Politics

Some people get upset when Biden says we will support Ukraine as long as it takes. Would you be as upset if a Republican president said the same? Or are you as upset when Speaker McCarthy says the same? Hating Biden is not a reason to abandon Ukraine.

What else should Biden say? Only a few months? Or a year? Or until some arbitrary date on the calendar so the Russians know how long they should hold out before Ukraine runs out of support and armaments?

Biden saying publicly that we will support Ukraine as long as it takes is a clear signal to the Russians that they should pull out or at least work towards a peaceful resolution. This is obvious to most of us.
 

Ukraine should have a vote in how long it takes? Sure, OK, but on whose nickel?
Do they have the right to dictate how long the American taxpayer is willing to donate to their cause?
Tell me the end game, where does this wind up and when and at what cost to the American taxpayer?

I was out of town for a couple of days, but in just the time I was gone, I see news reports today even from the lamestream media that its not going well for Ukraine, and is basically a stalemate.
How long do you think the American taxpayer should be willing to let Zelensky determine how long we should continue to support this effort?

And who said anything about supporting Russia?
With respect to Russian ambitions in Ukraine we are either supporting those goals by doing nothing or attempting to help Ukraine to thwart them - a pretty simple bit of calculus from my perspective. It frustrates me that so many on my side of the political divide can't seem to understand that. To put it plainly, as a Reagan conservative, it is beyond my comprehension anyone with a modicum of understanding of European history would find supporting an expansionist Russia in our national interests - particularly with an emerging Chinese super power eager to exploit a militant Russia threatening Western Europe.

The Ukrainian people have the absolute right to determine the length and form of their resistance - whether with the inadequate support of the Biden administration or in spite of the potential lack of support and the blind ignorance of a Trump administration or with the aggressive support of a Haley presidency.

Trump offered what I believe was the most ignorant foreign policy comment that I have heard in my lifetime at his rally on the 18th.

"I will ask Europe to reimburse us for the cost of rebuilding the stockpiles sent to Ukraine, which they should be doing now, but Joe Biden is too weak, too disrespected."

I am not sure what is worse: That he actually thinks that would be a policy in our country's national interests, or that his followers believe that would be a reasonable policy to attempt to press upon our NATO partners - an alliance that exists only because we created it to help protect our critical national interests.

As I have said numerous times, this war will end in a negotiated settlement when one side determines it is no longer worth the cost. It is pennies on the dollar to insure those negotiations will be in Ukraine's favor.
 
With respect to Russian ambitions in Ukraine we are either supporting those goals by doing nothing or attempting to help Ukraine to thwart them - a pretty simple bit of calculus from my perspective. It frustrates me that so many on my side of the political divide can't seem to understand that. To put it plainly, as a Reagan conservative, it is beyond my comprehension anyone with a modicum of understanding of European history would find supporting an expansionist Russia in our national interests - particularly with an emerging Chinese super power eager to exploit a militant Russia threatening Western Europe.

The Ukrainian people have the absolute right to determine the length and form of their resistance - whether with the inadequate support of the Biden administration or in spite of the potential lack of support and the blind ignorance of a Trump administration or with the aggressive support of a Haley presidency.

Trump offered what I believe was the most ignorant foreign policy comment that I have heard in my lifetime at his rally on the 18th.

"I will ask Europe to reimburse us for the cost of rebuilding the stockpiles sent to Ukraine, which they should be doing now, but Joe Biden is too weak, too disrespected."

I am not sure what is worse: That he actually thinks that would be a policy in our country's national interests, or that his followers believe that would be a reasonable policy to attempt to press upon our NATO partners - an alliance that exists only because we created it to help protect our critical national interests.

As I have said numerous times, this war will end in a negotiated settlement when one side determines it is no longer worth the cost. It is pennies on the dollar to insure those negotiations will be in Ukraine's favor.
But in the meantime, while waiting to get these guys to the table, how much is too much? How long is too long? Questions no one seems to want to answer.
Here is Rand Paul
 
Some people get upset when Biden says we will support Ukraine as long as it takes. Would you be as upset if a Republican president said the same? Or are you as upset when Speaker McCarthy says the same? Hating Biden is not a reason to abandon Ukraine.

