45/70 lever action with a Hornady Interlock for Cape Buffalo

[casey]

Capstick stated the bull was shot as it's front leg was forward so all the bullet had to do was get through thin skin and the heart. He also stated it took a good bit for it to bleed out. I dont remember the shooter but I dont believe it was Capstick.

 

[Brian]

If you can't learn to shoot a cartridge that is appropriate to the game, you should find smaller animals to hunt or take up golf.

Doug,
I like that! It really cover the whole subject.
Another way that I say it is, why does a shooter who can shoot a 375 accurately, not shoot a big bore accurately? Exactly the same thing is done in shooting any rifle, hold it firmly and press the trigger.

 

[curtism1234]

At some point, zero experience with common sense > just enough experience to be scary

If you can reliably kill a buffalo with a 375hh soft, you can reliably kill a buffalo with a 45caliber bullet that penetrates 5-6 feet. Full stop, no debate needed. What keeps this topic taboo? Imo some combination of stubbornness (unwillingness to accept new technology - albeit in old tech), tradition (romance of "African safari" cartridges), and...gulp...class warfare (I do think a significant number of people across all of the internets are unwilling to accept someone bringing an old $600 Marlin rifle instead of a 5 figure double). Sorry, not sorry

 

[Doug Hamilton]

At some point, zero experience with common sense > just enough experience to be scary

If you can reliably kill a buffalo with a 375hh soft, you can reliably kill a buffalo with a 45caliber bullet that penetrates 5-6 feet. Full stop, no debate needed. What keeps this topic taboo? Imo some combination of stubbornness (unwillingness to accept new technology - albeit in old tech), tradition (romance of "African safari" cartridges), and...gulp...class warfare (I do think a significant number of people across all of the internets are unwilling to accept someone bringing an old $600 Marlin rifle instead of a 5 figure double). Sorry, not sorry

Believe what you want. Many years ago, I was Involved with a cape buffalo that refused to die after being shot several times with two different .458 Win Mags. I finally broke the bulls neck when he was about ten feet from the PH. We were both shooting older ammo, which was not up to what I use now. Even though the old ammo wasn't quite up to snuff, it was still better than any load out of a .45-70. I will.not condone the use of sub par ammo on anything that can stomp you or someone on your crew, just to.make someone with a John Wayne identify crisis happy. "Full stop, no debate needed." By the way I paid $350 for my Whitworth .458 in 1982. Class warfare? Not hardly. I did shoot another.bull two years ago almost the exact distance and angle as the first one. Again through the shoulder and heart. He went less than 25 yards and piled up dead. These are the facts, and I'm not sorry.

 

[Tradmark]

I wouldnt use a hardcast in any way shape or form. A 45/70 with solid copper solids will handily kill any buffalo in any way u choose. Better penetration and better damage than any round nose 458. Around here the better bullets get, the more marginal cartridges get. Amazing

 

[SRvet]

At some point, zero experience with common sense > just enough experience to be scary

If you can reliably kill a buffalo with a 375hh soft, you can reliably kill a buffalo with a 45caliber bullet that penetrates 5-6 feet. Full stop, no debate needed. What keeps this topic taboo? Imo some combination of stubbornness (unwillingness to accept new technology - albeit in old tech), tradition (romance of "African safari" cartridges), and...gulp...class warfare (I do think a significant number of people across all of the internets are unwilling to accept someone bringing an old $600 Marlin rifle instead of a 5 figure double). Sorry, not sorry

I agree with you mostly other than the class warfare bit. Plenty of budget priced rifles mentioned in these parts made by the likes of CZ, Winchester, Zastava, Parker Hale etc. Definitely designed for the blue collar market. Yes we all like the high value items and the doubles are something that dreams are made of but I suspect they are less common than it may seem.

 

[HankBuck]

Believe what you want. Many years ago, I was Involved with a cape buffalo that refused to die after being shot several times with two different .458 Win Mags. I finally broke the bulls neck when he was about ten feet from the PH. We were both shooting older ammo, which was not up to what I use now. Even though the old ammo wasn't quite up to snuff, it was still better than any load out of a .45-70. I will.not condone the use of sub par ammo on anything that can stomp you or someone on your crew, just to.make someone with a John Wayne identify crisis happy. "Full stop, no debate needed." By the way I paid $350 for my Whitworth .458 in 1982. Class warfare? Not hardly. I did shoot another.bull two years ago almost the exact distance and angle as the first one. Again through the shoulder and heart. He went less than 25 yards and piled up dead. These are the facts, and I'm not sorry.

@Doug Hamilton - if you and your PH both shot the same Buffalo “several times” with a .458 Win Mag and it “refused to die” - might of been the Ammo but more likely the Buff was very close, didn’t have time for the shots to take effect, or poor shot placement? Either way, it does Not support a case against the .45-70 —- the same way that incident would Not prove the .458 is a poor round for Buff. There are experienced PHs that find an .45-70 an effective Buffalo round. You disagree and You would not use it, every Hunter and PH should use a round they are confident in…. It is the decision of the PH and his Hunter to use the legal round they want….my opinion obviously. These are entertaining posts, I never thought so many hunters could try to dictate what calibers & rounds “Other Hunters use” to hunt with. The strongest opinions and opposition to certain rounds used for Buffalo don’t come from PHs but from Hunters - those that have shot/seen shot 5 to 25 buffalo vs. 100s a PH sees during their career, I find that….interesting.

