Shooting vs Hunting / A Growing Ethical Issue

[odonata]

I live in a state with an abundant deer population & mostly moderate shots because of the trees & vegetation. So I don't face a lot of these problems. But it is still an interesting discussion.

My main rhetorical question is what percentage of hunters are taking really long sniper-style shots at distant animals? In today's media-driven world, particularly noisy individuals can sometimes amplify their behavior or influence others to be copycats. But how big of a problem is this really? I honestly don't know but I always hate it when the majority is punished for the actions of a smaller group.

The only way I know that the government can discourage long-range shooting is by limiting the equipment used (e.g. straight-walled cartridges, large calibers with an exposed hammer, etc.). But the last thing I want to see is more regulations to contend with. I'm currently trying to juggle the differences between multiple states and that's pain enough.

Everyone has certain personal biases. I'm a fan of having plenty of energy delivered on target and cringe a little bit at small calibers being used on large animals. But some people have been very successful at this and probably roll their eyes at me because I use "too much gun". So I just keep my mouth shut because the hunters I know personally are all hunting safely & ethically and we set that expectation amongst ourselves.

 

[375Fox]

I know that my opinion will be extremely unpopular in this thread, but I’ll just put some matters into perspective.

Some hunters want to ban bow hunting
Some hunters want to ban buckshot
Some hunters want to ban hunting over torchlight
Some hunters want to ban hunting over hounds
Some hunters want to ban hunting over bait
Some hunters want to ban hunting over waterholes
Some hunters want to ban driven hunts
Some hunters want to ban semi automatic rifles
Some hunters want to ban muzzle loaders
Some hunters want to ban repeating rifles (e.g: John Pondoro Taylor)
Some hunters want to ban elephant hunting
Some hunters want to ban lion hunting (both wild AND CBL)
Some hunters want to ban bear hunting
Some hunters want to ban predator hunting
Some hunters want to ban “Trophy Hunting” (without fully understanding what “Trophy Hunting” really is)
Some hunters want to ban certain calibers for hunting
Some hunters want to ban telescopic sights
Some hunters want to ban high capacity magazines

And of course… some hunters want to limit the ranges game can be taken at.

With absolutely no disrespect aimed towards my fellow American/Canadian/British/European/Australian hunters… you all are blessed in the Western world to have so many freedoms regarding firearms & hunting. Blessed in ways that many of you can’t fully begin to appreciate yet. Blessed in ways that many take for granted.

I’ll offer a perspective from the East. We (India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines, Vietnam, Japan) used to have relatively lax restrictions upon firearms & hunting. It wasn’t anti hunters & anti gun owners that did us in. It was our own kind. In-fighting between hunters who felt the need to look down upon any form of hunting which is different to the manner by which THEY hunt. And look where it got us. All these countries now have severe restrictions in terms of hunting laws & firearms ownership (hunting being outright banned in India). Unrepentant hunter as I am, the harsh reality about us is that we’re a deeply judgmental self righteous sort. I’m an IGF (Inspector General Of Forests) and a former CCF (Chief Conservator Of Forests). There was not a hunting related bill in my part of the world which gets approved without my signature. And I say this with absolutely zero arrogance but I know what I’m talking about.

We talk about “Fair Chase”. Well, what exactly constitutes “Fair” ? What might be fair to hunter A, might not be fair to hunter B. Even the article shared by the original poster highlights this issue. Some hunters think that 600 yards is too long a shot. Some draw the line at 400. I personally seldom take a shot over 100 yards and mostly hunt with iron sights. So am I entitled to demand a ban for telescopic sighted rifles ? I personally think that doing so would make me incredibly self centered.

Sure, while pushing for another restrictive measure on hunting… we’ll temporarily find an ally in the anti hunting crowd. But make no mistake. Once they’ve “Helped” you ban long range hunting, they’ll simply turn against you and push for more restrictions upon hunting until hunting itself becomes completely banned. These people are not our friends.

My motto is “Hunt & Let Hunt”. There are many personal dislikes which one is obviously entitled to have. A few weeks ago, somebody here posted a thread about wanting to hunt an elephant with a bow & arrow. I don’t think very highly of this stunt at all, but I’m not going to push for a ban against dangerous game hunting with a bow. That other hunter has just as much rights as I do.

And I’m also vehemently opposed to involving the government. They often impose a blanket prohibition without fully addressing all factors. For instance, in 1918… American Federal law banned any 8 gauge shotgun (or larger) for the purposes of waterfowl hunting. The reasoning was that an 8 gauge shotgun makes it incredibly easy to secure large bags of waterfowl. Well, let’s see. An 8 gauge cartridge holds 56 grams of shot. Today, a modern 12 gauge 3.5” Magnum shell holds 63 grams of shot. And that’s perfectly legal for waterfowl. Yet the 8 gauge remains banned today, even though the logic behind it’s ban is no longer sound. The point is, when a government imposes a restriction… it becomes damned hard to overturn the restriction.

