Dangerous Game Follow Up - Client and Professional Hunter roles?

[AES]

Also wanted to add that I’ve seen numerous videos of PHs firing almost immediately after the client on DG hunts. That to me is totally unacceptable and unprofessional.

I agree with this [in most situations]. For the same reason I do not believe that "having the animal suffer as little as possible" is anywhere close to a good reason for a PH to fire. If that were actually the case, everyone in the party should fire immediately of the hunter, into the animal's head.

 

[IvW]

10 feet on a buffalo per Mark Sullivan if I remember right.

10 ft puts you at 3m, lack of brain cells rather than excessive balls.....

Un wounded elephant, the norm in Zim would be 10 meters....wounded buffalo as soon as possible.....

 

[BeeMaa]

10 ft puts you at 3m, lack of brain cells rather than excessive balls.....

Un wounded elephant, the norm in Zim would be 10 meters....wounded buffalo as soon as possible.....

Lack of brain cells...
Sure sounds like Mark Sullivan.

 

[VertigoBE]

upon the suggestion of @375Fox, I was going to open a new thread, but it seems this has been discussed before, and would like to see a bit more of this discussion and hear more opinions.

On another thread, a hunting review, a commenter wrote this: "...I think that the pressure was on you..............with two guides ready to shoot immediately; If you had missed, you would have paid for a buff that wasn't "yours". But you came thru under pressure..."

So how does one go about making this clear to a PH, that unless there is a charge, or real possibility of the animal running too far, in case of a very bad shot, for the PH not to shoot themselves, but rather leave it up to the hunter to go through the motions and "clean up their mess". I've been watching quite a few videos of African hunts and sometimes the PH seems almost more eager to shoot themselves instead of the hunter.

Or is this something not done?

When I hunt, I want to own my successes but also my mistakes, I'll be feeling quite distraught if I mess up in any case. Having then someone else have to "do it for me" would feel like adding insult to injury.

Or do I need to check on my ego and just accept the PH shooting a split second after my own shot, or not even give me the time to work the bolt and have a second shot?

 

[Jfet]

My Rules
At the start of a hunt especially a DG hunt I tell the entire hunt team these are the rules:
1st Rule: Everyone comes home alive
2nd Rule: Everyone comes home alive and intact
I tell the PH that I have chosen him to enforce those rules.
I then tell the team, as we get on the truck for the first time, right now this hunt is a success regardless of taking an animal or not.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

My Rules
At the start of a hunt especially a DG hunt I tell the entire hunt team these are the rules:
1st Rule: Everyone comes home alive
2nd Rule: Everyone comes home alive and intact
I tell the PH that I have chosen him to enforce those rules.
I then tell the team, as we get on the truck for the first time, right now this hunt is a success regardless of taking an animal or not.

Very well put.

 

[375Fox]

upon the suggestion of @375Fox, I was going to open a new thread, but it seems this has been discussed before, and would like to see a bit more of this discussion and hear more opinions.

On another thread, a hunting review, a commenter wrote this: "...I think that the pressure was on you..............with two guides ready to shoot immediately; If you had missed, you would have paid for a buff that wasn't "yours". But you came thru under pressure..."

So how does one go about making this clear to a PH, that unless there is a charge, or real possibility of the animal running too far, in case of a very bad shot, for the PH not to shoot themselves, but rather leave it up to the hunter to go through the motions and "clean up their mess". I've been watching quite a few videos of African hunts and sometimes the PH seems almost more eager to shoot themselves instead of the hunter.

Or is this something not done?

When I hunt, I want to own my successes but also my mistakes, I'll be feeling quite distraught if I mess up in any case. Having then someone else have to "do it for me" would feel like adding insult to injury.

Or do I need to check on my ego and just accept the PH shooting a split second after my own shot, or not even give me the time to work the bolt and have a second shot?

I didn’t want to write too much on the other thread, but as I said there I’ve always felt the PH and I were working as a team and never had it detract from my hunting experience. My first cape buffalo hunt was very thick green brush, I asked my PHs to shoot too if I was only going to get one shot. My 2nd Australia buffalo was very similar situation too in very thick green brush and my guide shot as well. My next cape buffalo hunt I plan to ask the same if I will only get one shot. I’ve also had PH back me up on a giraffe to ensure it fell close to road. I don’t want a wounded animal plains game or dangerous game suffering any longer than necessary, so I appreciate PHs being willing to shoot. I’ve never had a PH want to take my shot opportunity away from me. Just have a thorough discussion with your PH before you hunt and you can find out his perspective on the topic and come to an agreement.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

On my followup we all moved together for most of the morning, but when it became obvious the wounded buff was on his way to a known water hole and the rain clouds were gathering the PH dropped me off there to take up an ambush position. They returned to the track and came across the buff shortly afterwards, down but not out and put a few finishers into him. Was I upset? Not at all, it could have gone either way and the grand old boy was put out of his misery sooner. It is all teamwork.

