What is the typical method for hunting a captive bred lion?

[mark-hunter]

Speaking of repetitive shots with 7 mm, at lion: this reminds me of story of Ross rifle, 280 Ross, the lion, and mr Grey.

 

[Nhoro]

That's the story of my CBL hunt. I didn't feel there was anything "canned" about it. Yes, the bullets I was given were inadequate. Other than that, it was a great experience - and I got it done before the window for importing from South Africa slammed shut.

I feel like quite a few people have been judgemental and gone way off topic. Don't take it personally, people are passionate and that is good. I think as long as you know what you are paying for and you get it, then it is all good.

 

[JKO HUNTING SAFARIS]

I can't comment on the legal aspects of the caliber. (I trusted the outfitter and my PH to have that covered - my mistake) If I ever hunt a lion again, it won't be with anything less than a 375 (even if a smaller caliber was legal).

However, Don Heath, former PH and Game Warden in South Africa eventually became a bullet designer for Norma. About 3 - 4 years ago, Norma introduced a line of bullets for dangerous game. To promote the launch of this new line of bullets, they mailed info to all SCI members (at least in the US). It began with Dan Heath describing his personal experience with a lioness. (and I believe he was using 7mm) In any case he also shot the cat 7 times in the chest (sound familiar?). On later examination, after it had charged and broken three of his ribs before being killed, it was found that those frontal shot bullets had disintegrated when they hit the super tense muscles in the lion's chest. That is apparently what also happened in my case and in the case of Donna Boddington.

I have never seen any bullets break up on a lion as they are not really a tough animal like buffalo.... I have seen a lot of bullets that is too hard for a lion and just zip through them like a solid, this is not good as there is no static shock on the lion and they go very long ways if the shot did not hit the vitals properly.

The bullets they used must have been shot too fast and not of very good quality, I find it really hard to believe that a muscle will break a bullet up.... Also another thing I do not understand is how they could get 7 frontal shots on a lioness without her charging / running away. With my experience and what I do is to try and find another shot angle if I see that the cat is wounded or that the frontal shots are not working. That sir is just my point of view, I understand you are just relating to what you have read and heard.

All my best,

Jacques

 

[postoak]

I'd never read the story about Mr. Grey and the lion. Interesting story and information about the Ross rifle here:

https://www.magzter.com/article/Mens-Interest/Rifle/Ross-Rifles

 

[mark-hunter]

@postoak
This is the story repeated many times in last 100 years.

Grey was brother of then foreign Secretary of Britain.
Ross, rifle designer himself was well known among Victorian high society.
Ross rifles were winning long range matches at Wimbledon.

So, when mr Grey gets killed by wounded lion, with alleged failure of Ross rifle, media follows.
It was well covered by then news papers.

And then, modernday authors, look for records, this is what they find, and repeat again.
I have seen references to this story, by:
Chuck Hawks
Magazine African Hunting gazette
Terry Wieland
Craig Boddington
- your link as well, etc.

280 Ross was first serious caliber to reach 3000 fps, and story represents problems of high velocities and soft point bullets at close range at big game.
The issue of velocities vs soft points, solved, only later after ww2 with premium bullets invented.
Then modern authors repeat the story all over again, because it is history by now, and good illustration, to the high velocity problems. (repetitio est mater studiorum)

If mr Ross and mr Grey were unknown figures we would not be discussing it now.

 

[Charles de Ribeau]

I feel like quite a few people have been judgemental and gone way off topic. Don't take it personally, people are passionate and that is good. I think as long as you know what you are paying for and you get it, then it is all good.

No, I don't take it personally. I retrospect, I will say that I should have been more assertive and just deferred to the "professionals".

 

[Charles de Ribeau]

I have never seen any bullets break up on a lion as they are not really a tough animal like buffalo.... I have seen a lot of bullets that is too hard for a lion and just zip through them like a solid, this is not good as there is no static shock on the lion and they go very long ways if the shot did not hit the vitals properly.

