505 gibbs load suggestion

PHOENIX PHIL

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Hey you guys it is Doctari here.
I still carry my .505 every day here in the Kruger Park and have just used it to get my advanced rifle handling ticket so it is legal to do so. It takes about 20 blows to pass so that is always a wake-up call!
I shot three buff with the first Kilimanjaro Doctari .505 ( a copy of mine) in Zim in 2012. Tested 600 grn North Fork Cup Nosed Solids at 2140 fps. Shot two old bulls with them and had two one shot kills. The third was shot with 600 grn Woodleigh PP and had some problems.
From side-on the CNS's shot right through but the wound channels were big enough to drop a gold ball through!
To test the penetration on CNS to see if they were ok for back-up shots I set up a dead bull on his chest and shot him next to his tail from 30 m with a CNS - so angled to pass through the rumen. I recovered the bullet when I took his lungs out, it was in the very front of his chest cavity and there was rumen content all the way through the lungs - sucked in by the CNS as it penetrated through the lungs.
There is always a dilemma as to what to use with buff - but since using the 600 grn CNS it would be my choice for the first and any backing shots required - but with the provisor that it will invariably exit from side-on. As I only hunt old lone bulls or dagga boys, this is not usually a problem - I would however be very cautious of using these bullets in a herd situation.
600 grainers at 2150 shift the .505 up a gear that is for sure.
My carry load here in the KNP is 600 grn Dzombo's at 2100 fps. I can give you my load data if you e-mail me.
Hope this helps - Doctari

Doctari,

Welcome to AH, I hope you will visit us often. That is most impressive performance by the North Fork CNS!

Have you had any experience with Cutting Edge Bullets?
 

doctari505

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You have asked me a whole bunch of questions - so here goes.
Since moving up to 600 grainers in my .505 I have never gone back to 525's. The difference is remarkable. and I think this can be explained by the math.
I'm a great believer in the influence and importance of sectional density when it comes to terminal ballistic performance on the pachyderms. It we look at the most successful 'big game' bullets used in Africa - the 500 grn .458, 410 grn .416 and 400 grn of the .450/400's they all have similar properties - SD's of .341, .338 and .338 respectively, and when all are shot at about 2150 fps they are all proven killers of the pachyderms.
It long bothered me that the 525 grn .505 has a SD of only .294 despite the fact that I used these bullets to kill many buffalo and some elephants. When I acquired my .505 it came with 300 original Gibbs 525 grn nickel jacketed solids made in 1936 which I re-primed after some classic hang fires and I used these bullets for the next 20 yrs. On buff I'm sure they all tumbled because the knockdown effect was truly impressive but on a few elephant they failed - the jackets were to thin. 525 grn Woodleigh SP worked well on buff expanding to the size of a 5 Rand coin and the solids were OK but when 600 grainers became available (Dzombo's) the difference in penetration was so significant and I never went back to 525's. I put this down to a better SD (.334) and more momentum. 2150 fps was plenty fast enough and OK to shoot - recoil wise.
I got Ken Stewart to make me some on his excellent bonded core Hi-Performers in 600 grain and they were very good as well. I'm sure the jackets on the 600 grn Woodleigh PP's I used in Zim in 2012 were too thin - they broke up on buff shoulder bones, and I was not happy with their performance.
Regarding Cutting Edge safari raptors we have some in .416 and .458 to try but to be honest the concept of the petals breaking off worries me when used on buffalo as I'm not too sure in my own mind when this happens. Most (about 80%) of shots at buff are from the frontal angles and the frontal chest skin which is loose and supple and an inch thick is a serious obstacle obstacle for any bullet, so is the point of the shoulder which is a big piece of pretty solid bone. I have always believed an expanding bullet should stay together and not loose too much weight, and this is exactly what these bullets do.
My game ranger friend here in the KNP is waiting for the opportunity to shoot a buff with a 500 grn .458 Safari Raptor and I'll hopefully get the opportunity to see what the effect was. We also plan to shoot a wildebeest with a 400 grn .416 one which I will also autopsy. The CEB solid looks a very nice shape and design for a FNS. Here in the KNP the Dzombo FNS is king - 475 grn .458's for trail guides but 600 grain .458's (at 2150 from .450 Rigbys) is the bullet of choice for elephant control. The 600 grain .458 FNS's are giving full body length penetration on big bulls! Front to back or back to front - the effect is the same - from one end to the other in a straight line which is quite remarkable - and it all boils down to SD once again, and a good momentum value.
I have the highest regard for both the Barnes TSX and the Swift A-Frame. I see no reason why a 525 grn TSX will not work very well on a buff but I would not shoot it too fast just in case it comes out the other side of a side-on one - 2150 to 2200 fps will be plenty fast enough. The 570 A-Fame will also work well at about 2100 to 2150.
The North Fork SP is really proving itself here in the KNP - for problem buffalo, 550 grain .458's at 2175 fps (again from .450 Rigby's) is the buff bullet of choice. If I could get hold of 600 grain NF SP's I would use them without hesitation on buffalo.
But I'm so impressed with the NF CNS that this is what I would use if I get to hunt another buff. Here in the KNP this is the buff bullet of choice for a .450 NE as well - 500 grainer at 2200 fps from a Heym double.
Hope this answers some of your questions. Doctari
 

