Lennox. They used 375s, generally with solids. They felt confident they could make a brain shot, and with the right penetration, that was all that mattered. The big bores are fun; I enjoy them too. I don’t think they provide as much margin of error, in terms of shot placement, that many believe. So, yeah, I’ve often had a 416, 425 or 450/400 when the PH had a 375….

 

[Tanks]

There is no line, except maybe financially the clients being able to afford more expensive rifles most of the time.

 

[grand veneur]

Continuing my series of questions surrounding what cartridges everyone should consider, where do you draw the magical line between what's reasonable for "Hunter cartridges" and "PH Cartridges"?

I've seen many here that seem to agree that the .458's are the upper limits of what a hunter should use, while others MIGHT consider that line to be drawn at the 475's, 500s or even the .416/404.

For a PH there is more of a lower limit because one of his duties among other things is to ensure the safety of the actions.

As far as a client is concerned, I don't see an upper limit, depending on the game within a reasonable range in terms of calibers and cartridges, as long as one are able to control the weapon well and place the first shot in the right place.

 

[Scott CWO]

Most of the PHs I’ve hunted with carried a 458Lott. For PG, I’ve mostly carried a 338WM and a 375H&H. For buffalo and elephant, I use a 458Lott so not much difference so far. This year, I will bring my 375H&H and Lott while my PH packs a .577 double rifle. Personally, I’m not recoil sensitive but don’t see the advantage of getting a bigger caliber than my Lott as a client. My semi-custom CZ holds 5 cartridges down in the magazine, which I really like.

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

I've never understood the thinking of, your a client you only need a 375. If you can shoot bigger calibres well, you can afford the bigger calibres etc then why not use one, sure it's not 100% necessary but there is never anything wrong with a few extra HP if used correctly. And also who has made the rule that only the PH stops a charge, what happens on a hunt is never determined an decided in advance, one day you may find your PH already trampled and you being the one having to stop your PH being killed.

 

[AHughes]

I always thought it to be use the right tool for the right job .... No need to swing a sledgehammer at a finishing nail but when you need a sledgehammer you don't want to be stuck with a 1 ounce ballpeen

 

[Tanks]

I've never understood the thinking of, your a client you only need a 375. ...

That thought is advanced mostly by the fanbois of rat caliber rifles that can not envision anyone doing something else.

 

[uplander01]

As previously said, know your limitations and practice a lot. I shoot my 416 rigby (10.25 lbs) every bit as good as my 300wm (8.0 lbs). Weight of the heavier caliber rifles imo actually makes them easier to steady and shoot off sticks.