Norma PH solids for Buffalo

[IvW]

Oh my.....hunt buffalo quite often? Seems the lever guys get quite worked up about some things....

Solids are not needed for buffalo by a visiting hunter simple as that .

 

[IvW]

You where lucky....all the trees you wounded could have been other buffalo......

 

[Red Leg]

Thank you for letting us know we have been “told.” Just love being lectured to.

80% solids?

With respect to buffalo, I think your advice would have been right up until about 1984 when the A Frame first hit the market. It took until about 20 years ago for most PH ‘s to come to that conclusion as well.

The A-Frame hits hard, drives deep, and kills. It also posses far less of a risk for a high velocity pass through of a target animal to hit another. I have had equally good performance with the TSX family.

With respect to PG, I find a solid most useful on animals like the tiny ten. A solid is a superb blue duiker killer.

 

[grand veneur]

I'm am going to hunt Cape Buffalo in 3 weeks. I have a 416 Remington and 400 grain Swift A frames.
But in a recent conversation with my PH,he indicated that I needed to bring Solids for follow up shots.

The only thing I can find is 400 grain Norma PH ammo.

Does anyone have experience with Norma PH solids on dangerous game?

I also get involved in the discussion because, among other things, I also shot few buffalos with FMJ bullets, at different times, with different cartridges and not just in the past.

You can certainly shot a buffalo with FMJ bullets or Solids, and if nothing else is available it is still better than to use unsuitable soft point bullets. That there is a danger to other animals by shooting trough exists, but also occurs with other bullets, depending on the bullets and the cartridges used. On the other side, also depending on the cartridge, some FMJ bullets or Solids remain in the body of the game.

It is true that with the modern thick walled bullets available today, you can refrain from using FMJ bullets or Solids, although as some have noted, the penetration of this bullets inside very hard tissue such as bone, for example, is not so certain.

The mode nowadays is the A-frame bullet from Swift for hunting buffalos, with another trend going towards the TSX bullet from Barnes. The older PH will continue to swear by FMJ bullets or Solids, although they are not wrong either.

In summary, if you have nothing else and your PH agree to that, use your ammo for buffalo hunting. It is not a fault. Being careful not to injure any other animals is always the rule in all cases, when using FMJ bullets or other bullets.

 

[michael458]

Oh my.....hunt buffalo quite often?

Actually I retired a few years ago, I just shoot now.

Seems the lever guys get quite worked up about some things....

You are a funny guy IvW, sure you are not a comedian?....... I have only shot two buffalo with lever guns, most of what I have done was with bolt guns. From .416 to .500... true .500 caliber, not .510....... I like lever guns, but would not consider myself a "Lever Guy"........... Bolt guy, oh yes, and if it does not say Winchester on it, well I don't have much use for it.

all the trees you wounded could have been other buffalo......

I do tend to shoot a lot of trees in my day..... even shot through one in Alaska when shooting a moose. I did not even need glasses back then.

In all the years of shooting in the field, buffalo, elephant, hippo, and many hundreds of thin skinned critters, and yes, many hundreds of solids shot in the field, I have never once shot another animal behind my shot? Odd would you think? I wanted to a few times, Two for One, we used to do that when shooting prairie dogs, big fun........ but for some reason I always waited until I had a clear shot, herd or no herd, sometimes you just have to be patient. Patience, and knowing what your bullet can and cannot do is far better than relying and hoping that your soft won't exit broadside. Fact is, I like exits, I like two holes for one shot........ I shot several buffalo with 450 and 500 gr .458 Swifts, from 458 Winchester, 458 Lott, 458 B&M, and love them, great bullet, but never had one exit broadside buffalo. Shot buffalo with 500 gr Woodlieghs too, 458 Lott and 458 B&M, no exits. I suppose if you don't trust your client or yourself, then recommending those type of expanding premiums might be a good idea. So I really can't fault that too much, considering inexperienced shooters. I am talking shooting, not hunting...... When I first started hunting, I was astounded at others that just did not put in the time and effort that I thought was needed. I did learn finally that was the rule, and not the exception.