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thanks for the abundance of information!

my personal hunting philosophy has always been "two holes are better then one" so a complete pass threw is usually my goal when hunting in North America. from this stand point the 600gr cup point solid is very appealing. however im new to hunting herd animals and here in the states if my bullet passes threw a deer it will bury itself in a tree or the dirt so its not normally an issue. im concerned that the 600gr cup point solid would too easily pass threw a buffalo, threw some heavy bush, and into an animal I didn't know was there. its from this stand point that I take a serious look at the Woodleigh 525gr SP at 2150fps or perhaps the 525gr A-frame at 2200fps. ill talk with my PH about what kind of shooting situation I should expect before making my final bullet choice.

for elephant my choice is much easier with the 600gr North Fork flat nosed solid loaded to 2150fps.

thank you
-Matt
 

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You have asked me a whole bunch of questions - so here goes.
Since moving up to 600 grainers in my .505 I have never gone back to 525's. The difference is remarkable. and I think this can be explained by the math.
I'm a great believer in the influence and importance of sectional density when it comes to terminal ballistic performance on the pachyderms. It we look at the most successful 'big game' bullets used in Africa - the 500 grn .458, 410 grn .416 and 400 grn of the .450/400's they all have similar properties - SD's of .341, .338 and .338 respectively, and when all are shot at about 2150 fps they are all proven killers of the pachyderms.
It long bothered me that the 525 grn .505 has a SD of only .294 despite the fact that I used these bullets to kill many buffalo and some elephants. When I acquired my .505 it came with 300 original Gibbs 525 grn nickel jacketed solids made in 1936 which I re-primed after some classic hang fires and I used these bullets for the next 20 yrs. On buff I'm sure they all tumbled because the knockdown effect was truly impressive but on a few elephant they failed - the jackets were to thin. 525 grn Woodleigh SP worked well on buff expanding to the size of a 5 Rand coin and the solids were OK but when 600 grainers became available (Dzombo's) the difference in penetration was so significant and I never went back to 525's. I put this down to a better SD (.334) and more momentum. 2150 fps was plenty fast enough and OK to shoot - recoil wise.
I got Ken Stewart to make me some on his excellent bonded core Hi-Performers in 600 grain and they were very good as well. I'm sure the jackets on the 600 grn Woodleigh PP's I used in Zim in 2012 were too thin - they broke up on buff shoulder bones, and I was not happy with their performance.
Regarding Cutting Edge safari raptors we have some in .416 and .458 to try but to be honest the concept of the petals breaking off worries me when used on buffalo as I'm not too sure in my own mind when this happens. Most (about 80%) of shots at buff are from the frontal angles and the frontal chest skin which is loose and supple and an inch thick is a serious obstacle obstacle for any bullet, so is the point of the shoulder which is a big piece of pretty solid bone. I have always believed an expanding bullet should stay together and not loose too much weight, and this is exactly what these bullets do.
My game ranger friend here in the KNP is waiting for the opportunity to shoot a buff with a 500 grn .458 Safari Raptor and I'll hopefully get the opportunity to see what the effect was. We also plan to shoot a wildebeest with a 400 grn .416 one which I will also autopsy. The CEB solid looks a very nice shape and design for a FNS. Here in the KNP the Dzombo FNS is king - 475 grn .458's for trail guides but 600 grain .458's (at 2150 from .450 Rigbys) is the bullet of choice for elephant control. The 600 grain .458 FNS's are giving full body length penetration on big bulls! Front to back or back to front - the effect is the same - from one end to the other in a straight line which is quite remarkable - and it all boils down to SD once again, and a good momentum value.
I have the highest regard for both the Barnes TSX and the Swift A-Frame. I see no reason why a 525 grn TSX will not work very well on a buff but I would not shoot it too fast just in case it comes out the other side of a side-on one - 2150 to 2200 fps will be plenty fast enough. The 570 A-Fame will also work well at about 2100 to 2150.
The North Fork SP is really proving itself here in the KNP - for problem buffalo, 550 grain .458's at 2175 fps (again from .450 Rigby's) is the buff bullet of choice. If I could get hold of 600 grain NF SP's I would use them without hesitation on buffalo.
But I'm so impressed with the NF CNS that this is what I would use if I get to hunt another buff. Here in the KNP this is the buff bullet of choice for a .450 NE as well - 500 grainer at 2200 fps from a Heym double.
Hope this answers some of your questions. Doctari