What else should Biden say? Only a few months? Or a year? Or until some arbitrary date on the calendar so the Russians know how long they should hold out before Ukraine runs out of support and armaments?

Biden saying publicly that we will support Ukraine as long as it takes is a clear signal to the Russians that they should pull out or at least work towards a peaceful resolution. This is obvious to most of us.
If you are asking me, no, I would feel the same regardless who was president. I will ask you then. How long is too long?
How much of YOUR money is too much?
If Zelensky demanded a trillion bucks right now, up front, is that too much? If he says, I need a commitment of so many tanks, F16's, drones, etc etc, is that OK with you?
My point is the line must be drawn somewhere right, I think you would agree that there is a point where must day Enough!
You two countries get together and hammer out something both can live with. If that is possible and I am not sure that it is, then this could go on for years, it alreay has in fact.
Someone, not you mentioned earlier about the grain issue, and how that would hurt everyone. I would counter with two things.
Most of that UKE grain is/ was going to China, and isnt grain something we do here, and in Canada? In other words if the lack of grain from UKE is a problem for the US, someone is selling a bag of sand.
Here again, is Rand Paul
 
But in the meantime, while waiting to get these guys to the table, how much is too much? How long is too long? Questions no one seems to want to answer.
Here is Rand Paul
Rand Paul, who I actually respect on a lot of issues panders just as much as any other politician. We are not out of ammunition. I have no doubt our contingency stockpiles have been affected, but why don't we explore what that actually means. I assure you Rand Paul has no interest in providing that context.

The United States Army is tasked to be able to fight two theater wars simultaneously. That has been US strategy since Vietnam. It has been modified slightly over the years, but the two war strategy remains. US force structure, reserves, and munitions stockpiles are based on that planning assumption. These two wars would be considered mid to high intensity conflicts - not contingency operations in Bunga Bunga Land. Because the armed forces, and particularly the Army with respect to supporting Ukraine, must meet that planning requirement, they will resist some munitions support and demand replenishment of others. The Chief of Staff of the Army would be remiss in his duties if he did not.

However, from the administration's perspective, since it provides the planning guidance, it is reasonable to ask with whom we will wage these two major wars. Over the last sixty years, the worst case scenario would be Russia and China. Were Rand Paul being honest, he would acknowledge that the likelihood of Russia deciding to embark on a broader land war in Europe is laughable. I think he would also acknowledge it would take some serious legerdemain to come up with a scenario where the US Army could come to grips with China in a major land war.

Hence, it is perfectly reasonable to take stocks of some munitions below the two war planning levels.

With respect to money, every nickel we spend is deficit spending. We haven't yet gone broke because the economy has continued to grow over the last seven decades - even under democrats. I would suggest some perspective when evaluating our support for Ukraine.

As of May 31st, our bilateral support for this war equaled 0.33 of our annual GDP. That isn't even a round off number. Rand Paul won't mention that either.

That GDP perspective also provides a reasonable comparative value to the support provided by our allies. Trump is unlikely to understand it, but comparing Lithuanian support to Ukraine to the US in whole dollars is rather ridiculous. Surprisingly to many in my party I am sure, the US is well down the list.


As I noted, the US has committed .33% of GDP. In percentage value, Estonia has been the most generous in committing 1.26%. Poland is double the US at .68%. Even the Netherlands is .44. And yet our loud self-indulgent prospective nominee says Europe isn't doing enough and the US should be reimbursed.

It is important to remember that both sides spin.
 
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Well first of all let me express my immense sorrow that you have to continue to mansplain things to people who dont agree with your position. Insert sarcasm here.

But I surely dont wish to bore you any further with any opinions I might have, after all I am just a hick. boob that has an opinion that differs from yours and others as well.