Here we are used to shooting somewhere between 8000-10000 rounds of big bore each year, or at least up until a few years ago. There was a lot of research done here with various big bore cartridges that were developed, bullet designs that had to be tested, both in the lab, on the range, and then to the field. Even pressure data was taken on most big bore cartridges from .416 right on up to .620 caliber and some extensive double rifle study. No, I am not a double rifle guy either, but have done work and research with many calibers and many types of double rifles, even doing barrel strains with different bullets to determine what monolithic bullets are safe for double rifles. Shooting here is common, in fact I just came off the range, and will be headed back on the range in a few minutes.......

OK times up, gotta go

 

[grand veneur]

Since we don't all just hunt with the cartridge 375 H&H Magnum, it does not matter from a certain caliber class whether one use SP or FMJ bullets. The diameter of the bullet compensates for some.

 

[TOBY458]

@Aussie_Hunter , apologies honestly, but your statement seems to be the common denominator for some of the folks on this thread...... so I am using it ..............

I absolutely disagree with the statement with EXTREME PREJUDICE.........

There are those that declare that solids are just no longer required in modern buffalo hunting with the extreme premium expanding bullets we have today......... I do not accept that opinion, and figure that is an opinion of someone with little experience in the field, and more experience reading a magazine. In fact, I am of the complete opposite opinion and believe the SOLID to be the very most important component of any hunt for Dangerous game, thin or thick skinned...... PERIOD.

Things go wrong in the field. Things that might be out of your control. That properly designed solid, in this case the 450 #13 CEB Safari Solid, just might get you out of a pickle and save the day.

Even with common practice, after that first shot is fired with your Trauma Inflicting bullet, Raptor, Swift, North Fork or what have you, you follow up with solids to pay the insurance. If your animal is still on his feet, more than likely he is not presenting the perfect shot on #2 or #3 or thereafter. It may be running through thick brush, your shot may and most likely will be the South End of a North Bound Freight train, and you will need extreme straight line penetration and bone busting ability to end the dance you just started.

And in the case of BUFFALO, South End of a North Bound Buff, there is NO PREMIUM that you can count on to go from the rear to the front........ Not even the mighty Raptor...... which will nearly double the penetration depth of most Premium expanding..........

Back many years ago I was working with an 18 inch 458 B&M, at the time I was shooting a 420 Raptor at 2250 fps and 450 Solids at 2200 fps....... At about 30 yards or so I shot a nice cow buffalo dead frontal heart shot. The animal turned and dropped, it did not go anywhere. I was determined to find that bullet. Back at the shed we spent a very long time looking and sifting through stomach contents, and finally found the bullet just as it exited the stomach. Meaning it passed through all the stomach contents and was found just beyond........... I was so amazed at this, I took a photo of what that bullet had to pass through........... There is NO PREMIUM SOFT POINT EXPANDING BULLET that will make it all the way through these stomach contents........ take a look............

View attachment 545385

Oh for sure, the Solids are the most important component in your success in the field...............

I have been backing up with Solids since 2005 on everything, regardless of Dangerous Game or just antelope or other species, for that Just in Case moment that everything is not as perfect as you hope for. And in many cases it saved the day......... And most days it made me feel far more confident that I could handle most any situation with Solids backing me up.

And yes, that goes for the PH's that will tell you you don't need solids as well...... Of course you don't, they are going to do any shooting for you that you can't handle, and if you don't have the proper tools to complete the mission, well that is on you. Don't worry about using solids then, let your PH take care of your problems.

My ammo load out for years has been around 80% Solids, and the rest Trauma inflicting bullets. If you want to take that perfect shot on the first round, then everything there after is NOT going to be a perfect shot, you are going to need that deep diving, deep penetrating solid, because the soft, is not going to get you where you need to be......

As stated, in the field things don't always go perfectly........ I shot a buffalo once with a 500 B&M, shooting 410 Raptors at 2500 fps, followed up by 450 gr Solids at 2450 fps....... I shot the buffalo quartering to me on point of the left shoulder, severe trauma, it turned to the left and I hammered the right shoulder dead center...... or that is honest to god what I saw in the scope. Buffalo drops to the shot. And sure enough the solid had punched dead center completely through the buffalo shoulder and exited. Then someone said I had shot through a damn tree? What? I did not see a tree........ but look at what the solid went through before it dead centered the shoulder........No expanding premium is going to do that................Not even Raptor can do that...........

