Rhino, Elephant, and Lion in one hunt

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

It is extremely unfortunate that fencing is a criterion in choosing an acceptable hunt. Sure, there are some areas left that aren't fenced, but I am far more put off on a hunt by seeing locals wandering around with their bicycles and cattle than knowing that in the far distance there is a fence to keep the two apart. The criterion that should perhaps be applied to a certain category is 'sustainable' as many have said, and that really just means breeding herds.
perhaps the answer is to create three categories, open, full disclosure and clients choose:
1. Unfenced, wild areas, example Selous, Zambezi Valley, etc.
2. Fenced game farms or areas with sustainable populations, example Save Conservancy and the larger South African farms. Not minimum size, just sustainable.
3. Place and take.

Obviously the price would diminish from category 1 to 3.
Do not pour scorn on class 3, it definitely has it's place to a certain sector including the biltong hunters. A word of caution from one who has lived here all my life and understands the 'African way'. The game breeding industry in South Africa generates a large amount of internal economic well being, AND it delineates and protects vast areas of land, albeit some in small pockets. Destroy that and see how long before it turns into squatters and goats!
In summary, choose your category and pay your money, but keep your lofty opinions and critisisms of the categories you don't like to yourself, because ALL ARE NECESSARY.

Agreed Kevin, but think that it needs to be stated that Option 3 is certainly the exception and not the norm for South Africa.

 

[IvW]

Agreed and should not be accepted....

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Elephant PAC for non residents, not allowed in Zim. Each CAMPFIRE community set their own prices. Binga council charges us a ridiculously high price! We put up almost no mark up on elephant, just to keep the price down. You will do a lot better to "think" non-trophy or non-exportable than to think tuskless.

While hunting in a CAMPFIRE area you must not only obey National Parks Law, you must obey the local CAMPFIRES rules. In our area we are allowed to use a spotlight, but not a electronic caller. When you are looking for a "deal", remember African prisons are not nice.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

It is extremely unfortunate that fencing is a criterion in choosing an acceptable hunt. Sure, there are some areas left that aren't fenced, but I am far more put off on a hunt by seeing locals wandering around with their bicycles and cattle than knowing that in the far distance there is a fence to keep the two apart. The criterion that should perhaps be applied to a certain category is 'sustainable' as many have said, and that really just means breeding herds.
perhaps the answer is to create three categories, open, full disclosure and clients choose:
1. Unfenced, wild areas, example Selous, Zambezi Valley, etc.
2. Fenced game farms or areas with sustainable populations, example Save Conservancy and the larger South African farms. Not minimum size, just sustainable.
3. Place and take.

Obviously the price would diminish from category 1 to 3.
Do not pour scorn on class 3, it definitely has it's place to a certain sector including the biltong hunters. A word of caution from one who has lived here all my life and understands the 'African way'. The game breeding industry in South Africa generates a large amount of internal economic well being, AND it delineates and protects vast areas of land, albeit some in small pockets. Destroy that and see how long before it turns into squatters and goats!
In summary, choose your category and pay your money, but keep your lofty opinions and critisisms of the categories you don't like to yourself, because ALL ARE NECESSARY.

With apologies to the OP for further derailing the thread and with all due respect, could you please explain to me exactly how put and take is ethical, where conservation enters in and how it is a necessary, responsible, respectable, legitimate mode of operation? This is a serious question.

 

[Tanks]

...

Obviously the price would diminish from category 1 to 3.
...

For buffalo and elephant I have found at least as far as Zimbabwe is concerned DG is actually about the same or even cheaper than South African farms. I am not sure if Leopard is available to hunt in RSA as I haven't seen any ads for it and of course lion is much. much cheaper in RSA for obvious reasons.

 

[Rare Breed]

I totally agree

Wow everyone...please don’t misunderstand me...so many of you have been on so many African hunts that you appreciate the nuances. I am going on my second and have booked a third safari with Elephant being after my two buffalo. Please remember that most of us desire the experience and could not tell the difference of 50,000 acres or one million. The African experience keeps me excited all year

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

With apologies to the OP for further derailing the thread and with all due respect, could you please explain to me exactly how put and take is ethical, where conservation enters in and how it is a necessary, responsible, respectable, legitimate mode of operation? This is a serious question.