In the words of that great western hero, Monte Walsh, when it comes to YOUR opinion on this matter,

"you just cant believe how little I care" (y)
Of course you are entitled to your opinion. It's the facts right that is important. I couldn't care less if you agree with my opinion or not. I just grew up in a world where if you can't trace an opinion back to a fact, then, well, it's an opinion without much validity. It might as well be broadcast on The View.

I can, and have, provided a historical example of how a shortage in a worldwide commodity (grain) led directly to a hit on US farmers. If you consider that "mansplaining", well...
 
The issue to me appears to be a lack of strategy by the US and allies. There are two ways of eliminating a Russian tank- one is to give armament to the Ukraines to shoot at the tank. the other is to prevent the Russians from purchasing the tank by cutting Russia's income. I hear no one talking about that means of ending the conflict.
 
Politics:

Now a WI resident. Suppressors are legal. CCW training for a permit requires only hunter safety and they turn around your permit in 30 days. This is what easy access to 2nd amendment rights looks like.

Compare to:

Illinois gun ownership is a privilege. You must apply for a FOID card which is unconstitutional. You may wait 6-12 months to receive it to use your 2A rights. Home made guns are illegal. I can't even keep track of their bans on magazines and AR-like platforms. CCW requires an in person class that runs you $500. NFA items are prohibited. No suppressors. No normal gun rifle seasons. They also have a lower State credit rating than Romania.

In conclusion:

Wisconsin is great. Illinois sucks. Change my mind.
Wisconsin sucks, just less than Illinois;)
 
200k Km is a shade over 124k miles, that's not a lot. Considering 15k miles/year is considered the norm, that only takes a little over 8 years for the average driver in the US (I was averaging closer to 20k miles/year prior to retiring and becoming a recluse). I would guess that would be uncommon in Europe. My understanding is battery life for the EVs is considered 10 years. Then you're faced with replacement battery cost that exceeds the vehicle value.
Tesla required enormous government support in the form of subsidies to get a very small market share of buyers; who also received a large subsidy from federal and state governments when they buy an EV. Without government support (read my tax dollars), EVs, solar production, wind farms, etc., all fail. Read what T. Boone Pickens had to say about the wind and solar power industry.
At some point, technology might be capable of making the EV a viable option for a larger number of people, but it isn't right now, or for the foreseeable future. Certainly not in the time frame CA and those pushing it want.
We don't have many cars older than 10 years.
A car with more than 200,000 km is hardly on the market. Actually unsaleable.

Will fail without state support :
Coal, steel and nuclear energy as well
 
The issue to me appears to be a lack of strategy by the US and allies. There are two ways of eliminating a Russian tank- one is to give armament to the Ukraines to shoot at the tank. the other is to prevent the Russians from purchasing the tank by cutting Russia's income. I hear no one talking about that means of ending the conflict.

That's a fairly tactical question rather than a strategic one. You're asking how we blow up shoddy tanks (I'm sure @Redleg has 53 ways our troops can do it with a banana peel).

The bigger question is how do we win the war? (Strategic)

I've been listening a fair bit to Peter Zeihan and he's as close to a fortune teller as they come, because he seems to predict every move in this chess match precisely while outlining the downstream impacts to various economies and manufacturing capabilities.

The punchline of his books, 3 hour interview on the JRE, and his website: Russia hasn't learned anything in the past 300 years. They throw bodies at the problem. They always throw bodies into trenches until they win or lose with minimal adaptation. Russia is going extinct, their population curve was such that Zeihan noted they had a five year window to do this war or forever be an Asian country with no European foothold. To defeat Russia, he states they have to lose 500,000 soldiers. At that point, they will no longer be capable of warfare. What's the tally right now? 150,000? 180,000?

Interestingly enough, Zeihan is very interested in population pyramids and points out that China is also going extinct as well which may lead to a "now or never" approach to land warfare at mass scale in the next decade.
 