 

[Brian]

I wouldnt use a hardcast in any way shape or form. A 45/70 with solid copper solids will handily kill any buffalo in any way u choose. Better penetration and better damage than any round nose 458. Around here the better bullets get, the more marginal cartridges get. Amazing

I have killed three cape buffalo with hard cast lead bullet, 21 BHN, wide flat nose. The terminal performance was the same , one shot each, perfect DRT.

 

[Flbt]

@Doug Hamilton - if you and your PH both shot the same Buffalo “several times” with a .458 Win Mag and it “refused to die” - might of been the Ammo but more likely the Buff was very close, didn’t have time for the shots to take effect, or poor shot placement? Either way, it does Not support a case against the .45-70 —- the same way that incident would Not prove the .458 is a poor round for Buff. There are experienced PHs that find an .45-70 an effective Buffalo round. You disagree and You would not use it, every Hunter and PH should use a round they are confident in…. It is the decision of the PH and his Hunter to use the legal round they want….my opinion obviously. These are entertaining posts, I never thought so many hunters could try to dictate what calibers & rounds “Other Hunters use” to hunt with. The strongest opinions and opposition to certain rounds used for Buffalo don’t come from PHs but from Hunters - those that have shot/seen shot 5 to 25 buffalo vs. 100s a PH sees during their career, I find that….interesting.

You are surprise to see hunters saying what other hunters use.
It was not long ago on this fourm. You had members wanting the government to tell you what scope size and how far you could take a shot at game.

 

[Huvius]

Wow, a 375jdj is in a different category, your mixing fruit with cordite

I’ve often thought the same when it comes to DG hunting with a handgun and even more, archery.
Folks do this all the time with little pushback, but MAN, mention the 45-70 and the long knives come out.
The 375JDJ is nothing more than a rimmed version of the 375 Rimless Express which is the same as the 9.5X56 Mannlicher, both over 100yrs old. Neither of these were considered adequate for DG but I suppose were used by settlers in Africa if the need arose.
The point is, I think, is that a hot 45-70 is every bit as capable as any straight walled handgun cartridge and I believe as or more lethal as any broad head arrow.
It just seems to generate a more vociferous opinion than those other methods.

 

[curtism1234]

Believe what you want. Many years ago, I was Involved with a cape buffalo that refused to die after being shot several times with two different .458 Win Mags. I finally broke the bulls neck when he was about ten feet from the PH. We were both shooting older ammo, which was not up to what I use now. Even though the old ammo wasn't quite up to snuff, it was still better than any load out of a .45-70. I will.not condone the use of sub par ammo on anything that can stomp you or someone on your crew, just to.make someone with a John Wayne identify crisis happy. "Full stop, no debate needed." By the way I paid $350 for my Whitworth .458 in 1982. Class warfare? Not hardly. I did shoot another.bull two years ago almost the exact distance and angle as the first one. Again through the shoulder and heart. He went less than 25 yards and piled up dead. These are the facts, and I'm not sorry.

I think that's "just enough experience to be scary"

1. Two data points are not a trend of even 1 cartridge let alone a comparison of 2
2. Of course the 458 win mag is going to be hotter than any 45/70 load because it was designed to duplicate the nitro express rounds
3. Obviously Winchester caused a huge problem for themselves on this round that plagued their marketing long after it was fixed, but the difference between good old ammo and their new ammo using the same legacy bullets is virtually zero for all intents and purposes. They only increased velocity by a miniscule amount because people were still freaking out

Now, where you do make a very fair point is with people with a John Wayne Identity crisis. If that is their reason for wanting to bring a rifle on an african buffalo hunt, then obviously shame on them. But I'm going to turn that around --- what about all the people with the Teddy Roosevelt identity crisis buying cartridges they are terrified to shoot, insisting on shooting iron sights even though they have never shot an animal with iron sights, etc. Are they not a liability to the party; they are using enough gun... And obviously I am being facetious

Now I am speaking for myself: If I've been using a Browning BLR 308 as my faithful companion for well over a decade, and I buy and take a Browning BLR 450marlin
1. I know I am acting in good faith (that should always be #1 for anyone)
2. The PH and I are on the same page before a contract is signed
3. The BLR is a platform that I know front, back, and upside down while blindfolded
4. Use the Buffalo Bore ammunition penetrating 5-6 feet, as intended and within its limitations
5. Do what the PH tells you to do

I will enjoy a fireside scotch alongside the guys with the 375 & 470 and share stories of 3 successful buffalo hunts

 

[Tradmark]

Ive seen it done and ive seen them fail on waterbuff. Heck, ive seen the 430 gr buffalo bore crack up on a cow elk shoulder. Not the norm but the solid coppers or brass dont fail.

