Politics

Midterms outcome dont bother you..?
what does that have to do with the comment Foxi made or my response to him?

Red Herring argument on your part...

you cant defend the position made.. so you try to create a diversion...


that said.. the midterms were already being discussed here ad nauseum MONTHS before this war started... I seriously doubt the war will have a whole lot of impact.. Americans are far more divided on social issues.. those will be the drivers that people look at in November.. theres a reason the Democrats continue to harp on ICE, and other domestic issues... because thats the only place they appear to be getting any traction... global issues are something most average Joes could care less about (even our liberals could care less about liberal european crying)..

If you think differently, you probably should pull your head out of the sand and try to read some actual facts and data about the US, its politics, and its people rather than continuing to rely on your emotions and whatever liberal drivel you clearly read currently..
 
I think it would be good if Europe would finally wake up, ie the US formally withdrawing from Nato...

Regarding the direct funding of Nato the US and Germany both pays 15,8 percent each, other countries pays less, apparently this is determined by the Gross national income of each member nation but somehow capped so that Germany pays an equal share as the US even though the US GNI is much higher then Germanys? https://www.nato.int/en/what-we-do/introduction-to-nato/funding-nato

Aside from that each member pays for its own military forces, which make up the vast majority of NATO’s total resources. And here the US share is obviously the biggest, thats simply because your military budget is so much higher then anybody elses.

Regarding the 80 000 service members that the US has in Europe, If I understand it correctly the
U.S. presence in Europe is not made up solely of combat soldiers. The United States counts all military‑related personnel in its totals.

According to U.S. Army Europe and Africa (2024), the footprint includes:
  • 38,500 military personnel (including about 14,000 rotational troops)
  • 33,500 civilian employees (Department of the Army Civilians)
  • 68,700 family members
  • 8,700 local national employees
This means the American presence in Europe is a mixed ecosystem of uniformed troops, civilian specialists, technicians, administrative staff, support personnel, and their families — not just combat forces.

So for Europe to make up for this we would then need to add 38,500 more military personal if those numbers are correct? I dont think that would be impossible to do...considering that the standing forces of the european Nato members are about 1,9 million soldiers:
  • Turkey: 481,000
  • Poland: 216,000
  • France: 205,000
  • Germany: 186,000
  • Italy: 171,000
  • United Kingdom: 138,000
  • Spain: 117,000
  • Greece: 111,000
  • Romania: 67,000
  • Netherlands: 42,000
  • Finland: 31,000
  • Czech Republic: 30,000
  • Portugal: 28,000
  • Sweden: 15,000
Obviously we would also need to make up for the US contribution in Strategic airlift, Intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance. Probably also logistics and perhaps also naval power? The question is if Nato without the US would need a true global blue water navy? Assuming the mission is to protect against Russia and not against for example China I mean...the European navies (UK, France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Norway, Sweden, etc.) should be more than capable of dominating the Baltic, North Sea, Mediterranean, and Black Sea against the russians.

I think this can be done but of course it will take time and the sooner that Trump formally declares that the US will leave Nato we can start build it up for real...unfortunately I think that some european politicians would like to fool themselves into believing that they can wait for Trumps tenure to end and hope that someone more Nato friendly to be elected next.

In addition to what you mention, Europe need a better nuclear umbrella to deter Russia..
 
In addition to what you mention, Europe need a better nuclear umbrella to deter Russia..

this might be the first thing youve posted that we have agreed on in a long time...

the question is...

how is Europe going to pay for it? what social welfare programs is it going to cut? what immigration policy is it going to change? or.. will it just tax its people at even higher rates to cover the costs?
 
think that depends on your definition of conservatism vs liberalism… the definitions have changed dramatically since the 1800's... for the most part ALL Americans were notably more conservative in the 1800's than in the 1900's and 2000's.. the question was how conservative... what was "liberal" then would actually be somewhere between centrist and slightly right leaning now..
JFK, the legendary hero of Democrats would not make it out of the primaries today.
 
I think it would be good if Europe would finally wake up, ie the US formally withdrawing from Nato...

Regarding the direct funding of Nato the US and Germany both pays 15,8 percent each, other countries pays less, apparently this is determined by the Gross national income of each member nation but somehow capped so that Germany pays an equal share as the US even though the US GNI is much higher then Germanys? https://www.nato.int/en/what-we-do/introduction-to-nato/funding-nato

Aside from that each member pays for its own military forces, which make up the vast majority of NATO’s total resources. And here the US share is obviously the biggest, thats simply because your military budget is so much higher then anybody elses.