The bullets they used must have been shot too fast and not of very good quality, I find it really hard to believe that a muscle will break a bullet up.... Also another thing I do not understand is how they could get 7 frontal shots on a lioness without her charging / running away. With my experience and what I do is to try and find another shot angle if I see that the cat is wounded or that the frontal shots are not working. That sir is just my point of view, I understand you are just relating to what you have read and heard.

All my best,

Jacques

I agree that there were probably issues with the bullets. When I got down to having just one or two bullets left, I was given another rifle. The safety on that gun didn't work. The bolt was the safety. Does that tell you something?

The cat had been fatally wounded (lungs). She finally did start a charge. That's when I placed the last ineffective shot in the chest.

Later, I went to the skinning shed to see the damage. The skinner pointed out that the cat had only been hit 3 times. (all on the side) I knew better. I just shrugged and walked away. When the hide arrived at the taxidermist, I inspected it carefully. The holes were there in the chest, just as I knew they would be.

Again, looking back on it, I trusted the PH and outfitter too much. They made some mistakes. A couple of them were big mistakes that could have ended very badly for one of us. Fortunately, that didn't happen.

 

[Aaron N]

@postoak
This is the story repeated many times in last 100 years.

Grey was brother of then foreign Secretary of Britain.
Ross, rifle designer himself was well known among Victorian high society.
Ross rifles were winning long range matches at Wimbledon.

So, when mr Grey gets killed by wounded lion, with alleged failure of Ross rifle, media follows.
It was well covered by then news papers.

And then, modernday authors, look for records, this is what they find, and repeat again.
I have seen references to this story, by:
Chuck Hawks
Magazine African Hunting gazette
Terry Wieland
Craig Boddington
- your link as well, etc.

280 Ross was first serious caliber to reach 3000 fps, and story represents problems of high velocities and soft point bullets at close range at big game.
The issue of velocities vs soft points, solved, only later after ww2 with premium bullets invented.
Then modern authors repeat the story all over again, because it is history by now, and good illustration, to the high velocity problems. (repetitio est mater studiorum)

If mr Ross and mr Grey were unknown figures we would not be discussing it now.

I think if Mr. Grey was an unknown figure, Mr Ross’ cartridge would still be relevant!

Now if I could only get my hands one one of those rifles.....

 

[mark-hunter]

Now if I could only get my hands one one of those rifles.....

Modern reincarnations are Blaser R8, Merkel Helix, Heym SR 30, Strasser RS14, Roesler Titan 16...

 

[Cam Moon]

Wow. I will say that while reading this I found myself a bit discouraged at times. Or perhaps disappointed. I try to be open minded and respectful of others and their choices, even if I don't always accomplish that. It frustrates me when I read posts on this site where we have members attacking or undermining other members. And this "holier than thou" attitude is sickening. Why can't we all stick together and have each other's backs?
I feel we should just accept that one hunting style doesn't fit all.... And I mean that about the individual hunter, our quarry, and even the terrain we hunt in. There is no 'one size fits all'. Don't fight each other over it, we have a hard enough time with the antis.
I felt the original post was a sincere attempt by @postoak at gathering some information, and I think I understand what his thoughts were.
If hunting a wild lion is an experience where a hunter has a group of paid help that gets, prepares, and sets out bait, makes blinds, scouts, checks baits, etc etc etc ..... and all the hunter does is sit in the blind and shoot the lion the PH tells him to shoot, that doesn't really seem like all that much work, or really all that exciting. Hell, JGRaider's 12 year old daughter could do that!! And if a CBL hunt meant tracking a lion in a large area that the lion calls home, where it lives, hunts, etc. Not hunting over bait or even out of a blind, and tracking for days..... Well now all of a sudden the CBL hunt seems (to me) more appealing then the previously mentioned "wild hunt".
I think that's maybe what postoak was trying to say. But he was looking for information to see what the hunts were really like. Not criticism for asking.
I also think that is what @Aaron Nietfeld was getting at when he asked "Would you rather walk and stalk a wild lion, or hunt one over bait from a blind" I presume he was trying to show that if both hunts were wild lion, that one hunt may appeal more to some (most?) than the other. More 'sporting' if you will.
I think that the hunt that @IvW described when he said
"Yes you are wrong on that. If you hunt lion with me anyway
You will be part of the entire experience"
sounds amazing and I'm thinking that most members (including postoak) would be interested in something like that. I know that I for one can't afford it, so if I ever do hunt lion it will more than likely have to be CBL.
Keep in mind this is not "canned hunting" (which isn't legal anyways). I do believe most all of us believe in fair chase, and don't just want to climb into an enclosure and shoot someone's pet.

