Proposed BATF ban on privately made weapons - Gun Grab Forthcoming

[rookhawk]

Approximately 400,000 to 500,000 bump stocks have been manufactured. Approximately 400-1000 have been turned in to authorities as is required by the Trump rule change. The remaining half million people now own machine guns in violation of the National Firearms Act.

Update! I am incorrect! “the U.S. Justice Department banned them at the federal level in December 2018. However, on March 25, 2021, the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals struck down the ban.[8]”

 

[rookhawk]

Just a quick anecdote if some of you are thinking only of ARs and Glocks built from 80% kits.

I’ve owned a couple of guns that I know to be a fact they were made before 1968 and therefore they didn‘t need serial numbers. Thankfully, they did have serial numbers on barrels, or magazine floor plates, wherever the maker decided to place a reasonable mark. I was always backstopped by not just the fact that I have ledgers that show when they were made, or that their features prove an action dated for a very narrow range of years, but also because they had a serial number.

With the new law change the burden of proof will be to demonstrate A.) it wasn’t home made, B.) explain why it doesn’t have a serial number marked the new BATF way on the RECEIVER of the gun. This will be the new gray area. Have a nice mauser sporter? Springfield? Does it have the serial number on the receiver, or somewhere else? Does it have a maker’s name to prove who made it and that it wasn’t home built by you? In ambiguous situations, the law works against the citizen.

In my State the state regulates muzzleloaders and air rifles, they have to have a firearms owners ID to purchase and a 4473 background check is used to vet the purchase. That requires a serial number. What about a home built muzzleloader? Not a regulated federal gun, but the federal system is the means to make it a legal state purchase. What if you own a home built muzzleloader? Mark them or you’re a felon? It could go there in those bizarre paradoxes.

 

[rookhawk]

@rookhawk

They must have changed the time frame, it was 7 days I had read in a previous version.

Scary times indeed.

From the proposed rule: “For Personally Manufactured Firearms acquired by licensees before the effective date of the rule, licensees would be required to mark or cause them to be marked by another licensee either within 60 days from that date, or before the date of final disposition (including to a personal collection), whichever is sooner. “

 

[Cervus elaphus]

Molan Labe’ which I believe translates in Latin to I hope that shit is so hot when you pick up my gun that it burns your fingers you commie prick. Or something like that.

Pretty close

 

[Ike85123]

There's a jewlery shop around the corner from me who also has an FFL. Twenty bucks and he'll engrave anything you want on the barrel, or 80% receiver.

Like the Volstead Act did with booze, this will create a cottage industry in 3D printed guns and I guarantee in the big cities there are smart people buying those machines now in anticipation of the rule.
The feds will be busting printing houses instead of stills. Almost too funny how naive and ignorant of history's lessons some people can be

Those that refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Or, they will use it as an excuse for a bigger federal police hiring boom !

 

[jpr9954]

From the proposed rule: “For Personally Manufactured Firearms acquired by licensees before the effective date of the rule, licensees would be required to mark or cause them to be marked by another licensee either within 60 days from that date, or before the date of final disposition (including to a personal collection), whichever is sooner. “

The key word in all of this is "licensees". Unless any of us hold a FFL, we are NOT licensees. The rule applies to those engaged in the sale, repair, or manufacture of firearms. It applies most directly to their inventory of Polymer80 and other kits acquired pre-rule change.

You and I are not being required to get our PMFs in their terms serialized (unless you live in one of those non-free states) unless we want to be able to transfer or sell it. Under current law, you and I are free to make any and all non-NFA items without a license for our own personal use. We cannot, however, transfer or sell that PMF.

Moreover, while ATF can change a definition or regulation, they cannot make what was not criminal into a criminal act. The courts have ruled only Congress can do that.

 

[sestoppelman]

The key word in all of this is "licensees". Unless any of us hold a FFL, we are NOT licensees. The rule applies to those engaged in the sale, repair, or manufacture of firearms. It applies most directly to their inventory of Polymer80 and other kits acquired pre-rule change.

You and I are not being required to get our PMFs in their terms serialized (unless you live in one of those non-free states) unless we want to be able to transfer or sell it. Under current law, you and I are free to make any and all non-NFA items without a license for our own personal use. We cannot, however, transfer or sell that PMF.

Moreover, while ATF can change a definition or regulation, they cannot make what was not criminal into a criminal act. The courts have ruled only Congress can do that.

Thanks for noting the salient point, "licensees", which most of us are not.

Just a quick anecdote if some of you are thinking only of ARs and Glocks built from 80% kits.