View attachment 545388

I shot another buffalo once on the run, I am not a good running shot, buffalo was running about 35 yards out, left to right....... I was shooting a M71 Lever gun in 50 B&M Alaskan, 365 gr Lever Raptor at 2250 fps, followed up by 405 Lever Solids at 2150 fps....... the 365 Raptor hit buffalo just behind the shoulders double lung, bucked up and kept going, next shot was a 405 Solid that hit him square in the guts, and he kept on running....... he stopped about 20 more steps and we had a battle then with nothing but 405 Solids at that point and ended the issue successfully......... Return to camp, view a video that was taken and I shot a damn tree 10 steps in front of me on the second shot with the Solids. You could see it clearly in the video, the solid hit the tree dead center, it was only about 3 inches in diameter, it punched through, went dead straight to the buffalo and hit the buffalo and exited as well........ although it was a gut hit, it was a hit none the less......... you could see the bullet blow through the tree and go straight to the buffalo..........

View attachment 545386View attachment 545387

Don't ever ask me if you need solids, the answer will always, 100% of the time be unequivocally YES YES YES................

Now you go do what you please, you have been told..............What you choose to do is on you......

End of Story
Michael

My God Man! What did those poor trees ever do to you??? Gonna start calling you pulp wood 458! LOL!

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

@Aussie_Hunter , apologies honestly, but your statement seems to be the common denominator for some of the folks on this thread...... so I am using it ..............

I absolutely disagree with the statement with EXTREME PREJUDICE.........

There are those that declare that solids are just no longer required in modern buffalo hunting with the extreme premium expanding bullets we have today......... I do not accept that opinion, and figure that is an opinion of someone with little experience in the field, and more experience reading a magazine. In fact, I am of the complete opposite opinion and believe the SOLID to be the very most important component of any hunt for Dangerous game, thin or thick skinned...... PERIOD.

Things go wrong in the field. Things that might be out of your control. That properly designed solid, in this case the 450 #13 CEB Safari Solid, just might get you out of a pickle and save the day.

Even with common practice, after that first shot is fired with your Trauma Inflicting bullet, Raptor, Swift, North Fork or what have you, you follow up with solids to pay the insurance. If your animal is still on his feet, more than likely he is not presenting the perfect shot on #2 or #3 or thereafter. It may be running through thick brush, your shot may and most likely will be the South End of a North Bound Freight train, and you will need extreme straight line penetration and bone busting ability to end the dance you just started.

And in the case of BUFFALO, South End of a North Bound Buff, there is NO PREMIUM that you can count on to go from the rear to the front........ Not even the mighty Raptor...... which will nearly double the penetration depth of most Premium expanding..........

Back many years ago I was working with an 18 inch 458 B&M, at the time I was shooting a 420 Raptor at 2250 fps and 450 Solids at 2200 fps....... At about 30 yards or so I shot a nice cow buffalo dead frontal heart shot. The animal turned and dropped, it did not go anywhere. I was determined to find that bullet. Back at the shed we spent a very long time looking and sifting through stomach contents, and finally found the bullet just as it exited the stomach. Meaning it passed through all the stomach contents and was found just beyond........... I was so amazed at this, I took a photo of what that bullet had to pass through........... There is NO PREMIUM SOFT POINT EXPANDING BULLET that will make it all the way through these stomach contents........ take a look............

View attachment 545385

Oh for sure, the Solids are the most important component in your success in the field...............

I have been backing up with Solids since 2005 on everything, regardless of Dangerous Game or just antelope or other species, for that Just in Case moment that everything is not as perfect as you hope for. And in many cases it saved the day......... And most days it made me feel far more confident that I could handle most any situation with Solids backing me up.

And yes, that goes for the PH's that will tell you you don't need solids as well...... Of course you don't, they are going to do any shooting for you that you can't handle, and if you don't have the proper tools to complete the mission, well that is on you. Don't worry about using solids then, let your PH take care of your problems.