 

[JKO HUNTING SAFARIS]

@postoak
This is the story repeated many times in last 100 years.

Grey was brother of then foreign Secretary of Britain.
Ross, rifle designer himself was well known among Victorian high society.
Ross rifles were winning long range matches at Wimbledon.

So, when mr Grey gets killed by wounded lion, with alleged failure of Ross rifle, media follows.
It was well covered by then news papers.

And then, modernday authors, look for records, this is what they find, and repeat again.
I have seen references to this story, by:
Chuck Hawks
Magazine African Hunting gazette
Terry Wieland
Craig Boddington
- your link as well, etc.

280 Ross was first serious caliber to reach 3000 fps, and story represents problems of high velocities and soft point bullets at close range at big game.
The issue of velocities vs soft points, solved, only later after ww2 with premium bullets invented.
Then modern authors repeat the story all over again, because it is history by now, and good illustration, to the high velocity problems. (repetitio est mater studiorum)

If mr Ross and mr Grey were unknown figures we would not be discussing it now.

Thank you for this information sir. I will definitely look it up as I find it really interesting!

 

[Aaron N]

Modern reincarnations are Blaser R8, Merkel Helix, Heym SR 30, Strasser RS14, Roesler Titan 16...

Those are all missing “Made in Canada” on the barrel

 

[mark-hunter]

Thank you for this information sir. I will definitely look it up as I find it really interesting!

You are welcome, sir!

You will see that this story of 280 Ross & Lion, has many similarities, to this one:
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/the-royal-bengal-tiger-which-got-a-shikaree-hanged.55249/

Or, to this one, from John Noslers autobiography "Going Ballistic", and how he went on to design Nosler partiton bullet.
(today considered as first premium bullet in history, although not invented before H-mantel by RWS):

 

[HWL]

Those are all missing “Made in Canada” on the barrel

Upon request, they make it with a "Beloved in Canada" on the barrel....

HWL

 

[Red Leg]

Wow. I will say that while reading this I found myself a bit discouraged at times. Or perhaps disappointed. I try to be open minded and respectful of others and their choices, even if I don't always accomplish that. It frustrates me when I read posts on this site where we have members attacking or undermining other members. And this "holier than thou" attitude is sickening. Why can't we all stick together and have each other's backs?
I feel we should just accept that one hunting style doesn't fit all.... And I mean that about the individual hunter, our quarry, and even the terrain we hunt in. There is no 'one size fits all'. Don't fight each other over it, we have a hard enough time with the antis.
I felt the original post was a sincere attempt by @postoak at gathering some information, and I think I understand what his thoughts were.
If hunting a wild lion is an experience where a hunter has a group of paid help that gets, prepares, and sets out bait, makes blinds, scouts, checks baits, etc etc etc ..... and all the hunter does is sit in the blind and shoot the lion the PH tells him to shoot, that doesn't really seem like all that much work, or really all that exciting. Hell, JGRaider's 12 year old daughter could do that!! And if a CBL hunt meant tracking a lion in a large area that the lion calls home, where it lives, hunts, etc. Not hunting over bait or even out of a blind, and tracking for days..... Well now all of a sudden the CBL hunt seems (to me) more appealing then the previously mentioned "wild hunt".
I think that's maybe what postoak was trying to say. But he was looking for information to see what the hunts were really like. Not criticism for asking.
I also think that is what @Aaron Nietfeld was getting at when he asked "Would you rather walk and stalk a wild lion, or hunt one over bait from a blind" I presume he was trying to show that if both hunts were wild lion, that one hunt may appeal more to some (most?) than the other. More 'sporting' if you will.
I think that the hunt that @IvW described when he said
"Yes you are wrong on that. If you hunt lion with me anyway
You will be part of the entire experience"
sounds amazing and I'm thinking that most members (including postoak) would be interested in something like that. I know that I for one can't afford it, so if I ever do hunt lion it will more than likely have to be CBL.
Keep in mind this is not "canned hunting" (which isn't legal anyways). I do believe most all of us believe in fair chase, and don't just want to climb into an enclosure and shoot someone's pet.

