Great Cats & Shotguns (Personal Experiences)

[Major Khan]

Poton and Kawshik,
You two are walking encyclopedias of practical hunting knowledge. I never realized how ignorant I was until I started reading your articles--and I have hunted all my life. I have not encountered dangerous game except for my cape buff. I, and probably everyone who reads your articles, feel we have learned so much and are very appreciative. Keep writing on any hunting subject you care to. We eagerly await.

Do not speak like that , Newboomer.
I am certain that you are experienced in many aspects of hunting which we are completely ignorant about . For example , l never knew that Winchester re introduced the control round feed configuration in their Model 70 bolt rifles , until l joined this site . And it was from your reply to 1 of my posts , that l got introduced to Montana Rifle Company .
I would love to hear about what calibre and cartridge you used to take your cape buffalo someday . It would be my privilege to know .
By the way , l will write another new article tomorrow and l hope that you will enjoy it , my friend.

 

[Stephen Ausband]

Another excellent and well-written article. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

First off, thank you so much for writing these articles. I pulled up every one you have written so far and am going through all of them eagerly. They are extremely well written and I am enjoying them very much.

To the African hunters on this board, I have a question. I remember reading an article in a gun magazine some time ago where the author said that his professional hunter carried a double barrel 10 gauge shotgun to back up the author for an African leopard hunt. Is it common practice to use a shotgun of any kind as a backup weapon in Africa for leopards these days? I have often wondered if it was really a double barrel rifle rather than a shotgun and the author of that article just didn't know any better.

Ryan 80
Thank you so much for your kind words. I never knew that l am any good at writing until l wrote one article here , just as a way of trying things out .
Poton's information is pin-point accurate

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Poton and Kawshik,
You two are walking encyclopedias of practical hunting knowledge. I never realized how ignorant I was until I started reading your articles--and I have hunted all my life. I have not encountered dangerous game except for my cape buff. I, and probably everyone who reads your articles, feel we have learned so much and are very appreciative. Keep writing on any hunting subject you care to. We eagerly await.

Newboomer
Thank you so much for your kind words and support. I apologise for the late reply as l was celebrating New year's Eve with my niece , her fiance and his parents . Poton came with us too to the party . Of yes , there will be many more articles to come to this beautiful community . And Poton is correct . Do not underestimate your own knowledge and experience in the slightest . We learn so much about African hunting from you gentlemen every single day .
Did you use your .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre bolt operation rifle for your cape buffalo Shikar or did you use your .404 Jeffery bolt operation rifle ?

 

[Newboomer]

Poton and Kawshik,
I used my 375HH Win 70 Safari Express with Barnes 350g TSX and 63g of 4064. I shot him head on at about 50 yards and we found him about 75 yards away stone dead. Never found the bullet, the outfitter figured it went clear through him stem to stern.

My ignorance stems from no knowledge of Indian hunting, especially in your era and with the "primitive" weaponry you had to use. You and Kawshik had fascinating careers. I am always intrigued by different firearms and methods and learn so much from your articles. Keep them coming.

 

[ryan80]

Major Khan and Mr Rahman, reading your articles and the limitations of buckshot on big cats and other dangerous game reminded me of something I have heard about for a while called "cut shells."

Basically, one takes a shell and cuts around the circumference of it, but without cutting it quite into 2 pieces. When fired, rather than the shot getting blown out the of the crimp in the top of the shell and spreading out, the entire front half of the shell comes out of the end of the barrel, separating where it was partially cut and holding the shot together into a single heavy projectile.

My searches on the internet have found dozens of people claiming that this is utter nonsense and quite dangerous and others saying that this is how their family sourced deer meat for years using cheap bird shot shells and is accurate and useful for whitetail deer and black bear at a distance up to 40 yards. I have also seen where it is specifically now outlawed for hunting in certain states in the US.

Let me also say that I have never tried doing this, I am not sure how well or if it works at all and I would be absolutely devastated if anyone else tried this and damaged a firearm, or worse, hurt themselves. So please, as they say on TV, "do not try this at home!" But I was curious if either of you gentlemen or anyone else on this forum has a first hand account of this being done.

