Traditionally inaccurate cartridges

[CJW]

The 7.62x39 got its bad accuracy rap from the SKS, SKK, & AK Platforms

I wonder how many of those are actually good shooters if given a chance. My SKS will put cheap Wolf ammo into golf ball or smaller size groups with open sights at 50 yds. I'm a mediocre shot, but with a properly mounted scope and different trigger I bet the results would be much better.

 

[Flewis]

I wonder how many of those are actually good shooters if given a chance. My SKS will put cheap Wolf ammo into golf ball or smaller size groups with open sights at 50 yds. I'm a mediocre shot, but with a properly mounted scope and different trigger I bet the results would be much better.

Better than you think and much better the mini 30 ruger.

 

[Paul Homsy]

Many cartridges are not considered very accurate by many because of their history as traditional hunting cartridges. Such as 270, 30-06, 7x57, 257 Robb. And many dangerous game cartridges.
What guns do you all have that disprove these claims ,and show groups too if you can.

You mention two military cartridges the 30-06 and the 7x57 that are proven accurate, deadly and efficient cartridges. There are millions of dead targets to prove it. The 270 is a phenomenal cartridge and in the right hands, stress that so please pass the gun to someone else, thank you, is another phenomenal cartridge. The 257 roberts can drive tacks...in the right hands. I don't understand the premise of your post and don't care to know. I think you're either a juvenile trying to stir something or totally ignorant.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The only caliber that I had accuracy problems with was a .35 Whelen. That caliber and never bonded. Several rifles and many different grain bullets and ammo brands.

@Buffalo1
That is unusual. My 35 Whelen doesn't care what you throw down the barrel it is just stupid accurate.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I do have a question about one caliber 30-30 win. and I do not mean fired through a M-94 carbine? This is a question only.

@Tokoloshe Safaris
Lane Simpson once told a person he had a 30-30 that would shoot less than inch groups. The person didn't believe him. He proceeded to shoot half inch groups with his Remington 788 in 30-30. My mate Greg's marlin 336 will do inch groups on a good day in 30-30.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

All calibers can be accurate, rifles and people can sometimes not.

Big kicking magnums, well used .303 Enfields, etc.

@shark_za
Even well used 303 Enfields can be accurate. Depends on your definition of accurate.
A varmit shooter wants 0.5 moa or less.1
An old fella with worn 303 SMLE hunting bigger game would be happy with 3 to 4 moa at 100yds.
He would still be able to bring home the meat at 150 yards.
Accuracy is relative to needs.
A hunting rifle that will consistently group 1.5" all day every day for 3 shots can confidently hunt game out to any sensible range and still you should be happy.
We have come to expect more from today's guns that's all and if it's not achievable we say the product is rubbish.
Yes half moa guns Wether for big or small game is well and good.
There are a plethora of rifles and ammo that will do this BUT NOT TO MANY half moa hunters.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I read an article once that made claim that the .30-30 is a good cartridge.
.30-30 accuracy is hindered by the round projectiles used in tube magazines. The projectiles are not was aerodynamic as modern projectiles.
The claim was a
30-30 built on a bolt action using handloaded ammo with good projectiles can be an accurate combination. It's not the cartridge in this case but the rifles it's available in.

They also said something like the boys who wanted a .30-30 wanted a lever action and the boys who wanted a bolt action didn't want a .30-30.

I don't know of any .30-30 bolt actions but I'm sure it's been done somewhere.

@CBH Australia
Remington 788 came out in 30-30. Instead of shooting bulls eyes you could shoot the pins out that held the target up.
Bob

 

[BeeMaa]

Rifled slugs never seem to be very accurate

I used to think the same thing but I now believe it was the equipment traditionally used for slugs.

Typically it would be a smoothbore shotgun (take your pick of action) with rifled slugs that was pressed into service as a whitetail deer/black bear slug gun due to money being tight or regulations not allowing rifles. The exception was someone who had a spare rifled barrel for their shotgun, so it could be changed out for deer/bear season. This greatly improved accuracy of nearly any shotgun slug. These are my personal observations from the early 1970's to 2018-ish.

