Poor Man's Double Rifle

[IvW]

IvW, that was a fantastic post. You use a 2 3/4 inch round. I wonder what that would be like in a 3 1/2 inch. I bet it would one helluva effective machine.

Only problem for me is that the 12ga 2 3/4 inch is the "African" standard shot shell size.

Finding a 3 1/2 inch in the old Brno side lock is not possible.

The hulls I use are super strong(much thicker than Magtech, they are more than long enough for the task and there is more than enough space to up the charge if needed.

I think the 12ga 3 1/2 inch will only give an advantage when using shot for bird hunting as you can fit more shot in the shell.

I have not found the 12ga 2 3/4 wanting for the purpose.

 

[IvW]

Thank you for posting about this gun!
I have never seen brass hulls with my own eyes. Looks like you can load them longer, leaving more space for powder. More power without excessive pressure? Is there any published load data?

What kind of range can you shoot at, with the peep sight? I suppose the trajectory is fairly curved, so that must be one limiting factor.

The brass hulls I use are thick walled ones and not the thin flimsy ones made for shot.

Let me first just say that there is a big difference between a peep sight and a "Ghost ring sight. A peep sight is designed for precision longer range shooting with iron/open sights, whereas a Ghost ring sight has a large hole and you basically look through the hole only at the front sight and your eye automatically centers the bead in the ring. So with proper fit you just shoulder the rifle, put the bead where the shot needs to go and fire. Works great and is extremely fast.

Think... charging leopard...

I shot the one impala @ 87 large walking paces only with the bead, before I fitted the Ghost ring.

This is not a long range rig, but rather a short to almost off the muzzle leopard stopping gun, however you will be surprised at how well it shoots further out.

I also use it when following bush pigs into really thick stuff hunting with hounds.

Further out just compensate a bit but for me this is a short range cat and pig and well whatever other PG you can get close enough to shoot, just bear in mind that the slug also starts loosing speed more rapidly than a conventional bullet design further out.

Great fun.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Corrections and additional ballistic information to my previous post.

Zero range: 25 yards

Sight height/type: 3/4 inches/ iron blade front/notch rear

Barrel length: 26 inches

At 150 yards:
Drop: -6.40 inches
Energy: 1183 foot pounds
Velocity: 1665 feet per second

At 250 yards:
Drop: -25.47 inches
Energy: 999 foot pounds
Velocity: 1531 feet per second

At 500 yards:
Drop: -144.29 inches
Energy: 662 foot pounds
Velocity: 1246 feet per second

 

[Velo Dog]

IVW,

i checked with a gunsmith today about your idea. he said a problem with cutting the barrels is that if they are not soldered behind the cut, one might have lost any regulation of the shot gun. was it an issue for yours? very cool idea.

Don,

I’m on my 2nd “double slug gun” these days, chokes cut off, wide shallow “V” rear and oversized silver front bead, etc. installed.
I suspect that it would not be anywhere near as effective as a .375, 416, etc., for the proverbial charging grizzly.
However for black bear, I suspect that loaded with Brenneke slugs, it’d crumple the grumpiest black bear very well.
(My original one, loaded with #6 bird shot, did in fact crumple very well our local and much dreaded man-eating spruce grouse - LOL.)

That first slug gun sleeps with the fishes (flipped my canoe against a sweeper on The Little Willow, about 15 years ago hahahaha).
This one is a heavy Spanish made waterfowl gun from the 1970’s that has been rode hard and put away wet, so to speak.
But, due to the cosmetic damage, I got it cheap.
It has 3” chambers, oval cheek piece stock, etc.
Andy Hawk cut off the formerly 30” barrels at 26” now.
He installed the sights and a new “Decelorator” recoil pad, etc.
I’ll bring it over this week so you can examine the metal work and make fun of the gouged up stock as well.