Regarding the 80 000 service members that the US has in Europe, If I understand it correctly the
U.S. presence in Europe is not made up solely of combat soldiers. The United States counts all military‑related personnel in its totals.

According to U.S. Army Europe and Africa (2024), the footprint includes:
  • 38,500 military personnel (including about 14,000 rotational troops)
  • 33,500 civilian employees (Department of the Army Civilians)
  • 68,700 family members
  • 8,700 local national employees
This means the American presence in Europe is a mixed ecosystem of uniformed troops, civilian specialists, technicians, administrative staff, support personnel, and their families — not just combat forces.

So for Europe to make up for this we would then need to add 38,500 more military personal if those numbers are correct? I dont think that would be impossible to do...considering that the standing forces of the european Nato members are about 1,9 million soldiers:
  • Turkey: 481,000
  • Poland: 216,000
  • France: 205,000
  • Germany: 186,000
  • Italy: 171,000
  • United Kingdom: 138,000
  • Spain: 117,000
  • Greece: 111,000
  • Romania: 67,000
  • Netherlands: 42,000
  • Finland: 31,000
  • Czech Republic: 30,000
  • Portugal: 28,000
  • Sweden: 15,000
Obviously we would also need to make up for the US contribution in Strategic airlift, Intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance. Probably also logistics and perhaps also naval power? The question is if Nato without the US would need a true global blue water navy? Assuming the mission is to protect against Russia and not against for example China I mean...the European navies (UK, France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Norway, Sweden, etc.) should be more than capable of dominating the Baltic, North Sea, Mediterranean, and Black Sea against the russians.

I think this can be done but of course it will take time and the sooner that Trump formally declares that the US will leave Nato we can start build it up for real...unfortunately I think that some european politicians would like to fool themselves into believing that they can wait for Trumps tenure to end and hope that someone more Nato friendly to be elected next.

The thing you overlook is how much those 38,500 people contribute to Europes economy...

Between $30-$40B a year gets spent on the local economies around US military installations in Europe on everything from housing to construction on the bases to facilities maintenance to fuel to utilities, etc..etc..

So when those 38,500 troops and their families go home... where does Europe come up with an additional $40B to replace what just left their local economies?

Not to mention the tens if not hundreds of billions its going to need to spend on plussing up its on militaries?

and then as Pondoro I think very accurately points out.. it needs to improve its nuke arsenal.. that alone is going to be hundreds of billions between not just the R&D, manufacture and maintenance of the munitions but also the facilities required to deploy them...

Unless Europe is prepared to cut out HUGE swaths of social programs and other things and/or SUBSTANTIALLY raise taxes.. I dont see how Europe accomplishes this..
 
Last edited:
this might be the first thing youve posted that we have agreed on in a long time...

the question is...

how is Europe going to pay for it? what social welfare programs is it going to cut? what immigration policy is it going to change? or.. will it just tax its people at even higher rates to cover the costs?

There are ways to fund this...maybe taxation..maybe welfare cuts.

But as you say.. Trump will be gone in 2,5 years, perhaps USA will stay in NATO..

I doubt the congress will support a withdrawal..

BTW, the US currently invest $200 million in an airbase in southern Norway..
 
Lets see what happens shall we..?
I take that to mean that you have no more insight into the future than I have. How disappointing. I guess we will have to wait and see just what AMERICAN voters decide.
 
There are ways to fund this...maybe taxation..maybe welfare cuts.

But as you say.. Trump will be gone in 2,5 years, perhaps USA will stay in NATO..

I doubt the congress will support a withdrawal..

BTW, the US currently invest $200 million in an airbase in southern Norway..

Ive been saying that all along... Trump is gone in 2.5 years... and no matter who replaces him, things will absolutely change...

JD Vance may be an even greater isolationist than Trump.. but he isnt nearly as "rude" typically and certainly doesnt negotiate the same way..

Rubio and DeSantis (the other two most probable R candidates) are significantly more reserved and less erratic..

And if we end up with Newsome, Weimer, or Harris in the white house, we'll be 20% further down the road toward leftism than Biden took us...

And congress will absolutely not support a withdrawl.. Ive been saying that as well.. it takes a 2/3 majority vote.. and there arent nearly enough hard line right wing votes to get close to that in the senate...

but.. Trump can certainly make NATO pay a hefty price for 2.5 years in the meantime if he wants to.. he doesnt have to pull out of the alliance to create pain for the European members.. there are plenty of ways he can do that with or without congress's approval..