That's a fairly tactical question rather than a strategic one. You're asking how we blow up shoddy tanks (I'm sure @Redleg has 53 ways our troops can do it with a banana peel).

The bigger question is how do we win the war? (Strategic)

I've been listening a fair bit to Peter Zeihan and he's as close to a fortune teller as they come, because he seems to predict every move in this chess match precisely while outlining the downstream impacts to various economies and manufacturing capabilities.

The punchline of his books, 3 hour interview on the JRE, and his website: Russia hasn't learned anything in the past 300 years. They throw bodies at the problem. They always throw bodies into trenches until they win or lose with minimal adaptation. Russia is going extinct, their population curve was such that Zeihan noted they had a five year window to do this war or forever be an Asian country with no European foothold. To defeat Russia, he states they have to lose 500,000 soldiers. At that point, they will no longer be capable of warfare. What's the tally right now? 150,000? 180,000?

Interestingly enough, Zeihan is very interested in population pyramids and points out that China is also going extinct as well which may lead to a "now or never" approach to land warfare at mass scale in the next decade.
I agree. Zeihan is one of the more thought provoking people of our generation.

When speaking of national power potential, he represents an interesting analytical philosophy which I think one could call mathematical determinism. For instance, when applied to the percentage of population available to be sacrificed in a military conflict, he essentially calculates what portion of the critical age brackets that are necessary to run an economy, maintain social order, etc. and the remainder are available for body bags. His analysis says Russia can afford to throw away half a million citizens.

I should note, this doesn't mean 500,000 dead Russians, but rather 500,000 casualties who can not return to combat. I think most credible analysts believe that figure of dead and gravely wounded is somewhere between 150-300 thousand right now - I personally think the number is around a quarter of a million.

There are other factors that can weigh into combat potential analysis. They would include the strategic position of both armies. He touches on the issue in the clip above. For instance, I have noted here several times that Ukraine has the advantage of "interior lines." This is a military term which means the curved nature of the front, with Ukraine holding the inside of the curve allows them to move reinforcements, supplies, mass for attacks, etc, far easier and quicker than the Russians who are on the outside of the curve. They can also do it by expending fewer logistics resources. A good historical example of the difficulties faced by the Russians is the Battle of Gettysburg where Federal Forces held interior lines along Cemetery Ridge allowing them to easily counter Longstreet's slow developing attacks over exterior lines on days two and three.

In modern ground warfare, driven by diesel fuel, exterior lines are a particularly difficult obstacle for the resupply of fuel and munitions. A T-72 tank has fuel capacity of 360 US gal (1200 liters). It burns that fuel at a rate of .9 gal per mile. Even when halted, the tank is usually idling because most systems will not work without engine power. Because of HIMARS missiles and their range, fuel must be trucked in tankers from railheads at least 50 miles from the front line. A Battalion Tactical Group burns approximately 10,000 gal a day - every day. As every Army major learns in staff college, the diesel requirement goes up dramatically as fuel necessary to move the tanker trucks themselves is added to the equation. The farther from the railhead the problem grows exponentially. Ask the Russians stuck in the convoy north or Kyiv early in the war.

Much of the southern portion of the front where Ukraine is staging its offensive operation is a very long way from rail heads in the Donetsk - hundreds of kilometers. As Zeihan so accurately points out, those tankers can not now seek that replenishment from the Crimea either.

The same logistics determinism affects ammunition, food and even potable water.

That then brings up the potential brittleness of the Russian Army which probably should be included in his mathematical analysis. Tired, hungry soldiers with limited ammunition and armor support will at best not fight with the same ferocity as better equipped and trained adversaries. At worst, the whole house of cards could come tumbling down as it did in 1917 - and do so before the 500k figure is reached.

As Napoleon astutely noticed, "In war the moral is to the physical as three to one." Russia is clearly degenerating in both. The question is whether or not the West has the will to stay the course. Clearly the Ukrainian people and armed forces have no doubts. I wish more of our politicians were worthy of them,
 
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We don't have many cars older than 10 years.
A car with more than 200,000 km is hardly on the market. Actually unsaleable.