On a similar topic;
I’ve sanded the choke out of one barrel only, leaving the full choke barrel not changed, in more than one or two doubles, making sort of a “poor man’s cape gun”.
I got the idea after seeing a high grade Parker shotgun that obviously was ordered cylinder and full from the factory, around circa 1900.
Most very plain grade doubles, such as I usually end up with are (or were, before all this screw in choke nonsense) made with right barrel modified and left barrel full.
Sanding out the modified one until it is “true cylinder” tends to improve the slug accuracy and causes no measurable loss of game birds hit with #4, 5, 6, etc. shot, in my experiences.
I made one of these the first time when I was a teenager in California.

I carried it with a slug in the cylinder barrel and birdshot in the full choke barrel, while walking the heavily wooded banks of the Feather River.
There were ducks, deer, pheasant, gray squirrel, rabbit and quail, in season simultaneously (early 1970’s).
I never got a shot at a deer with it, as all I ever jumped occasionally were does.
But, I did shoot members of all the other species mentioned above with that gun.
It too was just a cheap, Spanish plain grade one
(Zabala of Eibar I think), similar to the one I have now but, lighter weight, 2 & 3/4 inch chambered gun.
Blah, blah, blah, out.

See you soon,
Paul.

 

[HWL]

Only problem for me is that the 12ga 2 3/4 inch is the "African" standard shot shell size.

Finding a 3 1/2 inch in the old Brno side lock is not possible.

Thanks for this great thread!!!

Before CZ discontinued production of this shotgun in the 1990s., they made a last run in 12ga 3"
Like Red Leg, a poor lieutenant, I bought mine at Waffen Frankonia Würzburg....


HWL

 

[1dirthawker]

@velodog,

hey paul, look forward to the visit and seeing your "poor mans double". might be a fun project after my 9.3 improved project. see you tomorrow.

 

[Red Leg]

Thanks for this great thread!!!

Before CZ discontinued production of this shotgun in the 1990s., they made a last run in 12ga 3"
Like Red Leg, a poor lieutenant, I bought mine at Waffen Frankonia Würzburg....


HWL

What a great store! Still have a hat from then and there. Doesn't get worn any longer but has a special place in the game room. Zum Wohl!!!

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

Very good post and well written.
Thanks for sharing.

 

[barryk]

Great post...thank you!

 

[Odinsraven]

thanks for the post a sleepless night of ideas you have created !

 

[AZDAVE]

thanks for the post a sleepless night of ideas you have created !

Boy can I relate to how many nights sleep that were shortened by the good idea fairy that AH post have caused

 

[IvW]

Just do it!!!

 

[Longwalker]

I have a Brno ZP47 12 ga that is identical to the one featured in this excellent post. It does inspire some dreams! Now I just have to find a gunsmith who can machine a set of sights to fit the rib...

 

[Red Leg]

Only problem for me is that the 12ga 2 3/4 inch is the "African" standard shot shell size.

Finding a 3 1/2 inch in the old Brno side lock is not possible.

The hulls I use are super strong(much thicker than Magtech, they are more than long enough for the task and there is more than enough space to up the charge if needed.

I think the 12ga 3 1/2 inch will only give an advantage when using shot for bird hunting as you can fit more shot in the shell.

I have not found the 12ga 2 3/4 wanting for the purpose.

The 3 1/2 shell is an abomination. The recoil makes a .375 seem like a pussycat. Follow-up shots are just grim. They would turn a light double into junk in a few rounds while you were mangling your shoulder and working on your flinch.

 

[sierraone]

The 3 1/2 shell is an abomination. The recoil makes a .375 seem like a pussycat. Follow-up shots are just grim. They would turn a light double into junk in a few rounds while you were mangling your shoulder and working on your flinch.

Joe, are these 3 1/2 inch shells the same as modern duck gun rounds, or are they something entirely different?

 

[Red Leg]

Joe, are these 3 1/2 inch shells the same as modern duck gun rounds, or are they something entirely different?

Yes. I truly hate them. A 2 3/4 or 3-inch 1.25 -1.3 ounce HEVI-shot or other Tungsten matrix load will be lethal on any duck or goose that has ever flown out to any reasonable range - and do it as well as lead ever did. So, not only are they unnecessary, the 3.5-inch loads have a well earned reputation for wounding game. Too many folks think they shoot farther - they don't - velocity is actually typically a little less - but they try with predictable results. They also recoil badly in most modern lightweight plastic semi-autos and pumps (especially pumps) and typically develop poor elongated patterns - very poor ones. All that creates frustration, which causes even worse shooting. As I say, I hate them. Another of these creations designed to bag shooter sales rather than game.