I could see several dangers of this such as it getting stuck in the barrel and bulging or rupturing it, the oddly shaped projectile flying erratically, the shell breaking in an autoloader or pump, a piece of the shell staying in the barrel and then causing catastrophic damage on the next shot, etc. And of course, it ruins the shell for reloaded purposes.

I have taken the below description of this from the following website:
https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug

Cut shell slugs
Yet another variant of a Great Depression era shotgun slug design is the cut shell. These were made by hand from a standard birdshot shotshell by cutting a ring around and through the hull of the shell that nearly encircles the shell, with the cut traditionally located in the middle of the wad separating the powder and shot. Usually, just a small amount of the wall of the original shell was retained, amounting to roughly 1/4 of the circumference of the shotshell hull. When fired in a single-shot or double-barreled break-action shotgun, the end of the shotshell hull separates from the head of the shell, and travels down range. Cut shells generally provided accuracy up to distances of approximately 35 to 40 yards, all while avoiding the need to cast or fire a "pumpkin ball". They were often handmade on the spot as the need arose while on a hunt for small game, if a larger game animal such as a deer or a bear appeared. Cut shell slugs were often used to add to the larder during the Great Depression. These cut shell slugs can be dangerous, as they are thought to cause higher chamber pressures. Part of the shell may remain behind in the barrel, causing problems if not noticed and cleared before another shot is fired.

 

[Major Khan]

Major Khan and Mr Rahman, reading your articles and the limitations of buckshot on big cats and other dangerous game reminded me of something I have heard about for a while called "cut shells."

Basically, one takes a shell and cuts around the circumference of it, but without cutting it quite into 2 pieces. When fired, rather than the shot getting blown out the of the crimp in the top of the shell and spreading out, the entire front half of the shell comes out of the end of the barrel, separating where it was partially cut and holding the shot together into a single heavy projectile.

My searches on the internet have found dozens of people claiming that this is utter nonsense and quite dangerous and others saying that this is how their family sourced deer meat for years using cheap bird shot shells and is accurate and useful for whitetail deer and black bear at a distance up to 40 yards. I have also seen where it is specifically now outlawed for hunting in certain states in the US.

Let me also say that I have never tried doing this, I am not sure how well or if it works at all and I would be absolutely devastated if anyone else tried this and damaged a firearm, or worse, hurt themselves. So please, as they say on TV, "do not try this at home!" But I was curious if either of you gentlemen or anyone else on this forum has a first hand account of this being done.

I could see several dangers of this such as it getting stuck in the barrel and bulging or rupturing it, the oddly shaped projectile flying erratically, the shell breaking in an autoloader or pump, a piece of the shell staying in the barrel and then causing catastrophic damage on the next shot, etc. And of course, it ruins the shell for reloaded purposes.

I have taken the below description of this from the following website:
https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug

Cut shell slugs
Yet another variant of a Great Depression era shotgun slug design is the cut shell. These were made by hand from a standard birdshot shotshell by cutting a ring around and through the hull of the shell that nearly encircles the shell, with the cut traditionally located in the middle of the wad separating the powder and shot. Usually, just a small amount of the wall of the original shell was retained, amounting to roughly 1/4 of the circumference of the shotshell hull. When fired in a single-shot or double-barreled break-action shotgun, the end of the shotshell hull separates from the head of the shell, and travels down range. Cut shells generally provided accuracy up to distances of approximately 35 to 40 yards, all while avoiding the need to cast or fire a "pumpkin ball". They were often handmade on the spot as the need arose while on a hunt for small game, if a larger game animal such as a deer or a bear appeared. Cut shell slugs were often used to add to the larder during the Great Depression. These cut shell slugs can be dangerous, as they are thought to cause higher chamber pressures. Part of the shell may remain behind in the barrel, causing problems if not noticed and cleared before another shot is fired.