I’ve owned a couple of guns that I know to be a fact they were made before 1968 and therefore they didn‘t need serial numbers. Thankfully, they did have serial numbers on barrels, or magazine floor plates, wherever the maker decided to place a reasonable mark. I was always backstopped by not just the fact that I have ledgers that show when they were made, or that their features prove an action dated for a very narrow range of years, but also because they had a serial number.

With the new law change the burden of proof will be to demonstrate A.) it wasn’t home made, B.) explain why it doesn’t have a serial number marked the new BATF way on the RECEIVER of the gun. This will be the new gray area. Have a nice mauser sporter? Springfield? Does it have the serial number on the receiver, or somewhere else? Does it have a maker’s name to prove who made it and that it wasn’t home built by you? In ambiguous situations, the law works against the citizen.

In my State the state regulates muzzleloaders and air rifles, they have to have a firearms owners ID to purchase and a 4473 background check is used to vet the purchase. That requires a serial number. What about a home built muzzleloader? Not a regulated federal gun, but the federal system is the means to make it a legal state purchase. What if you own a home built muzzleloader? Mark them or you’re a felon? It could go there in those bizarre paradoxes.

But again, much of what you are saying here presupposes that somehow there will be some type of move to register or confiscate firearms, which currently would not be legal. Mausers? Springfields? All have a nice easy to read SN on the receiver. Why borrow trouble?
Muzzleloaders? ATF lists them as non firearms. Some states do treat them as such, but not the Fed.
I think too much is being made of this proposed rule change to see that SN's are added by the MAKERS of these so called ghost guns.

 

[Rick Cox]

How is any of this remotely connected to hunting, let alone hunting in Africa?

 

[sestoppelman]

If it doesnt interest you what do you care, and why even reply to the thread? When I see subjects that I dont care about I just move on.

 

[jpr9954]

How is any of this remotely connected to hunting, let alone hunting in Africa?

Gun control is gun control whether it is a Polymer80 80% frame or a scoped rifle. That scoped rifle in .300 Winchester Magnum could just as easily be called a "sniper rifle" as a rifle for plains game. I mean don't many military snipers use a bolt-action, scoped rifle in .300 Win Mag?

I am in the defend all firearms and all hunting types camp even if I don't have all types of firearms (though I'm trying!) and I probably will never hunt an elephant or lion. Our opponents try to work our divisions all the time whether it is ARs and self-made guns or if it is fox hunting in the UK or dangerous game in Africa. We either stand together or we go down one by one.

 

[VertigoBE]

Oh puhlease, you're not going to go into that tired old cliche about "when they came for my shotgun no one was left" I hope.
Lets not get carried away here, this isnt about black guns, I like and own several and they are not in question here with this SN thing, they already have one like all guns made since 1968.
This is about making guns at home with no SN.
The same tired argument was used on the bump stock ban, look what happened. Nothing, the court has tossed it out, at least for now, probably/maybe get a SCOTUS review, who knows, for now its dead. Bump stocks are essentially legal for those who own one. I think that ban was stupid, just like this one, but it isnt law yet and if it becomes law, good chance it wont survive either.
So just sayin', before we start calling each other Fudds and whatnot, take a deep breath and look at the whole picture.
Going to be a lot of poking holes in the air with lots of fingers, but in the end it wont matter, what will be will be.
I doubt like hell this is the turning point on which our fellow citizens take up arms, in fact I guarantee it.
Write letters and send emails to your reps, send a check to GOA or whatever and hope for the best.

I actually would absolutely re-use that "tired old cliché":

Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) was a prominent Lutheran pastor in Germany. He emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps. He is perhaps best remembered for his postwar words:

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

This is the same reason that for example a hunter "not caring" about limit's on the firearms he himself sees no use for, is wrong in my opinion. Firearm ownership or rather the more vague "Right to defend oneself", in whatever form being limited, by being controlled, subjected to unnecessary bureaucratic hurdles, taxes, or granted as a right by an authority (and thus easily revoked) should not be accepted by any well thinking person. (with the obvious exceptions of convicted criminals, people proven by at least 2 different professionals of being mentally unfit to handle weapons)

 

[spike.t]

How is any of this remotely connected to hunting, let alone hunting in Africa?

I am in africa and gun control anywhere fks me off massively....so there is an African connection.....

