An Edwardian Time Capsule: Unpacking A 1905 .450 No. 2 Double Rifle

[Hornedfrogbbq]

What a read.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Lady Constance was a “interesting” lady. At 20-nothing years old she was hanging out in the USA with Wild Bill, shooting, lassoing, rodeo, etc. She also was a famous dancer that dressed in the Greek/Roman style which was just fine when she performed for the King at court, but not so well-received when she opened in London and NYC dancing bear foot in sheer gowns for the commoners. The US press reported she was banned from court by the King due to her tendencies, but that was never verified in European press, rather just in the US press to sell tickets to her performances. She was well acquainted with Wild Bill when she dragged her husband over to the US tour after their marriage.

She also was a fan of nudism for kids to be unconstrained (translation, probably a bit of a free spirit herself). She also road into London in a man’s saddle which was not too popular with the side-saddle aristocratic ladies. She was obsessed with natural beauty and even mused about eugenics and all other taboo subjects of the modern era that were popular amongst the aristocracy of the Edwardian era.

Be careful when your wife recommends an on foot lion safari for a honeymoon boys. She’ll out shoot you and put you to shame.

She sounds like Lola Montez

 

[franzfmdavis]

Beautiful gun! Congratulations and thanks for the fascinating post about it!

 

[93marlin]

Beautiful rifle! A great find and an even greater history to go with it!!

 

[One Day...]

Always wanted to ask I have a 450 NE that shoots a 480 grain bullet as well as the 450#2. What are the differences between these two calibers please?

The 450NE had problems when made, namely crappy brass and thin rims. Each maker started modifying the rim thickness to compensate creating a bunch of non-standard one-offs. They also struggled, just as the 450-400, with stuck cases under tropical conditions.

The 450 #2 was designed to resolve the problems of the other 450s that existed in the early 20th century. Way lower service pressure. Check. Longer case to ease smooth loading. Check. Thicker rim to ensure the brass extracts. Check. Thicker brass overall to handle pressure increases in the tropics. Check.

Overall, Eley knocked it out of the park with the 450 #2. It also never had a non-nitro black powder express version, so it would be impossible to have an over-pressure snafu by stuffing a nitro load into a black powder express barrel.

All the genius would have resulted in the ultimate double rifle caliber because everything about the #2 was glowing, including endorsements from Taylor, Perceval, and Selous. The only problem were the ungrateful natives trying to create insurrection across the empire at the time. The ban of .450 caliber sporting arms killed the #2 before it could become ubiquitous. As a result, Joseph Lang’s .470NE took over both due to the ban on 450s and the brilliance of Lang to make his 470NE “open source” so anyone could build a rifle on his patented cartridge free of royalty.

I do not have a 450 3 ¼ NE (straight wall) nor a 500/450 3 ¼ NE (bottle neck) to show, but here is a visual between a .470 NE and a .450 #2.

.470 NE at top, .450 #2 at bottom. The .470 looks very much like the 500/450 3 ¼ NE, except necked up, so the pic serves as a representative comparison between .450 #2 and 500/450 3 ¼ NE (and .500/.465 NE).

Observe the different brass length and the different brass shape, which allowed the #2 to have greater cordite "spaghettis" capacity to the neck while having thicker brass, and observe the incredible thickness of the rim of the .450 #2.

Cordite "spaghettis" loaded very differently from todays' powders.

The entire purpose was indeed to address stuck brass in rifles with the 450 3 ¼ NE, a shorter, thin straight walls cartridge, following high pressure shots due to the cordite being tightly packed in the shorter 450 3 ¼ NE brass, and due to the loads cooking in the African sun.

Through both higher brass volume that allowed lower pressure, and thicker brass, the .450 #2 developed a reputation of extreme reliability.

I know less than I should about Harry Selby’s guns because he never wrote a book. Sparse info comes from articles written about the legend rather than his own words. All I know is he loved his 416 Rigby built on a standard length action, an uncommon and very complicated endeavor to manufacture.

My knowledge I believe came from Ruark's Horn of The Hunter

This is my recollection too



A very long time ago, I had a lovely pre WW II .450 #2 by Jules Bury, a renowned Liege, Belgium gun maker, although not one of the most famous. I loved it, but finding ammo for it became impossible, and when they came, the early A Square loads were problematic. The "Monolithic Solids" made of naval bronze were too hard for older barrels and "pushed the rifling on the outside of the barrel", and their "Lion Load" were explosively too frangible. The "Dead Tough" were OK, but Art Alphin insisted on loading 465 gr bullets, which did not help with regulation. I ended up selling the rifle to George Caswell of Champlin Firearms fame, who wanted it more than me...