 

[Nhoro]

So how does one go about making this clear to a PH, that unless there is a charge, or real possibility of the animal running too far, in case of a very bad shot, for the PH not to shoot themselves, but rather leave it up to the hunter to go through the motions and "clean up their mess". I've been watching quite a few videos of African hunts and sometimes the PH seems almost more eager to shoot themselves instead of the hunter.

Or is this something not done?

When I hunt, I want to own my successes but also my mistakes, I'll be feeling quite distraught if I mess up in any case. Having then someone else have to "do it for me" would feel like adding insult to injury.

Or do I need to check on my ego and just accept the PH shooting a split second after my own shot, or not even give me the time to work the bolt and have a second shot?

Talk to your PH. Get a feel for how he (or she) likes to operate. Most don't want to shoot. And dare I say it, most will have a really good look at you with some plains game and then make a call. In my experience as an apprentice, that is what I saw. We all watched quietly, was the hunter safe ie covering people with the muzzle-then tell him to carry on an empty chamber and only load when told to etc. And all PH's would and should take a shot if the animal is going to get away wounded. So if you take a head shot on an elephant and it does not drop instantly, you can expect your PH to take a shot. Sometimes the animal is stunned and a PH will take you forward to finish the animal but often circumstances don't allow it and he will shoot.

I think you should choose your PH carefully and know his style. Ask about the area and time of year. Open bush in a flatter area will allow you (and your PH) more space and probably more shots. So your PH is less likely to have to take a shot. Early season in Zambezi Valley would be thick and the PH more inclined to back up quickly.

So choose wisely for the PH/area/time of year that you gives you the best chance of shooting the animal yourself and then trust your PH to shoot if he feels that he needs to.

 

[Tanks]

.... I've been watching quite a few videos of African hunts and sometimes the PH seems almost more eager to shoot themselves instead of the hunter.

To be honest I would indeed prefer the PH shoots himself rather than I.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Let me tell a short story many years ago I had a wonderful client. He had wounded a nice buff. The buff was in almost head high grass. Walking side by side was not a good option. Since I had hunted this gentleman several times but not on DG. I knew he was "quick on the trigger" and I was a bit concerned as we entered the grass. We had only gone a couple of meters and suddenly I was hit with the worse pain I have ever experienced and literally knocked off of my feet. He had fired his .378 Weatherby fitted with muzzle brake inches from my right ear. As a PH what good was I or my .470 to anyone laying on the ground kicking and maybe screaming?

After regaining my feet we found the buff about 10 meters off to one side of us. The client had "thought" he saw something. Somehow his muzzle brake disappeared shortly there after? After that hunt he sold his Weatherby and bought a Model 70 in .375 H&H. He remained a good friend until his death several years later.

Every follow up is a different situation, one that should be talked about in advance, but when the time comes will probably change.

 

[Jon Glajchen]

I believe that this table indicates the speed of the animal and response time that a hunter/PH will have
when charged by dangerous game.

The PH clearly has to take control and eliminate as much risk as possible to both him and his client!

 

[Surgeon1]

I believe that this table indicates the speed of the animal and response time that a hunter/PH will have
when charged by dangerous game.

The PH clearly has to take control and eliminate as much risk as possible to both him and his client!

View attachment 394251

As an avid 3-gun competitor times taken to go to target from arms ready in seconds is approximately 1 second among high level competitors and second shots on target with an AR15
is 0.15-0.24 seconds. Do the same drill with a 470 double and times are much higher as I've practiced it several times! Do it with a high end 375 bolt gun and initial shot is about the same as a double but second shot is 3-4x slower. With a full on charge you will be lucky to get a first shot at 20yds from any on the list and a second shot with a bolt won't happen! I've discussed this with George at Champlin and several other very experienced DG hunters and all have agreed with this assessment!
Now lets hear from those who have experienced a charge, and we can all accept that full on charges are rare but when they happen maybe all hands on deck and firing in a safe direction will likely have a better out come! Having a plan with your PH is the only way to do it safely!

 

[Sarg]

This is a VERY touchy subject & can't really be talked out in written form on a forum, would need a conference to do it justice !

Just too many different circumstances, from habitat, time of year, which animal, where & degree of wounding & not the least the (one of the main issues) Client Hunter & to a lesser extent his rifle & how he handles it !

I think a book could be written on this subject, I know I could do a few chapters myself but I have put a lot of them out of my mind so as to sleep at night !

I don't think that chart is much chop either, again depends on terrain, undergrowth or lack of & one of the main points how is the wound effecting our animals charging Killing/Maiming ability ?

 

[IvW]

Hi All, Touchy subject-Please don't lay into PH's or clients, but how do you guys see the roles of client and PH in a wounded dangerous game animal follow up?

My thoughts are that a clients role is to finish what he started. He should stand beside the PH and attempt to kill the animal as fast as possible. However, he needs to respect the PH should be in control of the follow up and follow his instructions.

PH- He is responsible to ensure the animal is put out of its misery as quickly as possible. He has the experience and knowledge to position his client in the safest position while still being able to safely take shots. Usually a PH will take any shots presented to him as they appear.