Will fail without state support :
Coal, steel and nuclear energy as well
That’s not the case in the USA.
 
I agree. Zeihan is one of the more thought provoking people of our generation.

When speaking of national power potential, he represents an interesting analytical philosophy which I think one could call mathematical determinism. For instance, when applied to the percentage of population available to be sacrificed in a military conflict, he essentially calculates what portion of the critical age brackets that are necessary to run an economy, maintain social order, etc. and the remainder are available for body bags. His analysis says Russia can afford to throw away half a million citizens.

I should note, this doesn't mean 500,000 dead Russians, but rather 500,000 casualties who can not return to combat. I think most credible analysts believe that figure of dead and gravely wounded is somewhere between 150-300 thousand right now - I personally think the number is around a quarter of a million.

There are other factors that can weigh into combat potential analysis. They would include the strategic position of both armies. He touches on the issue in the clip above. For instance, I have noted here several times that Ukraine has the advantage of "interior lines." This is a military term which means the curved nature of the front, with Ukraine holding the inside of the curve allows them to move reinforcements, supplies, mass for attacks, etc, for easier and quicker than the Russians who are on the outside of the curve. They can also do it by expending fewer logistics resources. A good historical example of the difficulties faced by the Russians is the Battle of Gettysburg where Federal Forces held interior lines along Cemetery Ridge allowing them to easily counter Longstreet's slow developing attacks over exterior lines on days two and three.

In modern ground warfare, driven by diesel fuel, exterior lines are a particularly difficult obstacle for the resupply of fuel and munitions. A T-72 tank has fuel capacity of 360 US gal (1200 liters). It burns that fuel at a rate of .9 gal per mile. Even when halted, the tank is usually idling because most systems will not work without engine power. Because of HIMARS missiles and their range, fuel must be trucked in tankers from railheads at least 50 miles from the front line. A Battalion Tactical Group burns approximately 10,000 gal a day - every day. As every Army major learns in staff college, the diesel requirement goes up dramatically as fuel necessary to move the tanker trucks themselves is added to the equation. The farther from the railhead the problem grows exponentially.

Much of the southern portion of the front where Ukraine is staging its offensive operation is a very long way from rail heads in the Donetsk - hundreds of kilometers. As Zeihan so accurately points out, those tankers can not now seek that replenishment from the Crimea either.

The same logistics determinism affects ammunition, food and even potable water.

That then brings up the potential brittleness of the Russian Army which probably should be included in mathematical analysis. Tired, hungry soldiers with limited ammunition and armor support will at best not fight with the same ferocity as better equipped and trained adversaries. At worst, the whole house of cards could come tumbling down as it did in 1917 - and do so before the 500k figure is reached.

As Napoleon astutely noticed, "In war the moral is to the physical as three to one." Russia is clearly degenerating in both. The question is whether or not the West has the will to stay the course. Clearly the Ukrainian people and armed forces have no doubts. I wish more of our politicians were worthy of them,
And it seems to me that those long supply lines are prime targets for missiles and rockets. Convoys make good targets.
 
What's the tally right now? 150,000? 180,000?
As per extensive BBC research report, made in cooperation with independent organization zone media, based on satellite imagery of newly built grave yards, court records on inheritance proceedings, insurance records etc. the number is around 25.000 on Russian side. (accounted by name)


Quote
We identified more than 25,000 named individuals - people we know to have died - setting a bare minimum for Russia's total losses. Some of them are pictured here.
Unqoute

200.000 russian losses is Ukranian estimate, that includes wounded.
If you add ratio 1-3, as someone mentioned for wounded, then BBCs total casualties are 75.000, as a minimum.
I dont think they are hiding their dead (like in mass graves or similar), they just dont report to media.