I have no doubt that this has been done , Ryan 80 . I do not wish to take any names , but l know someone who poaches deer in India by doing this . All hunting is banned in India since 1972 , because of the sick vegetarian and vegan cow urine drinking and monkey worshipping sons of bitches who run the country now . So , l do not begrudge my friend for hunting the occasional deer for the pot even if it is illegal in India . In India after 1972 , civilians are not allowed to own any shot size larger than no. 1 . So what my friend ( let us call him Mr. X ) does is this :
He owns an Indian Ordinance Factories 12 calibre double barreled side by side shot gun ( possession of imported weapons have also been prohibited there since 1972 . Imagine what a hellish country those vegans have made India ) .
He uses no.1 cartridges made by the Indian Ordinance Factories , cut this way to shoot swamp deer and cheetal deer . It usually gets the work done . However , l personally am not a fan of doing this :
1stly , back in the old days an imported cartridge was very valuable and difficult to come by . We would re load empty cartridge cases as many times as possible to get the most out of it . 1 paper cartridge from Eley would typically last 3 re loads back in those days . No one would want to destroy an useful cartridge case by cutting it .
2ndly , the penetration of bird shot is dismal no matter what , compared to a Brenekke slug or at least a 16 calibre spherical lead ball ( like what l used to use and still do use ) . When assessing the penetration of bird shot , you cannot assess it's penetration as a mass . The penetration capacity of each pellet must be assessed individually .
3rdly , the spike in pressures is very dangerous for your shot gun . I would certainly never attempt something like this in my prized Belgian shot gun .

 

[Newboomer]

My Dad used to do that occasionally if he didn't have the right shell at the time. He had an old single barrel 12 guage and he'd cut the shell just ahead of the base so the whole thing would fire as a unit. It worked and was quite lethal at short range.

 

[Major Khan]

My Dad used to do that occasionally if he didn't have the right shell at the time. He had an old single barrel 12 guage and he'd cut the shell just ahead of the base so the whole thing would fire as a unit. It worked and was quite lethal at short range.

Was that single barrel shot gun a J Stevens model by any chance , New Boomer ? They used to be very popular among my American clients for bird shooting back in the 1960s . Some were passed on from their fathers .

 

[Newboomer]

I have no idea. This was back in the 1950s and the gun was ancient then. I think he picked it up in one of his innumerable trades.

 

[WebleyGreene455]

Kawshik, have you ever known anyone to use a Drilling combination gun on leopard, or tiger or any other big cat for that matter? I'm curious how effective the combination of, say, 2x 16-gauge slugs/slug-and-shot + a 9.3x72mm rifle bullet would be.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Kawshik, have you ever known anyone to use a Drilling combination gun on leopard, or tiger or any other big cat for that matter? I'm curious how effective the combination of, say, 2x 16-gauge slugs/slug-and-shot + a 9.3x72mm rifle bullet would be.

WebleyGreene455
Unfortunately , during my career as a professional Shikari in Darjeeling , India from 1962 to 1970 , the only 9.3 millimeter calibre which l had seen clients bring was the 9.3 millimeter mauser calibre and this was invariably in bolt operation rifles
My learned colleague @Major Khan has seen a few such combination- rifles as you inquire about in his career . Perhaps , he can lend us his insight ?

 

[crudeoildude]

Kwashik do you think todays buck shot is of a harder lead and what of large steel shot would it still flatten out ?thank you for this article I enjoy them all

 

[WebleyGreene455]

WebleyGreene455
Unfortunately , during my career as a professional Shikari in Darjeeling , India from 1962 to 1970 , the only 9.3 millimeter calibre which l had seen clients bring was the 9.3 millimeter mauser calibre and this was invariably in bolt operation rifles
My learned colleague @Major Khan has seen a few such combination- rifles as you inquire about in his career . Perhaps , he can lend us his insight ?