I still have a few boxes of A Square ammo in my collection.

40 years ago, a much younger One Day... and his .450 #2

 

[Rimbaud]

Fascinating glimpse into the past. The original owner has a doomed, gallant look. How did you come to know about the rifle?

 

[rookhawk]

Fascinating glimpse into the past. The original owner has a doomed, gallant look. How did you come to know about the rifle?

Like all provenance, it starts with a letter from the maker. That gives you the name of the original owner, its configuration, and date of delivery. Then you must do the research on their accolades and reconcile the dates, their locations, and what you can observe from the rifle.

 

[BC Tal]

Beautiful rifle and a great story.

 

[Adam Stevens]

I searched for years for the right .450 NE. I love the straight wall calibers.

But then the right .450 no2 showed up so I snatched it up

 

[Greffdog]

Functional art and history. Looking forward to hearing about the hunt this is destined for. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Wyfox]

Beautiful score! How did you find it?
Look forward to seeing pics of it being used as intended.

 

[JvW]

Lovely rifle. Webley screw-grip boxlock action as well. The best.

 

[DWB]

Epic!!!! Ian Nyschens was a big user and fan of the 450#2.

I have a dummy round laying on my office desk and often have people gasping at the gigantic cigar sized round... pipe dream for one day!

 

[AZDAVE]

Congratulations!!! That is a stunning and special double. In 450 N02 to boot!

I am very happy for you.

What is the first hunt you plan with it?

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Lovely piece. And the rifle looks good too. Gotta love a gal who likes to hunt.

 

[rookhawk]

@GeorgeGibbs505 I think you have another Lady Constance and Sir Stewart-Richardson story and sporting arm? Would you care to share with the group?

 

[rookhawk]

Congratulations!!! That is a stunning and special double. In 450 N02 to boot!

I am very happy for you.

What is the first hunt you plan with it?

It depends. I have a Heym 470NE and I have the 450#2 Lancaster. If elephant, I’ll probably use the Heym, if Buffalo or Hippo, I’ll probably use the Lancaster.

 

[rookhawk]

I asked AI which would have better penetration, the 450 #2 Nitro Express shooting a 480gr bullet at 2150fps or a 470NE shooting a 500gr bullet at 2150fps.

It’s response:

Despite being heavier, the 500gr .470" bullet has a slightly lower sectional density than the 480gr .458" due to its wider diameter. Because penetration—especially for solids—is more influenced by sectional density than by mass alone, the 480gr .458" bullet would likely have slightly better penetration at equal velocity and construction.

However, the difference is marginal—about 1.3% in SD—and in real-world use (bone, angle, bullet design variations), it may not be practically noticeable unless you're on the edge of performance envelopes.

My impression:

Since the 2150fps is actually fantasy in double rifles, you’d think they were both going to be at a slightly lower velocity. However, the #2 fantasy velocity in the old data is faster at 2175fps which suggests it may regulate at a bit faster speed than a 470NE. (E.g. 2070fps versus maybe 2090-2100fps)

Net result:

I can understand why the 450 #2 NE 3.5” was so popular at the time. It’s doing 470NE level work at considerably less felt recoil. It’s amazing how a law in 1907 thwarted the rise of the 450 caliber rifles and pushed the 470 to the forefront.

 

[rookhawk]

I just asked AI which would fair better assuming the #2 operates at 25fps faster speed than a 470NE. It answered:

Conclusion:​

With the 480gr gaining a 25 fps edge, the balance is even tighter. But momentum now slightly favors the 500gr .474", enough that:

In homogeneous soft tissue, the 480gr .458” likely still penetrates slightly deeper due to better SD.

Against heavy bone or dense muscle, the 500gr .474” could outperform due to higher momentum and frontal resistance.

---

Bottom Line:​

A 25 fps speed advantage doesn’t fully overcome the mass and momentum edge of the 500gr bullet. While SD still leans to the .458", real-world performance might now tip very slightly toward the 500gr .474" for deep, straight-line penetration, especially in tougher mediums.

But again—the differences are subtle. Both would be among the best-penetrating dangerous game loads available.

 

[GeorgeGibbs505]

Here’s a Rigby 303 single shot that was made for Lady Constance Mackenzie, the rifle was finished 1900, would be great to know where all she took it. She hunted on the King ranch in Texas and in India and Africa. It’s been back to Africa by a previous owner.