Load testing the 9.3 x 64

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hello Ken,

Yes, very different, indeed!!
I use and have used all these bullets in those standard velocity cartridges.
And, for my uses, the NP and the H-Mantel are my first chices.
As the old said: "...what is poison for someone is an elixir for someother..."

Best!

CF

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

here are some loads i developed for my 9.3 x 64.
i have noticed that spec chambers have a very low angle of leade/throat, lower than the 1.5 degrees common today.
if your rifle has a steeper angle here, beware of these loads.
as with all personal data, please be aware that this is my rifle, with my powder lot etc etc, and do not take them as gospel in any other rifle ot component lots.
rifle is a mk10 mauser with a lothar walther chrome moly barrel about but not exactly 26" .
this barrel copper fouls badly, but shoots honest 1" or better groups with loads it likes.
all primers are fed 215.
270 gn speer ar2209 77gn 2683 fps
78gn 2717 fps
79gn 2734 fps extreme max

re 15 66gn 2542 fps high pressure not recommended
this powder is reputed to be a little temp sensative.
bullet too soft for all but small game at these speeds.

286 nosler partition ar2209 76 gn 2650 fps
this bullet looked good on paper, but has failed twice. even though its b.c. looks good, what might happen at the other end is too risky.
maybe better in the x62.

286 barnes ar2209 69gn 2423 fps
71gn 2474 fps
73gn 2557fps
long bullet requires a lot of powder compression.
look at the 250 gn for certain applications.

293 tug ar2209 73gn 2540fps
75gn 2600fps
this bullet is meant for lower velocities (9.3 x 62?)

300gn swift aframe ar2209 70 gn 2415 fps
71 gn 2446 fps
72 gn 2480 fps.
stout recoil on my light rifle.
investigate the 250 and 286 aframe in light of this.

ar2209 is sold as h4350 other than australia, and is manufactured here by a d i.
not too different to imr4350.
it is less temp sensative than some powders.
most of these loads have some degree of compression.
hope this helps someone, as i had trouble finding data, and there were huge differences in some found.

@bruce moulds
Saw some 9.3x64 cases on usedguns.com.au today. Nice a nd cheap 247 dollars for 100 cases.
That's w by I stick to the Whelen mate. Cheap cases and projectiles.
A 275 grain Woodleigh at 2,500 fps isn't that far behind your 286 grain loads especially the Barnes.
Bob.

 

[bruce moulds]

bob,
those cases are worth every cent.
and so are swift bullets.
bruce.

 

[K95]

ken, i cannot say about those lengths and loads from experience, as my mag is 30/06 length and i load to that.
all the bullets i have tried can be loaded to that except the 300 gn swift.
i can now load that to that length as well, as i bought a throating reamer and lengthened it to suit.
your velocities seem realistic based on my loads .
thank you for the trajectory figures.
i sight in my 286 dead on at just over 200, and call point blank just over 250, and if it seems like a really long way (300) aim about 8" high.
it looks like the 250 barnes might be stretched to a 300 yd point blank on big game.
bruce.

Bruce
Thanks for that information and long throating seems to help a great deal with longer Bullets, reducing pressure, and increasing powder capacity. A great mate of mine who I have hunted here and around the world with is a great believer of long , Nick Harvey. He has had this done with a 257 Roberts along with his 338 win mag with excellent results. I spend quite a bit of time at the range with him working on load development and I can assure you his 338 is as good as my 340. It’s the way to go if you want to increase your cartridge potential with less pressure.
Ken

Hello Ken,

Yes, very different, indeed!!
I use and have used all these bullets in those standard velocity cartridges.
And, for my uses, the NP and the H-Mantel are my first chices.
As the old said: "...what is poison for someone is an elixir for someother..."

Best!

CF

Hello Ken,

Yes, very different, indeed!!
I use and have used all these bullets in those standard velocity cartridges.
And, for my uses, the NP and the H-Mantel are my first chices.
As the old said: "...what is poison for someone is an elixir for someother..."

Best!

CF

Clodo

 

[sambarhunter]

275 grain Woodleigh at 2,500 fps

You must be cramming the grains in for that ha ha...it wont be running 2500 fps for very far.

bob,
those cases are worth every cent.

bruce.

Yes worth every cent for a superior calibre.

A 285 Norma Alaska spun her 180 on the spot like a toy spinning top.
I have shot a lot of sambar with a lot of calibres that all kill but the 9.3 x 64 slams them.