I wouldn't get too carried away with that area a lion "calls home" concept during a CBL hunt. I believe that SAPA rules require the animal to be released at least 7-days prior to the hunt (I stand by to be corrected). There are different provencial requirements, but a survey done in May 0f last year indicated the average time was three weeks. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0217409 I would not necessarily call that an animal habituated to his environment. Though the drugs should have worn off by then.

And yes, many ethical hunters do indeed consider a cbl hunt to in fact be a "canned" hunt regardless of its legality where it takes place.

DSC's Position - After a thorough analysis and deliberation, the Board of Dallas Safari Club has concluded that the practice of captive bred lion hunting is not a practice that is in keeping with its values of ethical and fair chase hunting.

SCI's Position - Considering that the practice of the captive breeding of lions for the purpose of hunting has doubtful value to the conservation of lions in the wild, and considering that such hunting is not consistent with SCI’s criteria for estate hunting, the SCI Board has adopted the following policy:

· SCI opposes the hunting of African lions bred in captivity.

· This policy takes effect on February 4, 2018 and applies to hunts taking place after adoption of this policy and to any Record Book entry related to such hunts.

· SCI will not accept advertising from any operator for any such hunts, nor will SCI allow operators to sell hunts for lions bred in captivity at the SCI Annual Hunters’ Convention.”

It is perfectly all right to disagree with both those positions. Here on the forum, we have, over time, tried to steer clear of being judgemental on the subject. Nevertheless, there have been a couple of strongly worded threads over the last few years. I have good friends who have hunted such lions and others who conduct such hunts and still others who are part of the PHASA (which has its own set of metrics) ranch approval process in South Africa. I'll simply leave it as an activity in which I personally have no interest in which to participate. But you should not be surprised that emotions get stirred whenever the subject is reintroduced.

 

[JGRaider]

There's a good reason these CBL hunts run 100% success. Think about it.

 

[Cam Moon]

@Red Leg & @JGRaider I really want to clarify that my knowledge about CBL hunts is extremely limited. I found myself somewhat personally opposed to it, so it's nothing I've looked into doing. That being said, I have read a little bit about it, just out of my general hunting interests. It seems to me that not all places do things the same. My example I gave where I wrote where "the lion calls home" was purely hypothetical, but do such places not exist?
I'd love to hear from some others who have the knowledge, or even first hand experience.
Are there places that offer CBL hunts where the lions are left to their own devices? Imagine a vast hunting area that has a perimeter high fence and within it are several CBL that have grouped themselves, hunt off the land, and live as wild animals aside from the exterior fence. To me, this would be fair chase and ethical. But it may be that such a place doesn't exist. Are ALL CBL hunts the type of hunt where there's a human-dependant lion that has been drugged and recently released into a hunting enclosure? If that's what a CBL hunt is, then I do understand how it would get some emotions going.
But are they ALL like that?
And is it true that there is ALWAYS a 100% success rate with CBL hunting?
I'm asking because I honestly don't know. I DO know that I don't like it when members pass judgement and attack each other on this site, and that's mostly due to my worry of the power that gives the antis. My feeling is that we will always stand strongest if we stand together. My personal hunting choices have changed over the years, as I used to hunt only for meat, and actually somewhat judged trophy hunters. Now that I have educated myself more on the topic I feel my judgements may not have always been justified. I can now truly see the value that trophy hunting (when done properly) has in certain situations. I have not yet hunted an animal over bait. That too may change one day. Maybe not.

 

[Nyati]

@Cam Moon , I know firsthand of two cases where the PH has been hurt by the lion while CBL hunting.

So, it´s not so easy !