Excellent information Doctari,

Your extensive experience in the field is worth more than its weight in gold to us occasional safari clients, and we thank you for sharing it with us.

Here in the USA we have heaps of rifles and not much game larger than deer, and no thick skinned game at all.

There in Africa you have plenty of truly large game but, rifles are not exactly falling from the sky.

Too bad both are not plentiful in one place!

On another note, if you happen to run into Ranger or Warden (I do not fully understand the difference) Richard Sowry there in KNP, please tell him Paul Ard from Alaska said "Hallo".

Not likely he will remember my name but very likely he will remember my rifle - it was an Army & Navy hammer double in .450 No2 that he seemed to enjoy looking at.

NNTR

Cheers,
Velo Dog.
 

doctari505

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Good morning Velo Dog.
It is indeed a small world. Richard Sowry is my good friend!
I now head up the Guiding & Sustainable Utilization Department at the Southern African Wildlife College and Richard's wife Theresa is the college's CEO which makes her my boss!
In fact my wife and I will be 'house sitting' or better 'dog sitting for the Sowry's tonight. They live about 30 minutes from the college and where we we live. He has a whole tribe of dogs which need looking after (and protection from the leopards) so we do this for them when they're away.
Richard owned a .450 NE Army & Navy for a while so maybe it was yours - in fact he used it a lot (too much in fact) and when it broke a hammer he lost a bit of confidence in it so he sold it and he now has a lovely new Heym in the same caliber.
Get hold of the latest issue of Sports Afield. It contains an article of mine on a competition I thought up and held here at the SAWC - called the Omelet Challenge - to see who could be the first to hit a domestic chicken egg with our big bore carry rifles. Standing freehand shots at a single egg suspended from a piece of fishing line. We started at 50 m and Richard took the money when he broke the egg at 40 m - with this Heym and a 500 grainer at 2200! Very effective indeed! I was able to vaporize one at 35 paces with my .505 and a 600 grainer at 2140 - even more impressive! Richard uses his Heym a lot in the course of his game ranger duties so he is now really good with. I'll pass your salaams on to him.
 

doctari505

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Hi again Matt.
I have now lost three friends to buffalo - one of which was from a cow which was wounded when his shot (with a .375 H&H Solid) passed right through the bull he was aiming at and hit an unseen cow behind. The cow got him from out of nowhere when he was following the bulls blood trail. This was right in the early stages of my hunting career and the incident is never been far from my mind whenever I'm hunting buffalo. So I know only to well what you are saying.
So yes, it is very important to know how your bullet will perform and what it will be expected to do. If you know a bullet will exit, then never take a shot if you cannot be 100% certain that there is nothing behind your target animal.
I do not believe in hunting the herds - much prefer to hunt old lone bulls or small groups of them so it is usually not a problem if the bullet exits from the side-on position.
The reason I was testing the 600 grain NF CNS's was from a PH's perspective to see how they would perform for back-up shots. Such shots are usually taken from the rearward angles and in such instances the voluminous rumen and its putty-like content usually gets in the way. I have recovered too many expanded soft points from rumen content to know that from the rear, a soft point is not the best bullet option for buffalo, regardless of caliber, weight or bullet make. In my opinion the CNS is the best compromise. They make bigger holes than flat nosed solids and penetrate a whole lot better than expanded soft points from the rearward angles. If you go the 525 grn Woodleigh or A-Frame route I would suggest you also have a few cartridges on hand suitable for back-up shots. Because they make bigger holes than solids and still penetrate deeply, I'm of the opinion that CNS are the ideal buffalo back-up shot bullet.
Remember, about 80% of shots at buffalo are taken from the frontal angles - because you need a buff to look at you so you can evaluate his spread and boss. Often the shoulder joint is the aiming point (because the top of the heart and all the 'plumbing' is at that level). It takes a really good bullet to break these massive bones, stay in one piece and still make it into the boiler room.
Where I now live, I get to work in close co-operation with the rangers who do lots of problem animal control. We test lots of different bullets on all the big stuff and it is not only my opinion but also of those who put their lives on the line in the course of their duties that the CNS is probably the ideal buffalo bullet because it is the best option from any angle. Hope all this makes sense.
 

