Dangerous Game Follow Up - Client and Professional Hunter roles?

[Newboomer]

On my buf hunt I had my PH and a resident PH backing me up. Nothing was said before the hunt because Lammie and I had hunted the year before and most of the safari before we went after buf. He knew my shooting and it was understood between the three of us that they would shoot only as a last resort. Luckily, it was a head on shot into the boiler room at 25-30 yds and the buf turned 90 degrees and ran. We found him dead about 75 yds away.

 

[YancyW]

As an avid 3-gun competitor times taken to go to target from arms ready in seconds is approximately 1 second among high level competitors and second shots on target with an AR15
is 0.15-0.24 seconds. Do the same drill with a 470 double and times are much higher as I've practiced it several times! Do it with a high end 375 bolt gun and initial shot is about the same as a double but second shot is 3-4x slower. With a full on charge you will be lucky to get a first shot at 20yds from any on the list and a second shot with a bolt won't happen! I've discussed this with George at Champlin and several other very experienced DG hunters and all have agreed with this assessment!
Now lets hear from those who have experienced a charge, and we can all accept that full on charges are rare but when they happen maybe all hands on deck and firing in a safe direction will likely have a better out come! Having a plan with your PH is the only way to do it safely!

This is well said. I am lucky to have access to a facility with many options to shoot moving targets, the time difference, and accuracy, between an AR and any bolt rifle is multiple times. I still believe the training for 3 gun, or any other discipline, is helpful and really the only way to replicate that type of stressful shooting.

 

[One Day...]

It has been my experience on AH as well as other blogs that with threads that are revived after 6 months or a year etc., the later commenters may not have seen older posts. In this case, there is truly not much else to say than what Red Leg said. I cannot agree more...

The hard reality is that in many cases, the armed client is more dangerous than the wounded DG, both to the PH and trackers, and to himself. If the PH wants to go alone with his trusted retinue, let him do so and do not brood over it.

I am not a PH, and do not ever pretend to be one, but I have accompanied clients on their hunt a number of times, and it can be scary enough to be around some of them in normal circumstances, with gross violations of loaded firearms safe handling rules (loading/unloading routine pointing in unsafe direction, muzzle discipline, finger on trigger, walking with rifle on shoulder off safety and pointing at the back of the PH, etc.). I am sure none of the present company fits in this category, but any pro will tell you they are out there... in droves... If in doubt, just watch private or outfitters hunt videos, including from some well known TV hosts...

Please read attentively...

 

[VertigoBE]

It has been my experience on AH as well as other blogs that with threads that are revived after 6 months or a year etc., the later commenters may not have seen older posts. In this case, there is truly not much else to say than what Red Leg said. I cannot agree more...

The hard reality is that in many cases, the armed client is more dangerous than the wounded DG, both to the PH and trackers, and to himself. If the PH wants to go alone with his trusted retinue, let him do so and do not brood over it.

I am not a PH, and do not ever pretend to be one, but I have accompanied clients on their hunt a number of times, and it can be scary enough to be around some of them in normal circumstances, with gross violations of loaded firearms safe handling rules (loading/unloading routine pointing in unsafe direction, muzzle discipline, finger on trigger, walking with rifle on shoulder off safety and pointing at the back of the PH, etc.). I am sure none of the present company fits in this category, but any pro will tell you they are out there... in droves... If in doubt, just watch private or outfitters hunt videos, including from some well known TV hosts...

Please read attentively...

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Thank you @One Day... , you are quite right that I would sometimes gloss over a multi page thread if it is quite old, however in this case I had not done so and read through everything. Indeed @Red Leg 's response was a very complete one.

My question and reason for opening this topic again was two fold. First to talk about a specific case in the roles of PH/Client, namely the immediate back-up shot on game by the PH. Not necessarily the follow-up in brush and high grass. And secondly to hear more opinions, views and ideas expressed on this sensitive topic.

It is my belief that on complicated and touchy subjects it is better to hear from many different people than from only a few.