 

[Red Leg]

@Cam Moon , I know firsthand of two cases where the PH has been hurt by the lion while CBL hunting.

So, it´s not so easy !

Of course it can be dangerous. So is jumping in an arena in Spain with a fighting bull. And I really don't mean to be snarky in that response. I just don't believe "danger" per se has anything to do with whether or not CBL is an ethical pursuit.

I simply tried to answer the question and in so doing point out that a large segment of the hunting community believes that this form of hunting is not fair chase - however it is done. And it is perfectly a allright to disagree with them.

@Red Leg & @JGRaider I really want to clarify that my knowledge about CBL hunts is extremely limited. I found myself somewhat personally opposed to it, so it's nothing I've looked into doing. That being said, I have read a little bit about it, just out of my general hunting interests. It seems to me that not all places do things the same. My example I gave where I wrote where "the lion calls home" was purely hypothetical, but do such places not exist?
I'd love to hear from some others who have the knowledge, or even first hand experience.
Are there places that offer CBL hunts where the lions are left to their own devices? Imagine a vast hunting area that has a perimeter high fence and within it are several CBL that have grouped themselves, hunt off the land, and live as wild animals aside from the exterior fence. To me, this would be fair chase and ethical. But it may be that such a place doesn't exist. Are ALL CBL hunts the type of hunt where there's a human-dependant lion that has been drugged and recently released into a hunting enclosure? If that's what a CBL hunt is, then I do understand how it would get some emotions going.
But are they ALL like that?
And is it true that there is ALWAYS a 100% success rate with CBL hunting?
I'm asking because I honestly don't know. I DO know that I don't like it when members pass judgement and attack each other on this site, and that's mostly due to my worry of the power that gives the antis. My feeling is that we will always stand strongest if we stand together. My personal hunting choices have changed over the years, as I used to hunt only for meat, and actually somewhat judged trophy hunters. Now that I have educated myself more on the topic I feel my judgements may not have always been justified. I can now truly see the value that trophy hunting (when done properly) has in certain situations. I have not yet hunted an animal over bait. That too may change one day. Maybe not.

That is an absolutely fair point. I believe if outfitters offered "estate" opportunities for lions where old members of self-sustaining, naturally breeding prides were the animals hunted - as is true on most quality game farms with respect to plains game (I, personally, also have no interest hunting game plains game animals simply released on a small game ranch for purpose of being shot) then the "captive bred" lion hunting debate would never have taken on the energy that it has. There are few fenced properties capable of such an offering. Such lions don't distinguish between zebra and 10K sable bull trophies. Unless the area is truly huge, maintaining self-sustaining populations of such an apex predator is economically impossible.

It is also a difficult issue to discuss rationally, because, fundamentally, it is indeed an ethical one; emotions become instantly involved. Were the practice illegal, no one would be participating. So when someone, or an organization like DSC, says the practice is not "fair chase" then is it not only CBL that is perceived to be unethical but so, by extension, the practitioners? That is a stretch for a lot of us.

Ethically, the issue is further clouded by the general acceptance of fenced "estate" hunting in Africa, New Zealand, and North America. I think, generally, most fellow hunters have less of or no issue with those hunts because the animals are ungulates rather than apex predators, and because the animals themselves are utilized as food. We have often discussed on this site the efficacy of various forms of estate hunting - from put and take, through animals released from breeding populations, through true self-sustaining populations. I'll offer an unsolicited opinion that should you eventually hunt South Africa, the later is the sort of ranch environment that you want to hunt.

The lions are indeed utilized. For instance, their bones are ground for the East Asian traditional medicine market. One can certainly argue selling this material on the open market reduces poaching pressure on wild populations. Though that has clearly not been true of rhino.

Anyway Cam, it is indeed a tough topic that does drive schisms that we do not need through our ranks. It is worth thinking through, and seeking lots of informed opinion.

 

[WAB]

Although I don’t have a desire to hunt a captive bred lion, I struggle to see how raising a lion to kill is any different than raising any other animal with the ultimate intent being to kill it. Perhaps being raised on a farm, I have a different POV than others.