Also, I dont think that "throwing bodies to the problem" is essential strategy, but the war is brutal, and bloody, and I hope for soon ending of hostilities.
It is also hi tech war (as none before), with drones, long range artillery, missiles, smart bombs, and electronic warfare and it is a war of attrition, with seemingly endless supply of ammo (artillery), waiting that somebody runs out of 155 ammo first.
 
That's a fairly tactical question rather than a strategic one. You're asking how we blow up shoddy tanks (I'm sure @Redleg has 53 ways our troops can do it with a banana peel).

The bigger question is how do we win the war? (Strategic)

I've been listening a fair bit to Peter Zeihan and he's as close to a fortune teller as they come, because he seems to predict every move in this chess match precisely while outlining the downstream impacts to various economies and manufacturing capabilities.

The punchline of his books, 3 hour interview on the JRE, and his website: Russia hasn't learned anything in the past 300 years. They throw bodies at the problem. They always throw bodies into trenches until they win or lose with minimal adaptation. Russia is going extinct, their population curve was such that Zeihan noted they had a five year window to do this war or forever be an Asian country with no European foothold. To defeat Russia, he states they have to lose 500,000 soldiers. At that point, they will no longer be capable of warfare. What's the tally right now? 150,000? 180,000?

Interestingly enough, Zeihan is very interested in population pyramids and points out that China is also going extinct as well which may lead to a "now or never" approach to land warfare at mass scale in the next decade.

This is very interesting. Good economists rarely get it wrong, poor economists rarely get it right. Relative birth rates have predicted the current immigration crisis in Europe. This has had major religious, political and economic impacts. I believe that we are at a tipping point, and unfortunately are lacking the global leadership that is necessary to chart a course to success. I think often of Reagan, Thatcher and others who led so effectively through the conclusion of the Cold War. We could do with a little of that capability today. Zelenskyy is one of the few bright spots. Canada had one in Harper, but somehow determined that Trudeau was a better answer. The 2024 elections are becoming more critical on an almost daily basis.
 
As per extensive BBC research report, made in cooperation with independent organization zone media, based on satellite imagery of newly built grave yards, court records on inheritance proceedings, insurance records etc. the number is around 25.000 on Russian side. (accounted by name)


Quote
We identified more than 25,000 named individuals - people we know to have died - setting a bare minimum for Russia's total losses. Some of them are pictured here.
Unqoute

200.000 russian losses is Ukranian estimate, that includes wounded.
If you add ratio 1-3, as someone mentioned for wounded, then BBCs total casualties are 75.000, as a minimum.
I dont think they are hiding their dead (like in mass graves or similar), they just dont report to media.

Also, I dont think that "throwing bodies to the problem" is essential strategy, but the war is brutal, and bloody, and I hope for soon ending of hostilities.
It is also hi tech war (as none before), with drones, long range artillery, missiles, smart bombs, and electronic warfare and it is a war of attrition, with seemingly endless supply of ammo (artillery), waiting that somebody runs out of 155 ammo first.

I think we have a pretty good hint of overall casualty rates when the Wagner group made known its losses following the aborted coup. It is impossible to know, but the true, and highly classified numbers Russia is listing as MIA for its army would informative.
 
Of course you are entitled to your opinion. It's the facts right that is important. I couldn't care less if you agree with my opinion or not. I just grew up in a world where if you can't trace an opinion back to a fact, then, well, it's an opinion without much validity. It might as well be broadcast on The View.

I can, and have, provided a historical example of how a shortage in a worldwide commodity (grain) led directly to a hit on US farmers. If you consider that "mansplaining", well...
Not so much what you said but the way you said it, which was very much irritated mansplaining. The very nerve that someone might not just lap up like a puppy dog what your are selling.
Otherwise refer to my last sentence from previous post.
 
That's a fairly tactical question rather than a strategic one.
There appears to be some confusion on the definition of strategic and tactical. A review of how to prevent Russia from being able to afford the war would generally fall under the definition of strategy.
 

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