My ammo load out for years has been around 80% Solids, and the rest Trauma inflicting bullets. If you want to take that perfect shot on the first round, then everything there after is NOT going to be a perfect shot, you are going to need that deep diving, deep penetrating solid, because the soft, is not going to get you where you need to be......

As stated, in the field things don't always go perfectly........ I shot a buffalo once with a 500 B&M, shooting 410 Raptors at 2500 fps, followed up by 450 gr Solids at 2450 fps....... I shot the buffalo quartering to me on point of the left shoulder, severe trauma, it turned to the left and I hammered the right shoulder dead center...... or that is honest to god what I saw in the scope. Buffalo drops to the shot. And sure enough the solid had punched dead center completely through the buffalo shoulder and exited. Then someone said I had shot through a damn tree? What? I did not see a tree........ but look at what the solid went through before it dead centered the shoulder........No expanding premium is going to do that................Not even Raptor can do that...........

View attachment 545388

I shot another buffalo once on the run, I am not a good running shot, buffalo was running about 35 yards out, left to right....... I was shooting a M71 Lever gun in 50 B&M Alaskan, 365 gr Lever Raptor at 2250 fps, followed up by 405 Lever Solids at 2150 fps....... the 365 Raptor hit buffalo just behind the shoulders double lung, bucked up and kept going, next shot was a 405 Solid that hit him square in the guts, and he kept on running....... he stopped about 20 more steps and we had a battle then with nothing but 405 Solids at that point and ended the issue successfully......... Return to camp, view a video that was taken and I shot a damn tree 10 steps in front of me on the second shot with the Solids. You could see it clearly in the video, the solid hit the tree dead center, it was only about 3 inches in diameter, it punched through, went dead straight to the buffalo and hit the buffalo and exited as well........ although it was a gut hit, it was a hit none the less......... you could see the bullet blow through the tree and go straight to the buffalo..........

View attachment 545386View attachment 545387

Don't ever ask me if you need solids, the answer will always, 100% of the time be unequivocally YES YES YES................

Now you go do what you please, you have been told..............What you choose to do is on you......

End of Story
Michael

Extreme prejudice? haha take it easy mate.
Go hunt with your solids all you want, I'm sure they do work just fine all I'm saying is they are not necessary and thats not based on only opinion thats based on facts. I shot a buffalo with solids once but that experience definitely pointed me back to premium softs. Also I do 99% of my buffalo hunting/DG hunting without a PH and I have been just fine with the rifles, calibres and softs I've used.

 

[fourfive8]

I don't know the construction of the Norma PH solid but it has a reasonably good rep for performance. Here are a couple of examples of using a "soft" for first shot on buffalo with followup shots using monolithic solids.

The example posted about earlier of shooting the buffalo angling toward at about 45 yards then follow up shots as it came by very close (less than 15 yards) in a straight line blur then going out of sight into thick brush, stopping about 100 yards after hit. Shown in first pic below. All the North Fork FP solids showed no deformation and were identical in appearance. The Swift A-Frame was classic mushroom with a recovered weight of 385 gr or about 96% weight retention.

The second example was from a buffalo shot under very similar circumstances that reacted similarly but at a longer range disappearing in a shallow donga full of tall grass. Again the TSX did as advertised and the follow up NF Cup Point solid bullets were all nearly identical to the one pictured with no weight loss with the cup nose expanded to about .440". Every CP solid bullet I've tested and recovered from game has looked nearly identical, with straight line penetration and a wound channel very slightly larger than monolithic FP solids. Predictably the CP solids do not penetrate as far as the FP solids but far exceed the penetration of normal soft points like the TSX, A-Frame and TBBCs by at least 75%.

Overall the only remarkable and surprising thing about the FP monolithics of this design, and I think @michael458 will agree, is their depth of straight line penetration. Sometimes, as reported by those who use them, they will penentrate buffalo stem to stern or vise versa. Obviously they are a superior bullet design for elephant.