Hi Wishfulthinker, I hear you. If only Africa was a vast wilderness there for our hunting and safari pleasure where everything was in balance, nothing got poached and nothing went extinct. Unfortunately not, and commercial exploitation is about all that keeps the precious remnants from disappearing all together. If it were not for the South African game breeders the hartebeest and bless bok would probably be gone, we wouldn't have the abundance of sable that have become affordable to hunt, and the list can go on and on. Of course there must be commercial offtake! If a beast in the industry, and it is an industry, dies of old age that is a 100% loss. The breeders have been solely responsible for replenishing the stock, populating new areas, and in growing the industry with all the supporting and associated parts like hunting shops, suppliers, outfitters. It all needs to be not only financially viable but managed. We see management hunts here and dont bat an eyelid, but when smaller farm hunts are offered there is an adverse reaction. 'Place and take' was the wrong description and I apologise for using it. Perhaps 'smaller farm hunts' is better. There are of course bad apples amongst this group who do stupid and unsavoury things and they should of course be condemned. But beware of condemning the commercial nursery side of the game industry, you will find the alternative use of that land far less palateable - I have seen it, it is not pretty. That is all I am saying, it isn't even my country, but I get tired of the endless critisism of the rose coloured glasses view of what a lot of thought has led me to accept as a very important part of the sustainability equation.

 

[VertigoBE]

Hi Wishfulthinker, I hear you. If only Africa was a vast wilderness there for our hunting and safari pleasure where everything was in balance, nothing got poached and nothing went extinct. Unfortunately not, and commercial exploitation is about all that keeps the precious remnants from disappearing all together. If it were not for the South African game breeders the hartebeest and bless bok would probably be gone, we wouldn't have the abundance of sable that have become affordable to hunt, and the list can go on and on. Of course there must be commercial offtake! If a beast in the industry, and it is an industry, dies of old age that is a 100% loss. The breeders have been solely responsible for replenishing the stock, populating new areas, and in growing the industry with all the supporting and associated parts like hunting shops, suppliers, outfitters. It all needs to be not only financially viable but managed. We see management hunts here and dont bat an eyelid, but when smaller farm hunts are offered there is an adverse reaction. 'Place and take' was the wrong description and I apologise for using it. Perhaps 'smaller farm hunts' is better. There are of course bad apples amongst this group who do stupid and unsavoury things and they should of course be condemned. But beware of condemning the commercial nursery side of the game industry, you will find the alternative use of that land far less palateable - I have seen it, it is not pretty. That is all I am saying, it isn't even my country, but I get tired of the endless critisism of the rose coloured glasses view of what a lot of thought has led me to accept as a very important part of the sustainability equation.

Hear! Hear!

 

[Deleted member 53080]

Hi Wishfulthinker, I hear you. If only Africa was a vast wilderness there for our hunting and safari pleasure where everything was in balance, nothing got poached and nothing went extinct. Unfortunately not, and commercial exploitation is about all that keeps the precious remnants from disappearing all together. If it were not for the South African game breeders the hartebeest and bless bok would probably be gone, we wouldn't have the abundance of sable that have become affordable to hunt, and the list can go on and on. Of course there must be commercial offtake! If a beast in the industry, and it is an industry, dies of old age that is a 100% loss. The breeders have been solely responsible for replenishing the stock, populating new areas, and in growing the industry with all the supporting and associated parts like hunting shops, suppliers, outfitters. It all needs to be not only financially viable but managed. We see management hunts here and dont bat an eyelid, but when smaller farm hunts are offered there is an adverse reaction. 'Place and take' was the wrong description and I apologise for using it. Perhaps 'smaller farm hunts' is better. There are of course bad apples amongst this group who do stupid and unsavoury things and they should of course be condemned. But beware of condemning the commercial nursery side of the game industry, you will find the alternative use of that land far less palateable - I have seen it, it is not pretty. That is all I am saying, it isn't even my country, but I get tired of the endless critisism of the rose coloured glasses view of what a lot of thought has led me to accept as a very important part of the sustainability equation.

First off, I want to apologize for the tone of my post yesterday. I think we are fairly close in our thinking. I realize that Africa has changed and safari has changed. I also realize that here in the US we enjoy the luxury of not having to deal with rampant poaching or squatters and that things are more complex in Africa than they are here. I’m well aware of the fact that more than a few species have been brought back from the brink of extinction or kept from extinction through the efforts of people in the commercial hunting industry (I concede it’s an industry), more specifically the games farms or “ranches” in Africa (especially RSA) as well as in the States (especially Texas), although I firmly believe the vast majority of high fence exotic and all high fence native species operations in this day and age in the US aren’t ethical and should not exist.

I’m not against commercial hunting or management hunts at all, as long as it’s done in a responsible, sustainable and ethical way. The only way I believe an operation meets that criteria is if an operation is taking animals from a healthy, breeding population in an appropriately sized area for the species hunted. I understand the need to cull and to introduce new genetics into a captive population to deal with inbreeding.

What I do not and will not understand is the practice of shipping animals into a property for the sole purpose of accommodating a steady stream of hunters whose take far exceeds the carrying capacity of said property. This is not ethical IMO and should not be accepted or approved of. This practice, which is void of ethics and conservation, is driven by greed of the operator and the desire of a trophy above all else on the part of the hunters who participate in it.