From my short time on AH, I have come to greatly appreciate the replies, messages and ideas expressed by both yourself @One Day... and @Red Leg . So I definitely did not want to insult either of you by re-opening this topic that is perhaps 'case closed' for you. This was not my intention. Only to have more discussion on a specific type of case, as I described above and what I have seen happening on quite a few videos online.

My experience hunting in Africa is zip, zero, nothing. I still need to leave for my first Safari, planned in June. My mayor experience in hunting is six hunting trips in the past 7 years in Schotland, on red and fallow deer. In all the game I have taken I have always put matters at rest with just one trigger pull, except for the last time I went, where I had made on the last stalk of the week a less than perfect shot, whereby the animal just stayed put on its legs, unmoving, after which the stalker (PH) took the rifle from me and gave a shot himself. The feeling after this happening was not fun. I was seriously shook for a few days. I am glad however that I experienced once, what happens on a bad shot, as I was perhaps becoming a bit 'cocky'. But the fact that the stalker did the follow up instead of me... not very appreciated.

Anyway, unless someone else wants to chime in, we can put the topic at rest.

V.

 

[Red Leg]

Thank you @One Day... , you are quite right that I would sometimes gloss over a multi page thread if it is quite old, however in this case I had not done so and read through everything. Indeed @Red Leg 's response was a very complete one.

My question and reason for opening this topic again was two fold. First to talk about a specific case in the roles of PH/Client, namely the immediate back-up shot on game by the PH. Not necessarily the follow-up in brush and high grass. And secondly to hear more opinions, views and ideas expressed on this sensitive topic.

It is my belief that on complicated and touchy subjects it is better to hear from many different people than from only a few.

From my short time on AH, I have come to greatly appreciate the replies, messages and ideas expressed by both yourself @One Day... and @Red Leg . So I definitely did not want to insult either of you by re-opening this topic that is perhaps 'case closed' for you. This was not my intention. Only to have more discussion on a specific type of case, as I described above and what I have seen happening on quite a few videos online.

My experience hunting in Africa is zip, zero, nothing. I still need to leave for my first Safari, planned in June. My mayor experience in hunting is six hunting trips in the past 7 years in Schotland, on red and fallow deer. In all the game I have taken I have always put matters at rest with just one trigger pull, except for the last time I went, where I had made on the last stalk of the week a less than perfect shot, whereby the animal just stayed put on its legs, unmoving, after which the stalker (PH) took the rifle from me and gave a shot himself. The feeling after this happening was not fun. I was seriously shook for a few days. I am glad however that I experienced once, what happens on a bad shot, as I was perhaps becoming a bit 'cocky'. But the fact that the stalker did the follow up instead of me... not very appreciated.

Anyway, unless someone else wants to chime in, we can put the topic at rest.

V.

I think I more fully appreciate the specific direction of your question.

So, a couple of thoughts. On a PG hunt in most of Africa, the most lethal thing your PH will be carrying on a stalk will be the shooting sticks. Unless a client was gut shooting and crippling his way through a safari, I can not conceive of a situation where the PH would take the rifle from him to finish an animal. Badly placed shots will occasionally happen to the most experienced hunter, and the PH and tracker will do everything in their power to ensure the client has the opportunity to “sort it out.“

Hunting PG as part of a dangerous game hunt in an area where dangerous game may be encountered is a different situation, and your PH may or may not take his rifle with him when you leave the vehicle on a stalk. Even if he does, it will be to sort out problems with something large, hostile and inbound, not to shoot finishers at your target. Just won’t happen.

A stalk for dangerous game is something very different. The only thing I will add to my previous post is that every PH I have ever encountered will be doing his best to insure you have every opportunity to take your animal. I have hunted four buff with three different PH’s and none would dream of firing an insurance shot immediately after my first. I don’t believe I have a friend or acquaintance who has experienced anything different on buffalo.

Elephant are different. As noted in a previous post, the effectiveness of a brain shot will be instantly apparent. No PH will allow such a wounded animal to escape without a follow-up to the lungs or hip as quickly as he can deliver it.