 

[Ruraldoc]

My Norma Solids arrived today. They feed and eject perfectly in my M70 in 416 Remington. I will shoot some tomorrow and make sure point of impact is close to the A Frames. I suspect it will be as a couple of other 400 grain bullets have had a nearly identical point of impact. But will check to confirm this as well reliability in the M70.

 

[WAB]

Another vote for A-Frames or TBBC. Solids are totally unnecessary on buffalo with todays premium softs. As others have noted, solids present a very real potential liability with pass throughs.

 

[russ473]

In my humble opinion if your PH asks you to bring solids then bring solids he isnt saying leave the premiums he is asking you to bring solids along too he knows the area and is trying to ensure that your trophy is not lost or worse that people arent injured..... or worse.

 

[grand veneur]

We are only talking about solids for buffalo hunting, but in Africa you can sometimes encounter something else during your hunt where solids become necessary. An elephant attack for example.

One reason why the equipment of a right African hunter should include a few cartridges with solids, no matter what he is hunting.

 

[WAB]

We are only talking about solids for buffalo hunting, but in Africa you can sometimes encounter something else during your hunt where solids become necessary. An elephant attack for example.

One reason why the equipment of a right African hunter should include a few cartridges with solids, no matter what he is hunting.

Agreed. I always have a handful of solids along. I just don’t load them for buffalo. This has allowed me to take advantage of an impromptu elephant hunt in the past.

 

[michael458]

Overall the only remarkable and surprising thing about the FP monolithics of this design, and I think @michael458 will agree, is their depth of straight line penetration. Sometimes, as reported by those who use them, they will penentrate buffalo stem to stern or vise versa. Obviously they are a superior bullet design for elephant.

Oh absolutely 100% agree...... The early North Forks were a good design, but John (Former Owner of North Fork) was working on the new design at the same time we were working on the CEB #13s. The current design North Fork is absolutely superb, 100% dead straight line and extreme deep penetration, and that is the purpose of a properly designed Solid.

This is the early design North Forks. Most calibers they did very well. At times they would loose stability right at the end of penetration, but by that time it really was a moot point.

I was also doing a little experimenting, after the new design North Forks were done. John was visiting here one week and I wanted to change the North Fork bands on some of my bullets, so he took the designs back and sent these. These were absolutely superb bullets, and as you can see, penetration increases rather substantially, and always 100% dead straight and nose forward in every single test.

They are shockingly similar to the CEB #13s we designed here.... LOL, wonder how that is? The #13 Brass CEB is 13 degree angle off the nose, the North Forks are around 11 degrees I believe. The North Fork has a 68% Meplat of Caliber, while the CEB has 67% meplat of Caliber..... both will feed and function 100% in Winchester M70s, which they were designed to do. When you exceed 68% Meplat of caliber then you start to run into issues of feed/function.

Also note the Lever Solids, with the shorter Nose Projection above the top band. This was the last known factor in Solid Terminal Performance, the shorter the Nose Projection, depth of penetration decreases, longer Nose Projection, depth of penetration increases. Both are still 100% dead straight, because of Meplat Size and nose profile.

I have to give a nod to the North Fork for a slight increase in depth of penetration simply because of the angle off the nose. Both are superb, both are 100% Dead straight either in test medium or buffalo, elephant and hippo.

 

[michael458]

Even with common practice, after that first shot is fired with your Trauma Inflicting bullet, Raptor, Swift, North Fork or what have you, you follow up with solids to pay the insurance. If your animal is still on his feet, more than likely he is not presenting the perfect shot on #2 or #3 or thereafter. It may be running through thick brush, your shot may and most likely will be the South End of a North Bound Freight train, and you will need extreme straight line penetration and bone busting ability to end the dance you just started.