I have killed three cape buffalo with hard cast lead bullet, 21 BHN, wide flat nose. The terminal performance was the same , one shot each, perfect DRT.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

@Doug Hamilton - if you and your PH both shot the same Buffalo “several times” with a .458 Win Mag and it “refused to die” - might of been the Ammo but more likely the Buff was very close, didn’t have time for the shots to take effect, or poor shot placement? Either way, it does Not support a case against the .45-70 —- the same way that incident would Not prove the .458 is a poor round for Buff. There are experienced PHs that find an .45-70 an effective Buffalo round. You disagree and You would not use it, every Hunter and PH should use a round they are confident in…. It is the decision of the PH and his Hunter to use the legal round they want….my opinion obviously. These are entertaining posts, I never thought so many hunters could try to dictate what calibers & rounds “Other Hunters use” to hunt with. The strongest opinions and opposition to certain rounds used for Buffalo don’t come from PHs but from Hunters - those that have shot/seen shot 5 to 25 buffalo vs. 100s a PH sees during their career, I find that….interesting.

On buffalo one, the first shot wss through the shoulder and hit the heart. Granted it was a little low and did not wreak the valves. The bull charged at the shot and the PH shot him in the chest from the front. As he went by I gave him another round behind the shoulder and the PH gave him the Texas heart shot as he went into the brush. On the follow up I shot the bull in the chest again from the front. The PH was watching through binoculars and said it wss a good hit. He death bellowed, but was still on his feet when we found him again. The PH shot and the buffalo went down. When we moved up the bull jumped up and started for the PH, whose rifle failed to feed up the next round. That's when I broke the bulls neck. Up until then, all shots were in the chest. Bad shooting was not the issue. You cannot be over gunned for buffalo, but I would be worried about being under gunned.

No one is dictating what anyone can use when they hunt, but if the OP didn't want other peoples opinions on the cartridge why did he ask the question?

 

[Brian]

Ive seen it done and ive seen them fail on waterbuff. Heck, ive seen the 430 gr buffalo bore crack up on a cow elk shoulder. Not the norm but the solid coppers or brass dont fail.

Yes, my favourite solid is the CEB Safari Solid, the NF solid and the Peregrine solid.
My cast bullets use on cape buffalo was an experiment, I never use cast lead bullets any more. However hard cast bullets will work if made right. Need enough tin so they don't splinter or crack up, need little sulphur to make the blend. ( Too much fussing for me.) My hard cast bullets that I was referring to did not "crack up". They performed about like a CEB solid, the profile of which I copied. this was a .577 NE.

 

[HankBuck]

On buffalo one, the first shot wss through the shoulder and hit the heart. Granted it was a little low and did not wreak the valves. The bull charged at the shot and the PH shot him in the chest from the front. As he went by I gave him another round behind the shoulder and the PH gave him the Texas heart shot as he went into the brush. On the follow up I shot the bull in the chest again from the front. The PH was watching through binoculars and said it wss a good hit. He death bellowed, but was still on his feet when we found him again. The PH shot and the buffalo went down. When we moved up the bull jumped up and started for the PH, whose rifle failed to feed up the next round. That's when I broke the bulls neck. Up until then, all shots were in the chest. Bad shooting was not the issue. You cannot be over gunned for buffalo, but I would be worried about being under gunned.

No one is dictating what anyone can use when they hunt, but if the OP didn't want other peoples opinions on the cartridge why did he ask the question?

@Doug Hamilton - certainly agree with:
1). “if you ask for opinions” - expect to get many.
2). You can’t be “over gunned” for Buff

 

[Brian]

Yes, my favourite solid is the CEB Safari Solid, the NF solid and the Peregrine solid.
My cast bullets use on cape buffalo was an experiment, I never use cast lead bullets any more. However hard cast bullets will work if made right. Need enough tin so they don't splinter or crack up, need little sulphur to make the blend. ( Too much fussing for me.) My hard cast bullets that I was referring to did not "crack up". They performed about like a CEB solid, the profile of which I copied. this was a .577 NE.

Tradmark, I am definitely with you, no cast bullets for on cape buffalo. I was just compelled to say, academically, that a properly mixed hard cast bullet will work but why bother with the excellent/better options of buffalo bullets available. Cheers. Brian

 

[Tradmark]

Yessir. Its interesting, ive tested both in texas and in africa revolver loads on cape buff and waterbuff are supposed to have just passed on through but none did. Then my busters did. Actually had a frame do (while not hitting big bone). Till solid coppers, then they just sizzle on through. All the monometals and aframes have changed what is appropriate cartridge wise in africa. I also feel i can kill well with cast, and i agree with you on the “best” option.

 

[DrBob]

Cor Bon used one of their Sledgehammer solids .... 405 grain.... passed through one cape into another with side shot. Best penetration speed was 1500 fps. This is nuts. This is the definition of killing power ...just poking holes in the right spot but not even close to a stopping round. Since Roy Weatherby killed a Cape with a 257, I guess a lot of cartridges can kill but everyone is in play when the shot is fired. Also, shooting a buff unaware is a totally weaker animal than the standard adrenalin dump tank.

 

[Tradmark]

Whats a stopper round and what makes it so?