Would I take an antelope at 2000 yards ? Hell, no. I deem anything above 300 yards to be unsporting in my personal code of ethics. Far too many hunters these days think that they’re the Simo Hayha, Carlos Hathcock or Chris Kyle of Shikar. And they tend to view game animals as enemy soldiers. But I still ask all of you to properly reconsider pushing for any sort of legislation restricting a form of hunting without fully understanding the Domino effects & unintended consequences.

The method of take may not matter in countries managed on quotas. A tag in the US in not a quota. There is a built in failure rate due to short seasons or method of take to minimize the harvest and maximize hunter opportunity to participate. If your motto is “Hunt and let Hunt” then I’d consider the repercussions of higher success rates due to long range shooting and equipment doubling and tripling effective range. The only methods to reduce harvest without changing regulations on legal equipment is to reduce tags (likely non-resident allotments) and shorten seasons creating less opportunity for hunters. There are domino effects and unintended consequences of doing nothing too. It’s worth a discussion rather than trying to generalize as banning hunting. It’s a Wyoming and western state issue and up to them to discuss. The rest of us can only have an opinion.

8 gauges and larger were also banned in an effort to put an end to commercial market hunting. They were often boat mounted for shooting ducks on water.

 

[R eight]

I agree, keep the government out of it.

It is a different form of trophy looking for glory on internet forums, the same as big horns or grip and grin photos for internet forums, and medals and certificates for the wall.

The best way is to not praise it, but speak up against it.

Few hunters ever post about misses or worse wounded or lost animals.

Yeah, I sort of agree with most of that. It’s a cultural issue and in my opinion can only be changed from within. I reckon it’d be a long, slow journey. But, worth the effort.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Yeah, I sort of agree with most of that. It’s a cultural issue and in my opinion can only be changed from within. I reckon it’d be a long, slow journey. But, worth the effort.

This is the way to move the needle. Give long range killing a Scarlet Letter. Have organizations give awards for the stalk not the animal. Just as the Rigby award has changed the Buffalo scoring mindset in 3 short years. The hunting community could slow this trend.

But as said above. Is it really an issue. Or overblown? Fred Bear and Howard Hill would shoot arrows at animals at ridiculous yardage. People with sharps rifles often shot 1000 yards 150 years ago.

Also as Hunter-Habib says. If you ask the government to fix it. The crocodile will eventually come for your style of hunting. Letting a bureaucrat “fix” it would look like this. An Elk has this much square inch kill zone. Therefore 300 yard max shooting range. A whitetail 100 yards. Coyote 25 yards, prairie dog 5 yards. The greenies would dictate any life is as valuable as the next. Why would you allow a coyote to be shot at extreme range and not an Elk. Huge mistake letting any government agency into that rabbit hole.

Traditional archery snobs looks down at compound bow hunters that shoot 50 yards. Who look down at crossbow hunters that shoot 100 yards. We all think our way is the righteous way.

 

[Russ16]

I am also uncomfortable with trying to legislate this type of ethics.

At the same time I’ve become increasingly uncomfortable with the direction a lot of hunting couture is going. Long range shooting is part of that. I think the social media and podcast world is driving so much of this.

I heard one of the Gunwerks guys on a podcast the other day talking about shooting an elk at 900 yards. He was saying “what if that’s the only elk you see that day if you aren’t prepared to take that shot you won’t get an elk.” My response would be it’s ok if the animal wins. I’ve been on expensive hunts where I came home empty handed. But they are still fantastic memories. I’m not sure the current generation would see it that way though.

Ironically the turkey hunting world is having the opposite debate over “reaping” where these guys hide behind decoys or sometimes wear them like hats. At first it looks fun to get within 3 yards of a turkey to kill it. But then I start thinking about whether it does make it too easy and if so the impact on game numbers. I saw a post on Instagram of a guy who had been traveling all over hunting turkey and bragging that he had been part of 53 kills this year.

As a kid I was taught not to be a game hog and that when you thought you were in range get closer. Those were themes in the hunting media. The outdoor media today is trying to sell products for advertisers. You don’t need a new “platform” or scope with ballistic turrets to shoot your deer at 150 yards. So the writers and companies have to talk about long ranges to sell new guns and carrtridges and scopes and kestrels and everything else.

Sorry for the ramble but this topic has been on my mind for a while now sink appreciate the post. I don’t have an answer for any of it but I have real concerns about what’s coming next for hunting.