I'd be delighted to hear anything he can add to the topic! c:

 

[Adam From Africa]

Mr Rahman, what a wonderful, enjoyable experience to read your writings. Thank you for these pleasures and I look forward to many more!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I see on these forums that groups are largely divided amongst each other on a passionately debated topic : Do shot-guns work for killing leopards and tigers ? . While l am by no means, an expert or a very well read man , l have killed 36 great cats in my career as a professional Shikari . This is 32 leopards and four Royal Bengal tigers . Therefore , however rudimentary , l believe that l can be allowed to say that l have some experience on the matter.
The issue here is whether large shot ( which my fellow respected American sportsmen refer to as buck -shot) will kill a leopard. The purpose of this article is not to impose my views upon anybody , but rather to share my own views on the matter in greater detail than can be done by simply responding to a thread. I am very grateful to fellow forum members Hoss Delgado , IvW and Mark Hunter for providing me with certain details and photographs which l will use in this article alongside my own . Let us begin.
I have killed 26 leopards and two Royal Bengal tigers with SG cartridge which is the equivalent of the American 0 buck-shot . It normally contains nine pellets each being a round lead ball of .32 in calibre . To put matters into perspective , my niece owns a Cheetah model pistol fromBeretta in .32 bore . Leopard number 32 was a man eater , killed in 1995 , long after after l had stopped being a professional Shikari in 1970 ( before the Bangladesh Liberation war in 1971 ).
From 1962 to 1970 , for my personal hunting and for assisting clients , l used an Ishapore Arms Factory 12 bore side by side shot-gun which had chambers made to take the classic 70 millimeter cartridge. Initially this gun came with 32 inch fully choked muzzles , but in order to use larger sizes of shot than number 1 , l cut the length of the muzzle down to 28 inches and thus removed the chokes.

For the first eight leopards and two Royal Bengal tigers which l had killed , l had used a stock of old ICI Kynoch 12 bore cartridges , loaded with what the firm called “ Lethal ball “. My young and extremely well read friend , Hoss Delgado actually took the time to find a picture of such a cartridge on the internet for me to use on the internet.
However , l only had twenty cartridges for this type of ammunition and soon it was expended. Fortunately , one of my clients , a Spanish American gentleman by the name of Don Fernando Delgado ( who was a repeat client and is Hoss Delgado’s grandfather ) used to bring 250 cartridges of 12 bore SG during every one of his trips to India for me . On occasion , he would sent the over into India through customs , but never in quantities larger than 250 cartridges for legal reasons. I would use these extensively for hunting four legged animals . In fact , in my entire life the only five shot sizes l have ever used are : SG for four legged animals , AAA for cranes and geese , number 1 for ducks , number 6 for general birds and hares and number 8 for doves and the snipe.
When supplies of cartridges were low ( which was frequent , because Shikar season lasted seven months ) , l would reload cartridges with SG pellets made by using moulding them from lead with a shot ladle . The SG pellets would then have hot molten wax from bees poured over theming order to reduce their spreading and increase range a little bit. It must be said here that l was killing leopards in two contexts : The first was when l was pursuing leopards injured by clients and incorrect aiming. The second was when my former Shikar partner , the late Karim Chowdhury and l were killing leopards for their skins. A leopard skin back in those days fetched us Rupees 8,000. To put matters into perspective , this was double of what l would be paid for guiding a single client back in those days.
Let us discuss how Karim and l killed leopards . During the time of which l speak ( 1962 to 1970) , the words " ethical killing " were practically unheard of by local hunters in India. We had money to make . A very popular ( yet unethical method ) of killing the great cats for their skin was by using Folidol to poison them . A little known fact is that the Indian leopard is an opportunistic scavenger.
One typically does not think of these great hunters as opportunistic scavengers , but it is true. Karim and l exploited this to great effect. If you treated the flesh of a dead goat or a bullock with folidol and a leopard ate it , the effects of folidol would work quickly , either killing it , or leaving it severely weakened and close to death.
On the occasions when it was weakened , killing these leopards with a 12 bore shot-gun loaded with SG cartridge was quite uneventful. You could get quite close to them , point the shot-gun at the region where the neck meets the shoulder at point blank distance and finish them off with one SG cartridge , usually by pressing the muzzles on to their neck . My learned forum member , Red Leg uses an excellent word to describe the affair : a " compliant leopard " . For reasons that need not even be elaborated , this can hardly classify as hunting a leopard.
There was another method of killing leopards with shot-guns loaded with SG . This is by using baits. The correct English term , l am told is " leopard over bait ". In fact , the very last leopard l had killed in my life in 1995 was killed by using this method . I was using a 12 bore Beretta over-under model s686 special with a fully choked barrel (over) and a modified choke barrel ( under ) and 70 millimeter chamber. I used an SG cartridge in the lower modified choke barrel to kill it.