Following up a potentially wounded dangerous game animal is yet another question and was the primary focus of my first post.

 

[Happy Myles]

If I happen to be hunting with a new PH, before hunting starts and while relaxing in camp I have a friendly discussion on hunting procedures we will be using including shooting, follow up shots, verbal instructions, personal habits, and so forth. Waiting until something exciting is happening and adrenalin is pumping is not the time.

 

[One Day...]

Thank you for your response VertigoBE, it indeed puts things in a different perspective. I too was thinking about wounded DG follow up, hence my above answer. I will again agree with Red Leg's faster response: the behavior from the stalker as you describe would be considered rude, not to say quite unthinkable, with the PHs whom I know.

Some may offer you to make a difficult follow up shot in a specific extra-ordinary situation. I am aware of one PH offering to do so once when a wounded PG animal was escaping on a hillside while the hunter was incapacitated after being hit pretty hard by his scope and was unable to take a follow up shot. The client declined, recovered, and was able to later do it himself after a follow up.

Conversely, I am not aware of any PH anywhere ever forcibly taking the rifle from his client's hands and shooting without the client's express consent in the circumstances you describe. I can tell you that such a behavior would be unacceptable and would result in disciplinary action at Huntershill. As a client with other outfitters, I would simply not tolerate it myself.

The bottom line is that a PH has an obligation to shoot when the client and/or party and/or himself are at imminent risk, and when a wounded animal is likely to get lost and become a danger to others, both of which almost automatically imply a DG hunt. In addition a PH may provide backup shots on DG if the client requests it. A few clients actually do, which is fine. Otherwise, a PH does not shoot.

I also agree with Happy Myles, this is exactly the type of things you want to discuss with your PH at dinner or breakfast before the hunt begins. I would also recommend that you then state your likes and dislikes, as well as your limitations if any. For example, I typically say that I am here to hunt, not to just shoot; that I do not carry a tape measure and prefer maturity and character to score; that I will not shoot from a vehicle or jumping off a vehicle (I like the old Eastern Africa rule of 500 yards from a vehicle); that I will typically not shoot an unwounded animal farther than 300 yards; that I far prefer walk, spot & stalk over drive, spot & stalk; that I prefer a field lunch to a lodge lunch; that I do not want the PH to provide follow up shots on buff unless there is a clear and imminent safety concern; that I seek a hunter-peer relationship rather than a pampered-client relationship; and that while I can still walk long and far, I cannot do it on a jog anymore as the years are catching up to me, so I sadly won't be running uphill...

A good PH will actually appreciate you helping him by giving him the "user manual" for YOUR successful hunt, as YOU define success.

 

[Newboomer]

I second most of that. My old knees and back can't take much long hiking anymore. I'm good for 2 or 3 miles depending on terrain and I don'move above a brisk walk in any situation so it's kind of a drive-spot-stalk and hike-spot-stalk combination. I'm not one to have to go back to the lodge midday. Once in the bush I like to stay there until I score or it's too dark to shoot.

Unless I have hunted with the PH, I like to set the ground rules so we each know who's going to do what in any situation, be it pg or dg. I do ask the PH to range me on most shots so I can adjust POA if necessary. Even with a 300yd point blank it gives me that little tweak when I get out to 300. I won't go beyond that unless I am dead certain of a good kill which is rare. I much prefer to test our stalking skills and get as close as I can. Much more fun.

 

[curtism1234]

I forget if over the course of the thread I've commented on this not. I will not buffalo hunt until my daughter is an adult. When the time comes, the goal will still be to get all parties home safe at the end of the day. To me, the PH shooting can play an important role in that plan. If a buffalo staggers and gives a good 2nd shot opportunity, sure, let me shoot him again as long as I am in complete control. If he immediately spins and runs off, I would want the ph to shoot. Even if you make a good shot and the ph makes another good shot, you are likely to shoot him again even if he is laying up ahead dead. So its not like the ph is killing your buffalo per say. It's team work - especially on a large and dangerous animal.