Regarding the $200M in Norway... Im well aware... the difference is.. if the US pulls out (it wont).. how is Norway going to fund its maintenance? You could potentially end up with a free facility.. but a free facility is valueless if its not maintained... and maintaining a $200M air base is not cheap or easy (I know.. I have worked in the defense industry for decades)..
 
There are ways to fund this...maybe taxation..maybe welfare cuts.

But as you say.. Trump will be gone in 2,5 years, perhaps USA will stay in NATO..

I doubt the congress will support a withdrawal..

BTW, the US currently invest $200 million in an airbase in southern Norway..
However you fund it, Europe better get on it quick!

Russia just sent a sanctioned tanker through the English channel with war ship escort and the UK is trying to act like their Navy isn't as soft as a piss soaked paper bag.......
eagles.jpg
 
However you fund it, Europe better get on it quick!

Russia just sent a sanctioned tanker through the English channel with war ship escort and the UK is trying to act like their Navy isn't as soft as a piss soaked paper bag.......
View attachment 758499

What do you expect the Royal Navy do..start World War 3..?
 
What do you expect the Royal Navy do..start World War 3..?
Seems like their making a half assed attempt at just that......

I wonder how many months it will take them to get a ship sea worthy?

They literally have more admirals than ships!

It's almost like they have relied on another nation to provide their world security for decades......
 
Ive been saying that all along... Trump is gone in 2.5 years... and no matter who replaces him, things will absolutely change...

JD Vance may be an even greater isolationist than Trump.. but he isnt nearly as "rude" typically and certainly doesnt negotiate the same way..

Rubio and DeSantis (the other two most probable R candidates) are significantly more reserved and less erratic..

And if we end up with Newsome, Weimer, or Harris in the white house, we'll be 20% further down the road toward leftism than Biden took us...

And congress will absolutely not support a withdrawl.. Ive been saying that as well.. it takes a 2/3 majority vote.. and there arent nearly enough hard line right wing votes to get close to that in the senate...

but.. Trump can certainly make NATO pay a hefty price for 2.5 years in the meantime if he wants to.. he doesnt have to pull out of the alliance to create pain for the European members.. there are plenty of ways he can do that with or without congress's approval..

Regarding the $200M in Norway... Im well aware... the difference is.. if the US pulls out (it wont).. how is Norway going to fund its maintenance? You could potentially end up with a free facility.. but a free facility is valueless if its not maintained... and maintaining a $200M air base is not cheap or easy (I know.. I have worked in the defense industry for decades)..

You seem to forget that Sweden and Finland joined NATO.. If the US leave it will probably end up being used by Britain, Sweden and Norway to fly sortees in and around the Baltic Sea to deter Russia..Canada also express a will to close more in on Europe..

Cost will be shared within NATO.
 
They literally have more admirals than ships!

I try to learn at least one new thing every day...

this was my one thing for 4/9/2026 lol.. thanks dewayne!

the UK has 40 naval flag officers right now... and only 23 "frontline" warships..

they actually have a total of 63 ships in their navy.. but 40 of them are support vessels like survey ships and auxiliary vessels..

by contrast the USN has about 260 flag officers..

but also has 292 warships... and a total of 465 ships if you count all of the support vessels..
 
Most likely even with Trump. That being said, we should move the bases in Spain to Portugal.

Trump and Rubio will probably do something like that.. Denying acces the US to bases and airspace was an idiotic move..
 
You seem to forget that Sweden and Finland joined NATO.. If the US leave it will probably end up being used by Britain, Sweden and Norway to fly sortees in and around the Baltic Sea to deter Russia..Canada also express a will to close more in on Europe..

Cost will be shared within NATO.
didnt forget that at all...

and it doesnt change the fact that the costs will still be there to be covered..

along with the loss in the European economy from the withdrawl of troops..

the increased costs of NATO's European countries needing to plus up its militaries..

the increased costs of bolstering Europes nuclear programs..

etc etc etc

youre already screaming about the increased cost of fuel due to the straits of hormuz..

where are you going to come up with the money to pay for the jet fuel at Rygge?
 
didnt forget that at all...

and it doesnt change the fact that the costs will still be there to be covered..

along with the loss in the European economy from the withdrawl of troops..

the increased costs of NATO's European countries needing to plus up its militaries..

the increased costs of bolstering Europes nuclear programs..

etc etc etc

youre already screaming about the increased cost of fuel due to the straits of hormuz..

where are you going to come up with the money to pay for the jet fuel at Rygge?
You know perfectly well that we have the money for fuel..
 

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