 

[Timbo]

Wow! Thanks for sharing your experiences! It brought back memories of my Dad's hunting of big stuff with his shotgun - which I'd like to note here.

My Dad was a product of "The Raj" and he told me he used a Winchester Model 12 pump-action 12g shotgun, loaded alternately with "LG" (5-pellets) and ball (slugs), for his tiger hunting. Sometimes for tiger hunting my Dad also had a torch clamped to the barrel which coincided with the point of aim.

As a kid I was fortunate he'd sometimes allow me to use this shotgun for duck hunting. Unfortunately though, this piece of history with 5 tigers to it's credit, was destroyed by the police in the aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre. This was the only time I ever saw tears in my Dad's eyes.

However, he did tell me about his favourite method of shooting tigers, which was quite simple but effective. He would put a kitchen table under a tree with a kid (young goat!) chained on top. From the tree above he'd hang a hurricane lamp inside a brown paper cage. He would then mount a chair in a suitable tree nearby and wait.

At night, the diffuse light from the hurricane lamp would be enough illumination to shoot by, while the kid - now cold and missing it's nanny - would bleat like hell all night attracting said tiger. On arrival the tiger's presence and location would be denoted by the kid's immediate silence, and direction of stare.

Then, as the tiger approached and put its' front paws on the table and began to raise itself up, my Dad would then shoot him.

Worked every time, he said: and for a touch of class - my parents went tiger hunting for their honeymoon!

 

[Wheels]

Wow! Thanks for sharing your experiences! It brought back memories of my Dad's hunting of big stuff with his shotgun - which I'd like to note here.

My Dad was a product of "The Raj" and he told me he used a Winchester Model 12 pump-action 12g shotgun, loaded alternately with "LG" (5-pellets) and ball (slugs), for his tiger hunting. Sometimes for tiger hunting my Dad also had a torch clamped to the barrel which coincided with the point of aim.

As a kid I was fortunate he'd sometimes allow me to use this shotgun for duck hunting. Unfortunately though, this piece of history with 5 tigers to it's credit, was destroyed by the police in the aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre. This was the only time I ever saw tears in my Dad's eyes.

However, he did tell me about his favourite method of shooting tigers, which was quite simple but effective. He would put a kitchen table under a tree with a kid (young goat!) chained on top. From the tree above he'd hang a hurricane lamp inside a brown paper cage. He would then mount a chair in a suitable tree nearby and wait.

At night, the diffuse light from the hurricane lamp would be enough illumination to shoot by, while the kid - now cold and missing it's nanny - would bleat like hell all night attracting said tiger. On arrival the tiger's presence and location would be denoted by the kid's immediate silence, and direction of stare.

Then, as the tiger approached and put its' front paws on the table and began to raise itself up, my Dad would then shoot him.

Worked every time, he said: and for a touch of class - my parents went tiger hunting for their honeymoon!

Very interesting story from a bygone era. Appreciate your sharing it with us.

To bad about your father's M12. They were an old workhorse.

If you have other stories like this, please open a thread. I know some of us would find it extremely interesting.

 

[Timbo]

Very interesting story from a bygone era. Appreciate your sharing it with us.

To bad about your father's M12. They were an old workhorse.

If you have other stories like this, please open a thread. I know some of us would find it extremely interesting.

Ok I will. I'll even try to get copies of photos of my Dad with his 2 pet leopards!

 

[HWL]

Since IvW started this thread, I want,.... I need,....I badly need a Poor Man's Double Rifle!

Because I did not wanted to slaughter a shotgun I already have, I looked for an appropriate candidate.

Today I won an auction….. 420 € I have to pay….. a lot of money for an old czech shotgun.

The gun slept untouched since the 1990's in a gunstore.

It does not have the beautiful english stock of IvW "Poor Man's Double Rifle", but anyways…

I hope, it can be basis for my own version…

Thanks to IvW for the inspiration you gave...


HWL