matt85

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I have had a discussion with my PH as to the type of hunting I should expect and he confirmed that we will be taking older animals away from the herd. with this concern gone and your strong opinion of the bullet I see no reason not to use it. thank you for helping me decide on a proper projectile!

next I will start playing with loads, powder is very limited in the states these days so im limited to what I got for the most part. at the moment I have H4895, IMR 4064, IMR 4350, and IMR 7828 SSC so I think I should be ok. North Fork recommended I try 125gr of IMR 4350 and 121gr of H4831SC. while I will give North Forks loads a try I would really like to try out some loads using faster powder like H4895.

do you have any load suggestions for the 600gr CNS?

thank you
-Matt
 

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Good morning Velo Dog.
It is indeed a small world. Richard Sowry is my good friend!
I now head up the Guiding & Sustainable Utilization Department at the Southern African Wildlife College and Richard's wife Theresa is the college's CEO which makes her my boss!
In fact my wife and I will be 'house sitting' or better 'dog sitting for the Sowry's tonight. They live about 30 minutes from the college and where we we live. He has a whole tribe of dogs which need looking after (and protection from the leopards) so we do this for them when they're away.
Richard owned a .450 NE Army & Navy for a while so maybe it was yours - in fact he used it a lot (too much in fact) and when it broke a hammer he lost a bit of confidence in it so he sold it and he now has a lovely new Heym in the same caliber.
Get hold of the latest issue of Sports Afield. It contains an article of mine on a competition I thought up and held here at the SAWC - called the Omelet Challenge - to see who could be the first to hit a domestic chicken egg with our big bore carry rifles. Standing freehand shots at a single egg suspended from a piece of fishing line. We started at 50 m and Richard took the money when he broke the egg at 40 m - with this Heym and a 500 grainer at 2200! Very effective indeed! I was able to vaporize one at 35 paces with my .505 and a 600 grainer at 2140 - even more impressive! Richard uses his Heym a lot in the course of his game ranger duties so he is now really good with. I'll pass your salaams on to him.

Hello again Doctari505,

Yes it is a small world these days.

My wife, myself, one of my hunting friends and his wife had spent a day with Richard Sowry, after being introduced to him by a mutual friend, Hannes Swannepoel - a local PH there in Limpopo area who, visits Alaska here each January.

We also met Richard's lovely wife, Theresa, when she arrived home from work (we likewise met their menagerie of miscellaneous honds).

Hannes and Richard either went to college together or, to PH School together or, they worked together in The KNP when Hannes was working there as a Game Warden, 15 or 20 years ago.

I do not recall the exact details but they are friends.

Do you also know Hannes Swanepoel?

I vouch for him, he is a good man.

Sorry to hear of Richard's double rifle failing.

I had examined that rifle and enjoyed it but, it was not the one I sold.

Mine was an exposed hammer/Jones under lever, coincidentally also marked A&N-London, but rather in caliber .450 No2 NE 3.5" and Richard's was a box lock/internal hammer model, caliber .450 NE straight, AKA the .450 NE 3.25" Rigby caliber.

His was worth about twice what my rifle was worth.

Since then, I also have bought a used Heym (great minds think alike) but mine is a .458 Winchester calibre.

I know that is a bum cartridge for a double but I saved $4,000.US compared to the same used rifle in .450/.400 3" which, I would have preferred.

So far, my .458 is regulating like an H&H plus ejecting the empties like a volcano (I shoot it often, as I live quite near a rifle range).

In parting, I will in fact find a copy of the latest Sports Afield and I will read your article, yours are the best.