Then in 2019, Savage comes out with a bolt action shotgun with a rifled barrel and detachable box magazine. It's a rifle in every sense of the word with the exception of the ammo. My friend recently picked up a Savage 220 and mounted a Leupold 1.5-5 scope on it. At 100 yards with Federal Trophy Copper Sabot Slugs all three holes were touching, about an inch above center. He's estimating a range of 125 yards for ethical shots given the speed and energy of a 275 grain bullet.

The accuracy I expected from the older shotguns was about 3" groups at 100 yards, but with modern equipment and modern cartridges...that number has at least been cut in half. The game has changed. It's a matter of wanting to invest in a rig like this. I believe my friend was able to get the Savage, mounts and scope for less than $1500 and for the accuracy he's getting...that's quite a deal.

 

[Flewis]

I used to think the same thing but I now believe it was the equipment traditionally used for slugs.

Typically it would be a smoothbore shotgun (take your pick of action) with rifled slugs that was pressed into service as a whitetail deer/black bear slug gun due to money being tight or regulations not allowing rifles. The exception was someone who had a spare rifled barrel for their shotgun, so it could be changed out for deer/bear season. This greatly improved accuracy of nearly any shotgun slug. These are my personal observations from the early 1970's to 2018-ish.

Then in 2019, Savage comes out with a bolt action shotgun with a rifled barrel and detachable box magazine. It's a rifle in every sense of the word with the exception of the ammo. My friend recently picked up a Savage 220 and mounted a Leupold 1.5-5 scope on it. At 100 yards with Federal Trophy Copper Sabot Slugs all three holes were touching, about an inch above center. He's estimating a range of 125 yards for ethical shots given the speed and energy of a 275 grain bullet.

The accuracy I expected from the older shotguns was about 3" groups at 100 yards, but with modern equipment and modern cartridges...that number has at least been cut in half. The game has changed. It's a matter of wanting to invest in a rig like this. I believe my friend was able to get the Savage, mounts and scope for less than $1500 and for the accuracy he's getting...that's quite a deal.

The savage came out many years ago along with browning and a few others. Then there was of course the the tar hunter.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Used to own a .243Win. Bought it brand new. Heard that some of them can be difficult to get a decent load. Could not get mine to shoot well, although I gave it everything that it wanted. Topped with a Swarovski Z5 Scope, heavy barrel, bedded and suppressor. Grouped about a dinner plate at 100. Just could not get it to work. Someone got a bargain on the rifle and scope right about after missing the 5th Jackal.

 

[BeeMaa]

Used to own a .243Win. Bought it brand new. Heard that some of them can be difficult to get a decent load. Could not get mine to shoot well, although I gave it everything that it wanted. Topped with a Swarovski Z5 Scope, heavy barrel, bedded and suppressor. Grouped about a dinner plate at 100. Just could not get it to work. Someone got a bargain on the rifle and scope right about after missing the 5th Jackal.

In your opinion, did you get a lemon?

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

In your opinion, did you get a lemon?

Very difficult to say. Don't want to paint all 243's with the same brush. Have seen some of them perform unbelievably well. Even speaking to some of that crowd, they mentioned how much effort they had to go through in order to get acceptable performance. As I dived into possible solutions to my own situation, I started seeing more and more reports of others having issues with finding acceptable loads for their rifles in the same caliber.
Just thought that I would add to the thread on a caliber that I struggled with personally. Not saying its a bad caliber at all. Just had some difficulty with one.

 

[BourbonTrail]

In your opinion, did you get a lemon?

Bob would say that this proves the point that it’s a caliber best for tomato stakes.