However , this animal was killed by using bait . It was not attempting to charge and there was no adrenaline running in it's veins . This is not hunting. This is execution in it's plainest form.

Let us now go to hunting . Karim and l had to pursue a large quantity of injured leopards into dense vegetation after they had been injured by clients with incorrect aim. Suddenly , situations change. Any professional hunter or person experienced with killing problem causing leopards will tell you that there is a massive difference between killing a leopard over bait and killing a charging leopard which has been wounded by a client and is full of adrenaline. Let me give you a small sample of what an Indian leopard is like. An Indian leopard will weigh around the ambit of 200 pounds and has muscles as hard as rocks. These are devilish creatures with extremely strong jaws. They will usually attack from behind ( but not always ) and try to get the unfortunate victim's neck and throat between it's strong jaws. A leopard is extremely cunning and vengeful. Unlike a charging Gaur which may switch targets spontaneously , the leopard will hide in the foliage and pre determine which single person to torment first. It is extremely Swift and knows how to ambush it's opponents . Once it has finished it's " work " on one victim , it will focus on the next. My respected forum member and professional hunter , IvW describes their characteristics with grotesque accuracy . Make no mistake . A leopard is very resilient .
No sensible person will use a shot-gun to hunt leopards and during my time , no one certainly did . Shot-guns , however were used by us Shikaris to pursue wounded leopards in thick vegetation. These were always leopards which had been wounded by clients and foul aiming . A shot-gun was used here in this situation . We Shikaris used to pursue those wounded leopards into extremely dense vegetation ( as can be seen in the very first picture ) . We also did use SG shot exclusively in such acts , but it will be a lie to imply that we were even remotely happy with it's performance . We were using it , because it was all we had , with us.
At 25 feet , a charge of SG shot fired at a charging leopard is pitiful. The nine pellets will penetrate the skin , but will completely flatten on the muscles of the leopard which are as hard as a rock. If you clip this distance to more than half , at say , less than ten feet , your chances of success improve fairly , but not enough to be a guarantee.

This cat was not hunted with a client but it was deemed a pest , because it had killed a child. Even though it weighed a mere 133 pounds , it was quite resilient. It took four SG cartridges to lay it low ( two from my own gun and two from my late partner , Karim Chowdhury) . The first shot was taken at seven yards and the last shot was taken at four yards. Upon cutting it open , it was discovered that an uncomfortably large amount of the SG pellets had failed to penetrate into it’s muscle. Many had connected with it’s skull , but had not penetrated into it’s brain . The pellets which did kill it , were the ones which connected with the region where the neck met the shoulder .



What about a distance of five feet ? Five feet equal sixty inches. If a person is willing to let a swift , charging dangerous leopard get within five feet of them , then they have a suicidal amount of bravery. Let us , however, for the sake of argument , assume that the shooter is holding a shot-gun loaded with SG cartridges and the leopard in in the act of springing at him. If the shooter indeed lets off a barrel’s worth of SG at a distance of five feet at the leopard’s face , his chances of killing the leopard , are significantly high . Say seven times out of ten. But there is still no guarantee. You are guaranteed to do a good deal of damage to it’s face , including probably knocking out an eye or even both eyes. But you may need to finish it off with a second cartridge quickly , preferably by placing the muzzles on it's neck.

Leopard which had attempted to spring up an elephant macchan to reach a client. It actually got pretty close before my former partner , Karim fired a barrel's worth of SG shot into his face and stopped the charge. The distance was either five feet or even slightly lesser than that. The leopard was knocked down and it's face was very bloody , having lost an eye. However , it started getting back up , before the client shot it in the head with a magnum .375 bore double barrel rifle . A subsequent cutting open revealed that all nine pellets had connected with the skull and mouth and jaw , but had failed to penetrate into the leopard's brain.