I know this subject has been beaten to death. I also know my opinion isn’t perfect and is worthless as I don’t have any experience.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

First off, I want to apologize for the tone of my post yesterday. I think we are fairly close in our thinking. I realize that Africa has changed and safari has changed. I also realize that here in the US we enjoy the luxury of not having to deal with rampant poaching or squatters and that things are more complex in Africa than they are here. I’m well aware of the fact that more than a few species have been brought back from the brink of extinction or kept from extinction through the efforts of people in the commercial hunting industry (I concede it’s an industry), more specifically the games farms or “ranches” in Africa (especially RSA) as well as in the States (especially Texas), although I firmly believe the vast majority of high fence exotic and all high fence native species operations in this day and age in the US aren’t ethical and should not exist.

I’m not against commercial hunting or management hunts at all, as long as it’s done in a responsible, sustainable and ethical way. The only way I believe an operation meets that criteria is if an operation is taking animals from a healthy, breeding population in an appropriately sized area for the species hunted. I understand the need to cull and to introduce new genetics into a captive population to deal with inbreeding.

What I do not and will not understand is the practice of shipping animals into a property for the sole purpose of accommodating a steady stream of hunters whose take far exceeds the carrying capacity of said property. This is not ethical IMO and should not be accepted or approved of. This practice, which is void of ethics and conservation, is driven by greed of the operator and the desire of a trophy above all else on the part of the hunters who participate in it.

I know this subject has been beaten to death. I also know my opinion isn’t perfect and is worthless as I don’t have any experience.

No your opinion is not worthless Wishfulthinker, you have very good points. My concern for our beautiful Africa is that it has an uncanny propensity to maximum disorder and it is a constant battle to try to preserve what we love because it is often what the vast majority either don't like or couldn't give two hoots about. The most effective weapon we have is money generation and thank God for you hunters from the USA and Europe who support hunting here. Next comes utilisation, because that fence and something going on within seems to be a bit of a barrier. If one day we could entice the locals to participate in sport hunting that would seal the deal, but for now such folks are rare, they rather see animals as nyama (meat only.) it will come.

 

[mark-hunter]

If one day we could entice the locals to participate in sport hunting that would seal the deal,

Only if.
In East Africa, when first game laws were passed by whites, I think it is then when the term ""white hunter - black poacher" was coined.
While whites, hunt for sport, trophy and meat (and are willing to invest in the sport), local populations mostly hunt for meet, or ivory and biltong to sell.
It is cultural difference.

Then if indigenous people will hunt on private property, would they be able to pay for the fee (in the level paid by foreign clients)? Consider also, prices of rifles and ammo. So it is a matter of social and cultural differences.

Campfire system is one good solution, for communal land, but it is not solution for all African local circumstances.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Only if.
In East Africa, when first game laws were passed by whites, I think it is then when the term ""white hunter - black poacher" was coined.
While whites, hunt for sport, trophy and meat (and are willing to invest in the sport), local populations mostly hunt for meet, or ivory to sell.
It is cultural difference.

Then if indigenous people will hunt on private property, would they be able to pay for the fee (in the level paid by foreign clients)? Consider also, prices of rifles and ammo. So it is a matter of social and cultural differences.

Campfire system is one good solution, for communal land, but it is not solution for all African local circumstances.

True Mark, but I am talking more about the top level locals who are now the life blood of the golf clubs, they love competition fishing and have some beautiful boats. Sport hunting will come. They will keep the poachers under control.

 

[jgonzalez]

You interested I can set it up all 3 same area.....50 000 acres self sustainable

Hello IvW, I wrote a PM to you regarding this. Did you receive it? I´m not sure if I´m using this system well.
Thanks

 

[Frederik]

It took me a while to read through most of the posts and its very interesting to see that everyone has their own opinion and experiences. If that wasnt the case the world would have been boring.

One thing I would like to point out that has not been adressed while looking down on hunting practises that has been talked about.

Isn't it more destructive for conservation for a country to decide that importation of a trophy is not allowed? How many elephant hunts are lost in much needed income and management as an example?
As a hunter you have to abide to your own ethics and its your choice to pull that trigger or not.

There are many areas and farms that have self sustained huntable populations and in some demographics it allows for smaller areas and some bigger. Thet post that was done over the lions taken in Greater Kruger and saying that the numbers don't add up as the area is not big enough is forgetting that the Greater Kruger area gets filled up naturally from the Kruger park itself.

Lion numbers are very limited and when one male is hunted another moves in the area the lion population in Kruger is very healthy.

So for the original post you could and will be able to hunt the dangerous 7 in the Greater Kruger area as leopard permits is restricted but obtainable again. The rhino might be hunted on a private farm outside the Greater Kruger but all within 2 hours drive to do all dangerous 7.