 

[sestoppelman]

I actually would absolutely re-use that "tired old cliché":

Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) was a prominent Lutheran pastor in Germany. He emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps. He is perhaps best remembered for his postwar words:


This is the same reason that for example a hunter "not caring" about limit's on the firearms he himself sees no use for, is wrong in my opinion. Firearm ownership or rather the more vague "Right to defend oneself", in whatever form being limited, by being controlled, subjected to unnecessary bureaucratic hurdles, taxes, or granted as a right by an authority (and thus easily revoked) should not be accepted by any well thinking person. (with the obvious exceptions of convicted criminals, people proven by at least 2 different professionals of being mentally unfit to handle weapons)

Yes, I know, but its so trite a cliche', I want to vomit when someone puts it out. I do care about limits on on our ownership of guns, but getting all worked up and flinging old quotes around accomplishes exactly zero.
Standing on a soapbox and pointing our fingers in the air does nothing.
As I said before, unless and until the loud talkers are willing to put it all on the line, this is just an exercise in futility.
About all one can reasonably do is write letters, emails and support with money our gun rights groups like NRA and the GOA etc., and hope the courts can give us a favorable ruling down the line, as they did with the bump stock ban.

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

I am in africa and gun control anywhere fks me off massively....so there is an African connection.....

Thanks. Gun control anywhere is bad for hunters everywhere.

The gun control crowd has global goals.

 

[Woodcarver]

Yes, I know, but its so trite a cliche', I want to vomit when someone puts it out. I do care about limits on on our ownership of guns, but getting all worked up and flinging old quotes around accomplishes exactly zero.
Standing on a soapbox and pointing our fingers in the air does nothing.
As I said before, unless and until the loud talkers are willing to put it all on the line, this is just an exercise in futility.
About all one can reasonably do is write letters, emails and support with money our gun rights groups like NRA and the GOA etc., and hope the courts can give us a favorable ruling down the line, as they did with the bump stock ban.

Those loud talkers are trying to push it, as we speak. So far, those with at least a few brains aren't jumping on board, yet. And that is why it's important to remind all of what has happened elsewhere in the world when otherwise good men did nothing because it didn't, they thought, directly affect them.
And those of us that tend to speak up, do tend to put our money where our mouths are. Despite the in-house political bs going on in the NRA these days, they are still the strongest voice you and I have in DC. They get 2 checks a month from me, and have for decades, and will until I keel over or they no longer exist. Those check's value is supplemented by the emails and calls made in support or opposition to various legislation that I make directly.
I do still have faith in the ballot box. And with what we are seeing from this administration, I am optimistic about the potential change in control in the House, and a return to control in the Senate.
We have been seeing some real positive decisions coming out of the Courts in recent times. Hopefully we see more of that.

 

[Opposite Pole]

Thanks. Gun control anywhere is bad for hunters everywhere.

The gun control crowd has global goals.

This is so smart; I read it twice.

People who were responsible for the suspension of all public land hunting in NSW, Australia (for bullshit reasons) attacked private handgun ownership (wanted it banned completely) within two weeks of the hunting ban being lifted. Antis hate firearms, anything that can be done with firearms and firearm owners. Their goal is a complete and total dissarming of all people, globally.

 

[sestoppelman]

Agree with all that, but maybe for having much faith in our elected officials. I have more faith in the judiciary than Congress or the executive branch regardless who occupies it.

 

[Woodcarver]

Agree with all that, but maybe for having much faith in our elected officials. I have more faith in the judiciary than Congress or the executive branch regardless who occupies it.

Can't argue with that. Especially with the last 3 additions. That is the best legacy of the last administration.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

This is so smart; I read it twice.

People who were responsible for the suspension of all public land hunting in NSW, Australia (for bullshit reasons) attacked private handgun ownership (wanted it banned completely) within two weeks of the hunting ban being lifted. Antis hate firearms, anything that can be done with firearms and firearm owners. Their goal is a complete and total dissarming of all people, globally.

@Opposite Pole
I just got an email from the DPI (Department of Primary Industries) in NSW showing all the state Forrest that are now reopened after covid. There is proposal to open even more land for hunting as well. They are also allowing night hunting of some species of animals, mainly feral pigs which was previously unheard of.
Even tho I don't have a fondness for gov't departments this is one that is ACTUALLY ON THE HUNTERS SIDE. The thing should be commended for not listening to the antis and greenies and actually using a long lost commodity, COMMON SENSE.
While they are doing this I will continue to pay the poultry $60 A year for my R license to be able to hunt millions of acres of state forrest free of charge anytime of the year. Anything that keeps greenies and antis out our areas will always get my vote.
That's why I vote for our Shooters, Fishers and Farmers party in politics as they keep the bastard honest and don't take crap.
Bob

 

[Areaonereal]

A solution...any gang banger caught with a non legal firearm, is sentenced to 49 years in a work camp with no parole. Problem solved. Regardless of the crime.. possession is a done deal...your ass is gone. Bye bye to Mama.