You here of PH's telling clients to wait in the car or clients refusing to let the PH shoot their animal, I guess I am just trying to find middle ground. What do you guys think ?

No real middle ground to be honest.

Has the client and PH hunted together before? Does the PH trust the abilities of the client?

What DG animal has been wounded? What was the initial first shot placement?
What is the terrain like?
Following up on a wounded leopard is vastly different from following up a wounded elephant bull or buffalo.

I have hunted with obese clients who cannot even get off the back of the Land Cruiser without assistance so how can I allow him to accompany me on a follow up of a wounded DG animal?

Yes sh..t happens but the PH is responsible, not only if the client screws up and wounds an animal but he is ultimately also responsible for his client as well as anybody elses safety.....

Simple as that....

Best to avoid this situation, practice be in shape and do not pull the trigger if you are not sure of the shot placement....

If you do not do your part do not get pissed off if you cannot be part of the follow up....the PH responsibilty goes way deeper than your first shot, if you have done your part and you are competent you will probably be on the follow up but if your performance is sub standard or you cannot keep up you should not....it places too much pressure on the PH and he will be too worried about your well being which will put him and the rest of the crew under unneccasary pressure irrespective of who is paying the bill....

 

[jeff]

I talked to several Ph's prior to my buffalo hunt and it was obvious that one was terrified of buffalo and two others said they would only shoot if someone was in immediate danger. I went with one of the later and had a great hunt with a PH who respected buffalo but wasn't eager to shoot my buffalo.

 

[1dirthawker]

re back up shooting:

in SA, i talked to my PH ahead of time, (he had seen me shoot plains game) and told him to shoot if he thought the cape buffalo needed another bullet. i trusted him enough to protect me, guide me, etc. so i was ok with his decision on back up shooting. i told him i thought it most important that everyone went home safe. turns out, at 35 yards, i shot the bull twice with a 450-400, broken shoulder, hip and heart shot...but bull was heading toward a ravine, and the PH took a single shot with his 416 rigby (solid) and the bull crumpled. he tried to apologize a minute or so after ward, i told him we had already agreed to my being ok with his judgement on shooting and that don't apologize for doing the right thing. i did tease him about gut shooting the bull tho, turns out his 400 gr solid traversed the bull and ended up going thru the bulls heart and stopped in the off shoulder. i had to eat a little crow then. great shooting!

i have been involved with only 2 wounded brown bears. the first, there was another guide with us, joel (a good friend) we took turns trailing the blood trail thru the alders etc (the next day) i was off to the side 10-15 yards looking ahead for the bear, joel would trail. after a bit, we would switch positions. the hunter was behind us with a loaded magazine, but NO bullet in the chamber. after a long trailing job, the client and i ended up in a bit of a shoot out at 13 yards from the bear with joel guiding us in to it from across the canyon (225 yards away) the client seemed ok with the way it worked out.

the 2nd bear was a very large boar, (over 9 ft) the next day we went out looking for it. in this scenario, there were 4 guides myself and 3 others (it was the end of the hunt and other hunters had tagged out) and the client. once we relocated the blood trail about 300 yards from where it was initially shot, we left the client and our packs at a clearing and proceeded, guides only. this was no disrespect to the hunter, but we had plenty of guns, knew each other, and did not need another guy in an alder thicket with a loaded 375 with us. we were able to track it for another 400 yards or so, then lost all blood and sign. we lost that bear. i would sure have like having one of those trackers from africa with us, would have been interesting to see if we could have found it, i am sure there tracking skills are many levels above mine.

our backup policy is: keep the bear anchored where it is (if it is in middle of the clearing is different) and we will NOT shoot. if the bear gets headed to the brush, we are going to be shooting with the hunter. now, i adhered to that policy and that ended up with the first bear in this post. i did not shoot until it was in the alders, then emptied my gun with no hits,

having a stranger to you, with a loaded elephant gun, behind you, in a stressful follow up situation is a nerve wracking thing. i have been close to bears (sow with cubs) and the hunter is saying, should i load up!, should i load up!? almost always, i say "not yet". in closing with a downed or hard hit bear i grab my hunters shoulder and push/guide him to where i want him to shoot from and tell him to shoot again. that way, i am safely behind his gun.

i have relatively little experience with wounded animals of any kind in the brush. i would ALWAYS defer to the PH. that IS why you are hunting with/paying him. let him do his job.

 

[jdemocko]

I always told my PH to do a quick assessment of the shot and be ready. If he thinks the shot is marginal and we are in for a goat rodeo, shoot away. If he sees it is a good mortal shot, hold off. So far this has worked out well.

 

[revturbo9967]

Somewhat on topic, how many of the PHs and hunters who have hunter DG, have lost a wounded one? Most if not all of us have wounded and lost game at some point in our lives, its a part of hunting, but I'm curious to how many have lost a DG animal after a wounding shot. I believe the number is very very low.

 

[Tanks]

DG is shot a lot closer. Also, big difference between "taking a chance" on a < $1K trophy fee animal and a $15K or more trophy fee animal.