Norma seems to be a little more 'conservative' with their 275 loads

 

[bruce moulds]

k95,
i only increased the throat length a little bit, and that was to allow the 300 gn swift to fill my 30/06 length mag. the factory length seems to be meant for an 8x57 length mag.
all other bullets tried fitted the lothar walther throat in the longer mag.
the leade angle of the 9.3x64 is around 1/2 degree which gives the illusion of a longer throat.
i lost about 12 fps with original loads, so not much change.
increasing throat length to allow 3.6" ammo would give meaningful capacity gains.
however then you would need a 375 length action.
one of the strengths of the x64 is 375 power in a 30/06 length action.
sambarhunter,
yes the x64 does slam things down.
when you fire the shot and before recoil, you can see them in the scope looking like they have just received 60,000 volts.
their heads go back and their tongues pop out, and they are dead before they even start to drop, which happens fast.
nothing can be more humane than that.
bob, the x64 can do a 300 gn bullet at 2550.
this in h&h country with a bullet of greater s.d.
we often hear of the x64 compared to the 375, but not often the whelen.
however the 286 at 2600 shoots flatter and with good bullets will kill most things just as well.
matching the bullet to the velocity and the game is always of benefit.
bruce.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hello Bruce and Ken,

I also like long throats chambers for the same reasons you mention. Almost all the European designed cartridges, from military origin, and sporting as well, have this feature, plus a gentle angle of the lands starts.
Combined with a corresponding long enough magazine, the increse in actual case volume, and velocity, can be noticeable.
The 7x57 has near 20 mm from the chamber neck to the lands starts.
The 7x64 has 34 mm!! As all the 8mm from the 8x57 IS to the 8x68 S.
Both 9,3s, x62 and x64, have 28 mm from the neck border to the begining of the lands.
But, to take advantage of these loooong throats about increase the cartridge case volume, a long magazine is needed.
I do that in my 7x57 with a standard Mauser 98 magazine, where I load it with 160 an 175 gr bullets with their bases at the neck/shoulder junction. A concept like the one in the 6,5 CM by the way. Loaded the 7x57 like I do, the real velocity difference with the 7x64 is no more than 50/75 p/s at most, all other factors the same. An extra long magazine of long Magnum lenght is needed to do the same with the 7x64 ...
My 9,3x62 is an original BRNO ZKK 600, that has a 89 mm magazine lenght! So I load my cartridges with a long OAL, MUCH longer than the max Std. 9,3x62 cartridge lenght. So, again, the velocity difference with a 9,3x64 with a Std. magazine lenght, loaded both at similar modern safe maximum presures, is muuuch less than the factory cartridges show.

CF

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bruce
Thanks for that information and long throating seems to help a great deal with longer Bullets, reducing pressure, and increasing powder capacity. A great mate of mine who I have hunted here and around the world with is a great believer of long , Nick Harvey. He has had this done with a 257 Roberts along with his 338 win mag with excellent results. I spend quite a bit of time at the range with him working on load development and I can assure you his 338 is as good as my 340. It’s the way to go if you want to increase your cartridge potential with less pressure.
Ken


Clodo

@K95
Yes Uncle Nick does like his long throated rifles. My 25 and 35 are long throated and boy does it make a difference.
@K95 if you are who I think you are and your last name begins with H there is a person on this forum looking for advice on the K95 for
prolonged use in NZ that you may be able to help.
Welcome to the forum mate
Bob

 

[sestoppelman]

You must be cramming the grains in for that ha ha...it wont be running 2500 fps for very far.

Yes worth every cent for a superior calibre.

A 285 Norma Alaska spun her 180 on the spot like a toy spinning top.
I have shot a lot of sambar with a lot of calibres that all kill but the 9.3 x 64 slams them.

View attachment 403849

Norma seems to be a little more 'conservative' with their 275 loads

View attachment 403850

Thats one of Bob's light loads! Only musters up 3820 foot lbs of energy!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

k95,
i only increased the throat length a little bit, and that was to allow the 300 gn swift to fill my 30/06 length mag. the factory length seems to be meant for an 8x57 length mag.
all other bullets tried fitted the lothar walther throat in the longer mag.
the leade angle of the 9.3x64 is around 1/2 degree which gives the illusion of a longer throat.
i lost about 12 fps with original loads, so not much change.
increasing throat length to allow 3.6" ammo would give meaningful capacity gains.
however then you would need a 375 length action.
one of the strengths of the x64 is 375 power in a 30/06 length action.
sambarhunter,
yes the x64 does slam things down.
when you fire the shot and before recoil, you can see them in the scope looking like they have just received 60,000 volts.
their heads go back and their tongues pop out, and they are dead before they even start to drop, which happens fast.
nothing can be more humane than that.
bob, the x64 can do a 300 gn bullet at 2550.
this in h&h country with a bullet of greater s.d.
we often hear of the x64 compared to the 375, but not often the whelen.
however the 286 at 2600 shoots flatter and with good bullets will kill most things just as well.
matching the bullet to the velocity and the game is always of benefit.
bruce.