 

[Shako Badhan]

As others have said I don’t think there is a regulatory fix for this, it’s a cultural issue.

Nobody will say it out loud, but a lot of the cultural around western hunting is basically GWOT LARPing.

People are just play acting hunting Tarry Taliban without the danger of stepping on something that will kill them or being shot at. It’s not an elk hunt, it’s a movement to contact.

Gun and hunting industry media promote it because of all the stuff people end up buying so they can feel like Chris Kyle. Unfortunately I think this is starting to creep into African hunting.

 

[CBH Australia]

It’s not good practice and not ethical hunting in my book.

Who wants to walk another 2000 yards to retrieve the animal.

What cartridge choices or minimum calibre and energy would be allowed officially or permitted if they are going to ensure clean kills on game at that distance with high probability?

It’s probably easy to legislate but hard to enforce. But it might keep honest people honest and stop people taking chances if they might be committing an offence.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

8 gauges and larger were also banned in an effort to put an end to commercial market hunting. They were often boat mounted for shooting ducks on water.

@375Fox , I agree with everything you've stated on this thread but let me correct the above point.

Punt guns mounted on sneak boats were much larger than 8 gauge. A few years ago I was active in collecting and shooting vintage shotguns including one each DH and GH grade Parker 8 gauge guns. My two 8 gauge guns weighed appoximately 14 pounds and once brought into a swing at targets, they handled very well.

I am far from a great wingshot. Too many years trying to hold steady in CMP and NRA High Power Service Rifle competitions. Anyway at the AH Fox Collector Association's Bo Whoop long range clay pigeon challange at Hausmanns Hidden Hollow me and my 8 gauge would break clay pigeons at 80 yard and more, shot after shot. Of course the 8 gauge wasn't legal in that contest but it sure was fun! Not just for me, no sir, I let others experiance the ease of breaking clays at long range wiht a 14+ pound gun launching a ounce and 3/4 of # 7.5 hard shot!

The maximum load for my Parkers was two and 3/4 ounce of shot. I think a good wingshot could kill ducks a 100 yards or more consistantly with that load of lead shot.

 

[93marlin]

You can’t but you can define legal equipment. How far were most hunters willing to take shots before ballistic turrets became commonplace in hunting?

I'm not really sure if MORE legislation is a terrific idea.

 

[Uncontrolled_round_feed]

It is becoming a major problem out west. Just thinking about my friend group or people I have hunted with, I know multiple guys who have shot big game 700-1000 yards (usually sheep, elk, big deer)

Self regulation would work great with the crew in this forum (more gentlemanly crowd) but we are outnumbered by bullet-lobbers willing to take a poke. The only way to actually cause a change is through regulation of equipment (not practice). And that is quite doable and is in fact already being done in the muzzleloading world.

 

[Uncontrolled_round_feed]

I'm not really sure if MORE legislation is a terrific idea.

I too have an instinctive preference for less government and @Hunter-Habib has noted some thoughts as well.

Unfortunately, the issue is that in ‘tragedy of the commons’ situation it is needed.

The easiest comparison is the banning of lead shot for waterfowl. Huge stink amongst many hunters at the time but a very good decision in the long run.

 

[uplander01]

Some of the main problems are tv shows, social media/youtube, and companies that push “long range” rifle setups that are all dialed in. selling to guys that probably don’t even practice, they just think they have a magic dial on their optic and all they have to do is pull the trigger. I won’t name names, but we all know who those companies are.

I have worked in the firearms industry for 25 years and this is a heated topic, been brewing for some years now. I for one really enjoy shooting at a 1000 yard range, but that rifle, that skill set, and mentality don’t play a part in my brain at all when I have a tag in my pocket. Even though I understand the technology, have the equipment, and can do the long range thing quite effectively, that is not hunting imo. I’ll stick to my 300 and under rule, if the shot requires turret manipulation no thank you, and also would prefer to not hunt with you. My actual preference is spot and stalk, archery ranges with rifles equipped with low power scope or even better open sight and the cleanest, quickest most effective kill as possible.

Another problem is the overall health and physical properties of a lot of hunters nowadays. I mean if you can’t bring yourself to get in shape before a hunt that you know you are going to tax yourself to the limits in the given terrain, but would rather just drag your fat ass up a hillside and start lobbing bullets at extreme ranges you shouldn’t call yourself a hunter. iMO

 

[PARA45]

It was here that I saw a video of a female shooting at a cow elk at 688 yds with 243 caliber rifle. Here is the link.