It seems that some might have a reading comprehension issue by thinking, or stating that I advocate for SOlids only, first and thereafter. This is not so, although I will be the first to admit, I would have zero issue with the concept. Regardless, I advocate for that first shot, where everything is calm and no battle is waging, to be a "trauma inflicting" bullet whether you choose a proper Swift or North Fork expanding premium, or something equal to, or the next step up in bullet tech which includes extreme trauma bullets such as the Raptors, Maximus, Hammers, or other. After that you will need your solids. As you can clearly see from what I said in the first post.

the follow up NF Cup Point solid bullets were all nearly identical to the one pictured with no weight loss with the cup nose expanded to about .440". Every CP solid bullet I've tested and recovered from game has looked nearly identical, with straight line penetration and a wound channel very slightly larger than monolithic FP solids. Predictably the CP solids do not penetrate as far as the FP solids but far exceed the penetration of normal soft points like the TSX, A-Frame and TBBCs by at least 75%

Very true @fourfive8 . These are incredible bullets, and incredible tech. John from North Fork explained it the best I have heard yet, he told me once during a visit here "The CPS, Cup Point Solid, fools the test medium into believing the Meplat size is much larger than caliber, with the dished in Cup, meplat size is actually increased substantially, hitting harder up front, and with the lips deforming somewhat increases trauma inflicted", and that is exactly what it does.

The North Fork CPS, Woodleigh Hydro work very similar and are considered "Limited Penetration Solids" Because of the enlarged size of the meplat and other factors, they cannot penetrate as deep as the deep diving solids. They inflict more trauma than a regular proper designed solid because of this. And as @fourfive8 states they far out penetrate any conventional premium expanding, and even the next generation trauma inflicting bullets such as the Raptors. Compare penetration of CPS vs Older Version North Forks

And a Woodleigh Hydro...

And again a properly designed Solid for Deep and straight line penetration...

I tested the North Fork CPS designed for the 45/70 lever guns early on. 325 and 350 gr. What I found was just incredible, it was a deep diving expanding CPS.... Performance was incredible in even larger capacity 458s...... These bullets are absolutely Buffalo Capable......even at 325 gr. and 350 gr.

I was so impressed by this performance that John and I worked on a .500 caliber version and then later a .474 caliber version for my B&M rifles.........

My Son later used these in his 50 B&M Super Short for a good size Aussie Bull with incredible success.....

Naturally his third shot that put the bull in the dirt was the incredible 375 gr North Fork designed for the cartridge/rifle...... of course it was not recovered.......

For my larger capacity .500 caliber rifles we worked with a 450 gr Expanding CPS.......... Matched up with a 450 gr North Fork Solid.......

Later I developed the .474 caliber B&Ms and we designed a 425 gr Expanding CPS which I used on one of my favorite Aussie Bulls in 2012 as I recall..... dead center shoulder shot, exited and end of story..... I never even had a chance to shoot a solid...... and I like to shoot........

 

[Ruraldoc]

I was able to shoot the Norma Solids today in my M70 in 416 Remington.

They fed,functioned and ejected perfectly. I shot one round at 35 yards and it’s dead on.

The rifle is zeroed at 100 yards with A Frames. Also shot a couple at 100 yards and point of impact overlaps the A Frames nicely.

I leave in 3 weeks so I’m glad it’s all coming together. The rifle is perfectly zeroed at 35 yards and 100 yards with the two bullets.

Also 400 grain Partitions are useable with the same zero.

 

[Ruraldoc]

Just got back can report that I killed an old dagga boy with a single 400 grain Swift A Frame to the heart and lungs. No follow up with the solids in the magazine was necessary. Bull went about 75 yards and fell to never get up. Stone dead when we reached him.

Also used the same bullet to take a very nice kudu bull and a zebra stallion. Both one shot kills to the heart/lungs with big exits and rapid results.

Thanks for the input of everyone here.

 

[Andrew62]

Just take the A frames and say you could not find solids.....

I've taken 11 buffalo, 10 were basically one shot kills with either Barnes TSX or Hornady DGX, the only one that gave me a struggle was the one I took back in 1988 when the PH said to only bring solids. That took 7 shots and was a s*** show. Everyone has their own opinions and experiences, but for me, NEVER will I ever put a solid in my rifle when hunting buffalo, Swift is what I am taking on my next 2 buffalo hunts.

 

[Puddle]

PH's, just like client hunters, have all formed their own opinions. The PH I hunted buff with this season replied "your bringing A-Frames? Then don't bother bringing solids".

Someday, I'm gonna get to try these Hydros....