 

[Hogpatrol]

IIRC, those .243s with a 1-10 twist rate were the ones with heavy bullet accuracy issues. Most building them now are using 1-8 or faster.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Gentlemen,

Nothing against any of you. We all have opinions about many things. Opinions are however, just that unless supported by facts. Concerning the accuracy of the .243 Winchester, here is one hard fact:

John Whidden took his wife's push feed M70 and rebarreled it to .243 Win. I know this because she told me! Anyway, what he did with that .243 is history, winning the NRA National Long Range Championship in 2017:

An NRA Shooting Sports Journal | Six Key Reasons Why John Whidden Uses .243 Win. for Long Range Shooting

The five-time NRA High Power Rifle Long Range Champion shares the advantages of using .243 Win. in competition

www.ssusa.org

From Accurate Shooter:
"John Whidden of Whidden Gunworks has won his fifth Long Range National Championship, his second title in a row (he also won the LR Title in 2016). This year, competing at Camp Atterbury in Indiana, Whidden pulled together a gritty, come-from-behind victory. John won the title by shooting a perfect 450-28X (not dropping a point) in the final Palma match on the last day of the Long Range Championship. While Whidden, who finished at 1246-91X, edged runner-up Phillip Crowe (1245-68X) by just one point, John enjoyed a huge X-Count margin. Finishing third was past High Power and Long Range National Champion Nancy Tompkins (1244-65X)."

If you do not know, NRA Long Range (and High Power) matches are shot with only a sling for support. No bipods or other "artificial support" allowed!

Whidden was not a tyro (rookie) to long range shooting, winning the same Long Range Championship in 2007, 2008, 2010, and 2016. For 2017 and he had to best the well funded Army and Marine teams, and civilians like David Tubb, Nancy Gallagher Tompkins, and Middleton Tompkins. That Whidden, a very experienced High Master, 4-time previous champion, selected the .243 Win for his long range rifle, speaks for itself.

There are of course .243's in bad rifles and even more bad marksmen shooting them. Then there are fools who think any 6mm bullet is a good choice for elk, moose, or tough African plains game. As Ruark wrote, Use enough gun!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I once had a Savage M340 30/30 bolt gun & 2.5x Weaver scope, using 130 grain & 150 Taipan spitzer bullets, sent many pigs to pig heaven in the 1970s, the 30/30 is a good old cartridge.

@rdog
Those old Tipans were great bullets. I still have almost 300 135 grainers for the old threeO. A lot of pigs died in field trials with these.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I bought a Remington 788 in 30/30 about 2 years ago because I have a lot of 30/30 ammunition for lever action silhouette competition. The 788 in 30/30 shoots about the same as my 788 in 22/250 and better than my Remington 700 in 280.
Rimmed cartridges and forward locking bolt actions like a 700 or Mauser do not go together. The 788 is rear locking as are Winchester 94 and Marlin 336.
Despite being rear locking the 788 is inherently accurate because the receiver is very short and very stiff with a very small ejection port.
Rumor has it that Remington was embarrassed that it’s cheap 788 was more accurate than its more expensive 700.

@Finprof
Rimmed cartridges and front locking mauser type actions go very well together. Just ask any P14 Enfield owner. Plus can be accurate to boot.

3 shot group with a rimmed cartridge and a front locking P14 action.
Bob

 

[rdog]

@Finprof
Rimmed cartridges and front locking mauser type actions go very well together. Just ask any P14 Enfield owner. Plus can be accurate to boot.
View attachment 508362
3 shot group with a rimmed cartridge and a front locking P14 action.
Bob

Bob you make me want to build a rifle on a m17 or p14 may be a 303/25? i have the dies & brass. but i have too many gun now.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bob you make me want to build a rifle on a m17 or p14 may be a 303/25? i have the dies & brass.

@rdog
I have the reamer for the EPPS version
Would love to build on on a 1885 hill action or Browning 78 copy of it with a 28 inch barrel.
Bob

 

[CoElkHunter]

Bob you make me want to build a rifle on a m17 or p14 may be a 303/25? i have the dies & brass. but i have too many gun now.

Or maybe Bob's .25 Samurai? .25-7.7 Jap. More powder capacity than the .303.