@bruce moulds
I got in touch with Geoff at Woodleigh bullets and his loads correspond with mine but as mine is long throated and I Canada the bullets out in hoping to get 2,300 fps with the 310 when the shoulder heals.
A good 250 fps slowerer than the 64 so the 64 will run rings around it but will be the same area a fraction better than the 62.
Bob

 

[K95]

@K95
Yes Uncle Nick does like his long throated rifles. My 25 and 35 are long throated and boy does it make a difference.
@K95 if you are who I think you are and your last name begins with H there is a person on this forum looking for advice on the K95 for
prolonged use in NZ that you may be able to help.
Welcome to the forum mate
Bob

Hi Bob
Yes it looks like you do know me, and if I can help someone in anyway with the most light weight, compact, versatile, and accurate rifle I have ever owned it would be my pleasure. Please forward him on to me .
Cheers Ken H

 

[K95]

this thread including clodo is becoming very interesting.
bullets that i have not tried are coming to the surface.
bruce.

Hi Bruce
Talking about Bullets, have you ever tried Bear claws. Two year ago I reviewed a Federal bullet they call trophy bonded tip. Federal load the Bear claw in a lot of there large caliber ammunition, big stuff like 416, 470, 500. Etc. They bought out Bear claw and streamlined the Bear claw giving it a much better BC poly tips and boat tails, but still maintaining its original integrity. These are a copper bullet but with a large tear drop of bonded lead in the front section. When they hit they create a large frontal area mushroom staying together and keeping their weight into the high 90%. I found them to be very accurate and distance and velocity didn’t make mush difference to there performance. Deep penetration with tremendous internal damage. If you read sporting shooter you may have read it a couple of years ago. During the review I shot Fallow and Sambar dropping them both where they stood. Caliber was a 270 Weatherby 130gr. It’s a shame they don’t sell the bullet component over 30 cal. They penetrate like a Barnes and keep their weight but expand larger.

 

[sambarhunter]

I have shot a few sambar with both .358 and .308 Norma mags using Hydros,they are devastating killers. I shudder to think of what the 9.3 x 64 would do.
I have mentioned this previously the .308 NM drove a 180 Hydro from a starting point an inch from the freckle the full length of a sambar hind (a big mature too) and exited her chest.
Ever shot a rabbit up the arse with a 22 WMR ? Same.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hi Bob
Yes it looks like you do know me, and if I can help someone in anyway with the most light weight, compact, versatile, and accurate rifle I have ever owned it would be my pleasure. Please forward him on to me .
Cheers Ken H

@K95
I hope you and the family are keeping well
Maybe you could do a write u p here showing your MARLIN converted to 307 winchester. Our gun Smith Rob Spittles did a great job on it.
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

Hi Bruce
Talking about Bullets, have you ever tried Bear claws. Two year ago I reviewed a Federal bullet they call trophy bonded tip. Federal load the Bear claw in a lot of there large caliber ammunition, big stuff like 416, 470, 500. Etc. They bought out Bear claw and streamlined the Bear claw giving it a much better BC poly tips and boat tails, but still maintaining its original integrity. These are a copper bullet but with a large tear drop of bonded lead in the front section. When they hit they create a large frontal area mushroom staying together and keeping their weight into the high 90%. I found them to be very accurate and distance and velocity didn’t make mush difference to there performance. Deep penetration with tremendous internal damage. If you read sporting shooter you may have read it a couple of years ago. During the review I shot Fallow and Sambar dropping them both where they stood. Caliber was a 270 Weatherby 130gr. It’s a shame they don’t sell the bullet component over 30 cal. They penetrate like a Barnes and keep their weight but expand larger.

ken,
no i have not tried them, primarily due to availability.
they look to be a superb bullet.
the brand that was sold to scandinavia looks similar, but without plastic tips.
i might have pursued the in 9.3x64 but for 2 things.
with my mag length, and using 2209, shorter bullets are more suitable.
and i have come to avoid plastic tips.
lead soft points have proven to be more constistent terminally, and any so called b.c. advantage they offer is unnoticeable in the real world.
plastic tips can sometimes pencil through, and sometimes open faster than average.
the fact that they worked for you on both fallow and sambar tells the story.
swifts are a bit the same in that respect, extremely versatile.
i remember ross seyfreid writing about barnesx, bear claws, and swifts in an article where he did testing in oz.
it was quite an eye opener at the time, and quite a shock to many australians.
i suspect bearclaws and the other brand similar might be the ultimate all round bullet for such rounds as the 7mm stw with their high speed and wide range of targets capability.
bruce.