Why is it than SG shot has such unpredictable performance ? The reason is this : People think that SG cartridges are very powerful at close distances because at close distances , the pellets are concentrated and therefore work like a large mass. This is not accurate. The penetration capacity of each individual pellet into the brain of a leopard must be assessed . These are round pellets of .32 calibre. Their shape makes them unreliable performers in the field of dangerous animals .The way the head of the leopard is designed by Divine Providence , makes it the most unsuitable shape for a shooter to use SG shot on. We have killed many charging leopards by shooting them with SG cartridges repeatedly , however it certainly does not make for clean killing. Why is it that a leopard weakened with folidol or a leopard over bait , will reliably get killed by SG cartridge , but a charging leopard will not get killed by a single SG cartridge , 100 % of the time ? The answer is because of this :
When a leopard is over bait , it is unsuspecting and has no adrenaline rushing through it's veins. It is slowly moving and allows the shooter to time his shot for perfection. In such a case , the ideal region to shoot the leopard is in the area where the neck meets the shoulder.
By contrast , a charging leopard has adrenaline in it's veins and is coming towards you , at excessively high speed. It is not humanly possible for 9 SG pellets of .32 calibre to reliably penetrate into the brain of a leopard when the shooter is trying to stop a charging leopard which is coming at you head on , all the time . It may stop the charge ( still not guaranteed ) which was what my friend and Shikar partner , Karim did in 1965 to a leopard attempting to spring up on an elephant macchan. But it is not reliably going to kill it ten times out of ten. I have seen this in the field numerous times. Seven times out of ten are good odds in most circumstances . However , if these circumstances include something such as a large , imposing leopard charging at out of the bushes at you , then seven times out of ten are certainly not good enough for anybody who values self preservation .
Now that we have discussed why SG cartridges are unreliable for killing charging leopards , let us assess one very important other problem using SG cartridges for leopard. What if your tracker or your coolie is attacked by the leopard and you need to shoot the leopard ? This is not just a worst case situation . This happens a lot more frequently than people think it does . Due to the inherent nature of shot of any form , you have a risk of shooting your coolie or tracker or fellow hunter . This is completely unacceptable .

Of course , large shot has been used to kill big animals , but then again people have also become millionaires by winning lotteries. That does not mean that participating in lotteries are a reliable method of making a living.
View attachment 308650
My final Royal Bengal tiger killed in 1969 . It was done by firing both barrels of SG into the unsuspecting creature's neck region from above ( l was waiting in a tree ) . From the tree branch to the Royal Bengal tiger , the distance was less than nine feet. It's spinal column was hit. However , imagine trying to stop a charging Royal Bengal tiger which is attacking you from the front with SG cartridges . You can see where the difference is.


Sometimes , people make do with all they have . Under ideal situations ( as discussed above ) they will work. However , when hunting something as dangerous as leopard , ideal conditions are a rare luxury. Personally speaking , my favorite cartridge to use for leopards and Royal Bengal tigers was the Kynoch 12 bore Lethal Ball cartridge. These were devastatingly effective on leopards and Royal Bengal tigers at close range. Unfortunately , their manufacture had already ceased long before l began my career as a professional Shikari and l was lucky to acquire those twenty cartridges which were in an arms shop . Had l more of this type of Cartridge , l would never have used SG shot but beggars cannot be choosers. Some day , l hope that some firm restarts the manufacture of these beautiful cartridges again. I think that many hunters would enjoy them quite well.
View attachment 308651 View attachment 308652
Images of Kynoch lethal ball , kindly provided by Hoss Delgado .



Today , a good German slug projectile in a shot-gun can stop any leopard with a guarantee and it increases the chances of the Shikari returning to his loved ones to regale the tale to them.
I hope that l have not offended anyone with my article or acted authoritarian in my views. This is just how l feel on this matter.

Friend Kawshik
Please keep writing your opinion is valuable as your experience can never be repeated and there us much to learn from that experience.
I enjoy all the stories written by your self, friend Ponton and Captain Nwz