Thread 'Elk at 688 yards with a 243'

Oct 18, 2023

• colorado
• Replies: 385
• Forum: Firearms & ammunition

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Stupid stuff like this is what it is killing our sport. Not to mention our own arrogance. This gives more ammunition to the greenies to use against us and have used against us. I've read on here that you have to shoot a Buffalo at less than 100 yds or you are not hunting, and I've also read here some on this forum who have shot a Buffalo at 100 yds. So, which one is it? The same goes about hunting from a tree stand, and over 100 lbs of corn, or a feeder.

I don't agree with the extended range shooting of animals. But who am I to judge? I've said it before, and going to say it again. We are our worst enemy.

 

[deewayne2003]

I’ve seen this creeping in for years and don’t like it, while don’t know how you would go about regulating it without infringing on the lawful and ethical acts of others.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Long ago I shot competition with many national and international champions. Some fellow competitors were also Marine Corps snipers. From them I got to know other snipers and even conversed with the legendary Carlos Hathcock. I also had many one on one conversations mostly listening to Colonel David Willis, CO of Marine Corps Weapons Training Battalion and the Scout Sniper School. I learned much from the Colonel who when enlisted, had served as a sniper. He didn't talk about any of his kills. Overall, those cold blooded killers were the humblest people I’ve ever met. They did not discuss sniping, not the killing, with just anyone, not even a fellow Marine like me. They were like the Korea and WWII vets. I don’t think that they wanted to dwell on what they had to do.

With modern range finding and wind measuring equipment, ballistic compensating scopes, and CNC machined rifles, any YouTube watching sniper wanna-be can buy their way into accuracy. Practice, correct practice and the best of them can make 1000 your kills on game animals. Those long range kills are impressive but they don’t make those shooters a pimple on a sniper’s arse any more than my shooting competition awards combined with USMC service make me a sniper. Far from it…

Snipers must slip into a position for a one-shot kill and be able to egress back to safety. Upon the second shot, the enemy will know the bearing from which the shots came. Hunters don’t have to worry about suppressing fire including mortars raining down on them!

Overall, long range shooting competitions are great for all of us as they strengthen our gun rights community. But, long range animal killings posted on YouTube don’t communicate much for hunting ethics.

Playing sniper is fun. No argument there. There is more than a little personal satisfaction in hitting small targets past 600 yards. Military service, ground service with crawling through the mud and swamps is not fun. It is hard, physically and even more so, mentally grueling.

A fellow Marine competitive shooter, the only Marine at the time to have twice scored 990 out of 1000 points in 200 to 600 yard service rifle matches, responded when asked if he wanted to go through the sniper school to gain a secondary MOS of sniper, “I already know how to shoot. Why would I want to spend weeks crawling through the mud with a rifle?”

 

[Hogpatrol]

Virtue Signaling. It's almost in pandemic mode on every topic in hunting forums. Any time politicians get involved in hunting, it usually doesn't end well. Look at our import restrictions.

 

[Jeff505]

Thanks for sharing Joe. While not trying to turn this into a political discussion I am reminded of John Adams quote referring to the US constitution. “Our constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other”. While obviously not invoking a religious connotation we as hunters have an ethical responsibility to promote those values that are consistent with our pursuit of game. Self governess and peer pressure of common and ethical values would seem to be the answer rather than government regulation. To me trying to get as close as possible for an ethical shot is hunting, shooting at an animal to see who can make the longest kill shot is not.

 

[Hogpatrol]

While we're at it, lets ban TROPHY hunting. It's at the bottom of the list on what Americans opinion is about hunting.

Americans' Attitudes Toward Hunting and Sport Shooting 2024 Report - Shooting and Hunting Council

Americans' Attitudes Toward Hunting and Sport Shooting 2024 - report from the Council to Advance Hunting and the Shooting Sports, in collaboration with Responsive Management.

cahss.org

 

[Bonk]

You can’t but you can define legal equipment. How far were most hunters willing to take shots before ballistic turrets became commonplace in hunting?

Beat me to it. I hate the idea of the government getting involved but there are all kinds of equipment restrictions throughout hunting regulations. I was going to recommend limiting scopes on hunting rifles to a maximum magnification, for example 3-9X40. That would preclude most ethical hunters from attempting uber long range shots. I don’t like the concept of having to do that but something needs to change.

 

[Flipper Dude]

Beat me to it. I hate the idea of the government getting involved but there are all kinds of equipment restrictions throughout hunting regulations. I was going to recommend limiting scopes on hunting rifles to a maximum magnification, for example 3-9X40. That would preclude most ethical hunters from attempting uber long range shots. I don’t like the concept of having to do that but something needs to change.

I’m liking 1-4 X 24 much better. But that’s just me. If you can’t take an animal with a 4X scope, get closer. If you can’t get closer, find another animal. If you can’t find another animal, come back next year. It ain’t the end of the world. And keep off of my grass, while you’re at it.