 

[K95]

I have shot a few sambar with both .358 and .308 Norma mags using Hydros,they are devastating killers. I shudder to think of what the 9.3 x 64 would do.
I have mentioned this previously the .308 NM drove a 180 Hydro from a starting point an inch from the freckle the full length of a sambar hind (a big mature too) and exited her chest.
Ever shot a rabbit up the arse with a 22 WMR ? Same.

Hi Sambar hunter
There’s two great calibers. I once bought 200 new 308 Norma mag cases in a gun shop that was priced At 308 win . From memory it was $8.00 a box. I was always going to built one after that but never got around to it. The 358 Norma mag is truly a great all round cartridge. I always wanted one of those , especially after reading a article by Jon R Sundra. Though it would be a perfect caliber for Alaska. When I did travel there I took two great European cartridges the 8 x 68 and 9.3 x 64 and never looked back. Still I’m sure the 358 mag would have done the same.
Ken

 

[sambarhunter]

K95 .both quoted calibres are under the radar of many hunters and many don`t know of them at all. Both before their time and both are hammers.
.the 358 compares to some awesome calibres as its awesome itself.

 

[K95]

ken,
no i have not tried them, primarily due to availability.
they look to be a superb bullet.
the brand that was sold to scandinavia looks similar, but without plastic tips.
i might have pursued the in 9.3x64 but for 2 things.
with my mag length, and using 2209, shorter bullets are more suitable.
and i have come to avoid plastic tips.
lead soft points have proven to be more constistent terminally, and any so called b.c. advantage they offer is unnoticeable in the real world.
plastic tips can sometimes pencil through, and sometimes open faster than average.
the fact that they worked for you on both fallow and sambar tells the story.
swifts are a bit the same in that respect, extremely versatile.
i remember ross seyfreid writing about barnesx, bear claws, and swifts in an article where he did testing in oz.
it was quite an eye opener at the time, and quite a shock to many australians.
i suspect bearclaws and the other brand similar might be the ultimate all round bullet for such rounds as the 7mm stw with their high speed and wide range of targets capability.
bruce.

Bruce
Yes I agree with you there on plastic tips. With all the hype about everyone wanting to shoot at game at extreme ranges I wanted to find a bullet that would work at different ranges. I’m old school the closer the better. Interesting a good mate of mine, Bob has been Alaskan guide for over 30 years. He collects a lot of information for the Alaskan hunting guides association and publishes results to all its members. He did a survey on his personal experience and all the other guides with there clients to find the best bullet for there big game. Now over the years there has probably been more big game shot over there with the Nosler Partition then any thing else. The results differed, they recommended the partition good for caribou, sheep and deer but not strong enough for big bear and moose. This will probably upset some hunters but for use in all conditions the 3 top projectiles were bear claw, A swift, and Barnes. Personally I have found A Swift my go to bullet when I mean business.
Cheers Ken

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hi Sambar hunter
There’s two great calibers. I once bought 200 new 308 Norma mag cases in a gun shop that was priced At 308 win . From memory it was $8.00 a box. I was always going to built one after that but never got around to it. The 358 Norma mag is truly a great all round cartridge. I always wanted one of those , especially after reading a article by Jon R Sundra. Though it would be a perfect caliber for Alaska. When I did travel there I took two great European cartridges the 8 x 68 and 9.3 x 64 and never looked back. Still I’m sure the 358 mag would have done the same.
Ken

@K95
I have a nice 35 Whelen AI you could get Rob to run a 358 Norma reamer into that he built for me. That would cure your 358 Norma itch.
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

Bruce
Yes I agree with you there on plastic tips. With all the hype about everyone wanting to shoot at game at extreme ranges I wanted to find a bullet that would work at different ranges. I’m old school the closer the better. Interesting a good mate of mine, Bob has been Alaskan guide for over 30 years. He collects a lot of information for the Alaskan hunting guides association and publishes results to all its members. He did a survey on his personal experience and all the other guides with there clients to find the best bullet for there big game. Now over the years there has probably been more big game shot over there with the Nosler Partition then any thing else. The results differed, they recommended the partition good for caribou, sheep and deer but not strong enough for big bear and moose. This will probably upset some hunters but for use in all conditions the 3 top projectiles were bear claw, A swift, and Barnes. Personally I have found A Swift my go to bullet when I mean business.
Cheers Ken

ken,
i have upset a few here by saying the same thing.
nosler partitions are superb on smaller boned lighter animals, but the 3 others you mentioned are better on bigger boned bigger bodied animals.
the swift is a safe go to bullet for its ability to handle bigger and smaller animals.
1 man, 1 rifle, 1 load, is never a bad idea.
bruce.