 

[Tanks]

I forget if over the course of the thread I've commented on this not. I will not buffalo hunt until my daughter is an adult. When the time comes, the goal will still be to get all parties home safe at the end of the day...

I think most have either have watched too many MS videos or over dramatizing a DG hunt. The hunter is the one with the gun choosing the time and the place to take the shot (majority of the time). Going home safe at the end of the day is a given.

You are not strolling in Compton, CA after dark.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Going home safe at the end of the day is a given.

You are not strolling in Compton, CA after dark.

Unless I misunderstood your reply, you cannot possibly be this naive.
So, all of the PH's that have died over the years, in your eyes were due to incompetents?

 

[Tanks]

Unless I misunderstood your reply, you cannot possibly be this naive.
So, all of the PH's that have died over the years, in your eyes were due to incompetents?

Nowhere on my post I implied the PHs that lost their lives were incompetent.

I would be interested to know of the number of days of Safari hunts vs PH deaths over the years what the percentage would be? I'd submit that the percentage is rather low, otherwise you wouldn't have clients rushing to hunt or PHs choosing that profession.
Yes, there is some danger of course and most of us being adrenaline junkies welcome that. I have been charged by an elephant in the past and I was the one that took the shot at 15 meters as the PH was obstructed by the tracker. The adrenaline junkie in me would love to do that again, the sane human, not so much. In my upcoming August elephant hunt I'd prefer it to be a regular hunt like most of the others.

Now, one type of hunt I will not do again is a night hunt for crop raiding elephants. It was a great experience, but once is enough.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Nowhere on my post I implied the PHs that lost their lives were incompetent.

I would be interested to know of the number of days of Safari hunts vs PH deaths over the years what the percentage would be? I'd submit that the percentage is rather low, otherwise you wouldn't have clients rushing to hunt or PHs choosing that profession.
Yes, there is some danger of course and most of us being adrenaline junkies welcome that. I have been charged by an elephant in the past and I was the one that took the shot at 15 meters as the PH was obstructed by the tracker. The adrenaline junkie in me would love to do that again, the sane human, not so much. In my upcoming August elephant hunt I'd prefer it to be a regular hunt like most of the others.

Now, one type of hunt I will not do again is a night hunt for crop raiding elephants. It was a great experience, but once is enough.

Charge rate is roughly 5% across the board so very low, as you state. However, any individual dangerous game animal has the capability and temperament to follow through with a charge, and if you don't stop it, you will be in for a bad day.

It's the unprovoked charges that concern me.

 

[Tanks]

Charge rate is roughly 5% across the board so very low, as you state. However, any individual dangerous game animal has the capability and temperament to follow through with a charge, and if you don't stop it, you will be in for a bad day.

It's the unprovoked charges that concern me.

That is why I do not believe in taking the minimum caliber with me for DG hunts. One stopper rifle might not be enough in an emergency.

 

[kidogo]

Biggest "fight" I ever had with a PH was when he said I wasn't going on a follow up. Rather long shot on a buffalo in Masailand, steep downhill angle. Not a problem, my only concern was the steep angle. The bull ran down into the drainage, the rest of the small herd ran over the ridge, so my bull was the only bull in the drainage, at least from that herd. And then we saw a tree shake and heard the bellow. I knew he's dead and want to go. The PH had been down in that drainage before and said no. He wanted me to stay up top with a radio directing him to the tree we saw shake and shoot any buffalo moving in his direction. I finally agreed and quickly regretted taking such a long shot.

But it was the right decision. I directed him to the tree, he put in an insurance shot and when I eventually got down there, I realized I'd have been no help at all down there. It was so thick it was single file all the way. My best use was where the PH told me to be. Listen to your PH.

 

[Sabattiboy]

Any PH's decline a client once they are determined to be a risk for the type of hunt?

A Cape Buffalo hunt on youtube recorded the PH having fired both barrels on a follow-up charge then was trying to find and pull shells from his back belt loops to reload his DR. Fortunately there were at least 3 shooters and the buff went down before the PH needed to shoot again.
I suppose that only become visible when watching the video afterwards. That would not build my confidence in that PH.