What any of this has to do with loads for the .505 Gibbs, I've no idea.

I do not even own a .505, (my heavy repeater is a .500 Jeffery).

Therefore, I apologize for ripping off this thread.

Kind Regards,
Velo Dog.
 
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matt85

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What any of this has to do with loads for the .505 Gibbs, I've no idea.
I do not even own a .505, (my heavy repeater is a .500 Jeffery).
Therefore, I apologize for ripping off this thread.
no worries Velo Dog, you are always welcome in my threads. (y)

-matt
 

Velo Dog

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Hey again Matt85,

Thanks for that "get out of jail free card", I appreciate it, I really do.

Again, you are always welcome at my camp fire, mi amigo.

Likewise, if you ever make it up to Anchorage, please let me know.

I will buy you a Highland Single Malt Scotch (Oban) in The Safari Bar.

We can discuss the finer points of double rifles and magnum Mausers, etc.

Kind Regards,
Velo Dog.
 
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doctari505

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Matt - the load I used in Zimbabwe was 600 grn NF CNS's and 121 grns H 4831 ahead of Federal 215 primers, Norma cases. These loads were developed by myself in Texas in January (so it was quite cold) and they gave me a consistent 2140 fps from the 25 " barrel of the no. 1 Doctari Kilimanjaro .505.
Given the performance I subsequently experienced with these bullets I reckon 2100 would be plenty fast enough. Put in the right place - the top of the heart, or high through the top of the lungs just behind the shoulder, I got two one shot kills with this combination on nice old bulls. I know you're asking about sight options - I used a Aimpoint Hunter and found it fantastic. At buff shooting distances I could place my shots within an inch of where I wanted them. email me at doctari505@gmail.com and I send you some photos of what I'm talking about.
 

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does standard H4831 work or did you need to use the short cut stuff?

thanks
-matt
 

bassasdaindia

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Matt , I have been following this thread or your 505 Gibbs threads closely , please explain why you have chosen to go for a 505 Gibbs when calibers like 416 Rigby or 404 Jeff firing 400g bullets are easier and more comfortable to shoot . And these calibers are adequate for large and dangerous game as well as offer IMHO more and better options for smaller game on an African safari.

Apologies in advance for the question , it is just that I am curious with your purchase decision .

regards
 

Royal27

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Matt , I have been following this thread or your 505 Gibbs threads closely , please explain why you have chosen to go for a 505 Gibbs when calibers like 416 Rigby or 404 Jeff firing 400g bullets are easier and more comfortable to shoot . And these calibers are adequate for large and dangerous game as well as offer IMHO more and better options for smaller game on an African safari.

Apologies in advance for the question , it is just that I am curious with your purchase decision .

regards

Here's your answer!!!! :)

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/big-bore-addiction-group.16761/
 

matt85

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no apology needed its a fair question.

about 6 months ago when I was browsing the used guns in the local Cabelas I found a CZ 550 chambered in 505 Gibbs. the rifle was so impressive that it prompted me to start looking into the caliber, however I was quickly stopped when I found almost all rifles chambered in this cartridge were $3000+. moving forward to recent events, I was hunting around for a bolt action rifle to potentially replace my 500/416 NE double and I stumbled across Montana Rifle Company and their affordable 505 Gibbs rifle. another factor in my decision is that there is something special about cartridges in .5 and up, not sure what it is but i like the idea.

in my opinion cartridges like the 416 Rigby, 416 Remington, and 404 Jeffery are more practical African hunting cartridges. a 400gr .41-.42 caliber bullet moving at 2300fps is both easy to shoot and powerful! if i can resist the urge to buy a 458 Lott then i will buy either a 416 Rigby or a 416 Remington. i like the looks of the Winchester M70 Safari Express in 416 Remington.the reason im looking at the remington is 416 Remington brass is much cheaper and i can make it from my 375 H&H brass in a pinch

-matt
 

bassasdaindia

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Matt , thanks for your reply

have you shot your rifle yet ?

and if so how is the recoil and is the rifle manageable to shoot ?
 

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not yet, the gun should hopefully be here either late next week or the following week.

will keep you updated if my retinas detach or my shoulder dislocates.

-matt
 

bassasdaindia

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not yet, the gun should hopefully be here either late next week or the following week.

will keep you updated if my retinas detach or my shoulder dislocates.

-matt

I look forward to your post and opinion once you have received and fired your rifle.
 

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